The return of the people who don't know what a Defender is...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-17 15:54 in Defenders
Rebirth is stretching it a bit. I consider Aid Other as stretching things but it could lend to me being able to say yes when people ask "R U Healer?"
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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How about this guy?
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Rebirth is stretching it a bit. I consider Aid Other as stretching things but it could lend to me being able to say yes when people ask "R U Healer?"
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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You're confusing an attack on the message with an attack on the messenger. I have nothing against you or your friend, and I agree that a MoKeyes run needs significant healing. I did not agree with the exclusion of people who either weren't an Empath or didn't have a t3 Rebirth power, because it overlooked the most important facet of attempting the run: that someone be a decent player.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
Well, I am going to stop you right there because said person is a friend of mine who I have come to appreciate as being a very solid player. Perhaps his methods are not perfect, but they work. There are those people who I would agree that are incompetent but he is not one of them. So, you can just stop. You want to attack me? That's fine. I've done my share of stupid stuff. Want to pick on people that are good friends? Just get out now.
FYI, meeting the requirements he wanted isn't exactly that hard to do. And, given the fact that a good bit of the damage in the last part is unresistable/unavoidable, I, too, would err on the side of having ample healing/regeneration to compensate. Come to think of it, I am guessing you are probably mad because you couldn't get in on a good team like his where you know the leader is actually trying to make it possible for everyone to win. |
To claim that I'm somehow mad because I "couldn't get in on a good team" is just silly. I get in on a good team when and where I want to do something. I can't remember the last time - if ever - I was denied an invite on the basis that I wasn't a healer or didn't have power X (be it to a trial or whatever). However, seeing such requirements being thrown around irrespective of the core goal of a team irks me.
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So, you calling said person an idiot isn't an attack on the messenger? That seems to be what I saw...|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Tempest
You're confusing an attack on the message with an attack on the messenger. I have nothing against you or your friend, and I agree that a MoKeyes run needs significant healing. I did not agree with the exclusion of people who either weren't an Empath or didn't have a t3 Rebirth power, because it overlooked the most important facet of attempting the run: that someone be a decent player.
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| There was some Keyes trial forming on Freedumb where the requirement to join was "Must be 53 with t3 Rebirth, or a Healer". I swear people were smarter before I left. |
He was looking for people who were +3 and had either T3 Rebirth and/or significant healing.
I do not see how that precluded anyone from the group unless you did not meet said requirement(s). Even then, I don't recall the people in the group being poor players. All of them were definitely people you'd want to have on an MoKeyes attempt. I believe all went well until Anti-matter pulled off a time freeze, obliteration beam, and disintegration all at the same time.
The only person on the group i didn't really prefer seeing was the guy running a "pure empathy" build. Those kind of builds just turn me off. I'd be bored to death on any group other than Keyes.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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If anyone asks my Leadership/Vengeance toons if they're healers, I respond, yes, I have an AoE heal, I keep it on autofire, and I think everyone should take it and put it on autofire.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Rebirth is stretching it a bit. I consider Aid Other as stretching things but it could lend to me being able to say yes when people ask "R U Healer?"
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I've actually had a couple Empaths who don't really bother with their other powers quit teams on me because "I'm bored, someone take DMG already."
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I had a tel this morning while I was just editing my costume on my Emp / Energy thought Id share with you...
"Hi, im making a team, are u a healer, if so wud u like 2 join us?"
I kid you not! That is a ver batum of what I had, the moment I saw it, I thought of this thread.
IT HAS BEGUN!
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I'm not sure its practical to advertise openings on a trial for people who don't suck.
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Originally Posted by Midnight_Tempest
You're confusing an attack on the message with an attack on the messenger. I have nothing against you or your friend, and I agree that a MoKeyes run needs significant healing. I did not agree with the exclusion of people who either weren't an Empath or didn't have a t3 Rebirth power, because it overlooked the most important facet of attempting the run: that someone be a decent player.
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Sure it is. Make an advert saying you are forming an iTrial and only want people who are competent. Anyone who replies is someone you don't want.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure its practical to advertise openings on a trial for people who don't suck.
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You mean it's back? I honestly don't think it ever really left. After levelling my main to 50 I learned to /hide most of the time. In general, even when you're an empath, any team asking for a healer is one you want to run from, and run screaming.
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I had a tel this morning while I was just editing my costume on my Emp / Energy thought Id share with you...
"Hi, im making a team, are u a healer, if so wud u like 2 join us?" I kid you not! That is a ver batum of what I had, the moment I saw it, I thought of this thread. IT HAS BEGUN! |
I've actually been yelled at to heal more on my empathy, mainly because the leader (of course a tanker) liked seeing green numbers, and thought if they weren't there i was being lazy and leeching.
Ironically enough, noones green bars (or even blue bars for that matter) where moving much due to fortitude preventing people from getting hit, and the RAs and ABs being used to top off those who liked to soak alphas. I really do find +regen to be much more useful then straight out heals.
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I saw that one
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Originally Posted by Midnight_Tempest
There was some Keyes trial forming on Freedumb where the requirement to join was "Must be 53 with t3 Rebirth, or a Healer".
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Yes, if you're on a team where someone says they need a healer, you know you're in big trouble.|
Originally Posted by LadyMage
You mean it's back? I honestly don't think it ever really left. After levelling my main to 50 I learned to /hide most of the time. In general, even when you're an empath, any team asking for a healer is one you want to run from, and run screaming.
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I was on a pickup ITF today that was not going at all well. Three players kept disconnecting, and two ultimately never came back.
After mission two one of the players said, "Hey, invite that healer over there." I knew then that we were doomed, that they didn't understand so many things at so many levels. But it was too late to do anything about it.
At this point there was me (a Fire/Thermal controller), two scrappers, a tank, a fire brute that kept dying and a PB. I struggled through half of the third mission but ultimately left as well. They kept getting themselves killed by intentionally aggroing multiple spawns, and then insisted on fighting in three or four groups separated by at least 50 yards (some behind obstacles and out of my line of sight), making it impossible for me to debuff multiple enemies, have my buffs hit more than one or two targets, or use my area heal on them. All the loose mobs running around constantly aggroed on me as well. I other words, they did everything to make a "healer's" -- or a debuffer's -- life total hell.
To their credit no one whined about how bad my "healing" was. They weren't ill-willed or bitchy. They just didn't seem to know how the game works.
And the reason they don't know is that they've seemed to only have played melee or blaster type characters. Every player should be required to play at least two different defenders or corruptors before they play any another character.
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What you believe you read was not my intention, and since amused frustration lacks a font, it's not easy to convey in text.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
So, you calling said person an idiot isn't an attack on the messenger? That seems to be what I saw...
Regardless of whether it is/isn't an attack, you are still missing the point and allowing your own snotty attitude to miss it... He was looking for people who were +3 and had either T3 Rebirth and/or significant healing. I do not see how that precluded anyone from the group unless you did not meet said requirement(s). Even then, I don't recall the people in the group being poor players. All of them were definitely people you'd want to have on an MoKeyes attempt. I believe all went well until Anti-matter pulled off a time freeze, obliteration beam, and disintegration all at the same time. The only person on the group i didn't really prefer seeing was the guy running a "pure empathy" build. Those kind of builds just turn me off. I'd be bored to death on any group other than Keyes. |
You seem to be hung up on the idea that I deliberately attacked a friend of yours, and are using that as an excuse to be progressively venomous. I laughed at a faceless suggestion that all the people who could be useful in a MoKeys would fall into stringent set of requirements X/Y/Z.
I completely understand what the comment was searching for in team composition, I simply don't agree with it. I agree that people who meet those requirements are more likely to result in a successful run, but not with the connotations of exclusion.
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| I'm not sure its practical to advertise openings on a trial for people who don't suck. |
Next question: can you stay close to someone familiar with the trial?
If forced to choose between such a person and someone with all of their incarnate work done, in a vacuum, I would choose the person with the incarnate work completed. I'm just not willing to utterly ignore the idea that someone new is also someone useless, I haven't found that line of reasoning to be nearly as accurate as its converse.
I can't say anything about Keyes, since I haven't run it, but it's been quite a while since I've come across people who completely misunderstand what Defenders do. There are occasionally people calling for healzors, but I've never gotten complaints on my Dark Defender, for example. It's even been a while since my Trick Arrow Defender's gotten crap for not having a healing arrow. (Which seems to be a joke that just about every Trick Arrow Defender has come up with independently... 
)
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Hell. I consider my Empathy Defender to be pretty strictly a team-built character, and I still don't have problems. He only has five of his attacks, but I use them often, and when things are rolling along well, I find myself running into groups first to use Power Build Up + Short Circuit, and laugh at all the enemies that can't attack anymore. And then I go back to alternating between blasting at runners and maintaining buffs. I may not have heavily invested in my secondaries on that character, but if I like to use the powers I do have.
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Originally Posted by DrGemini
I actually dislike teaming with people who play Empaths and don't take/slot their secondary powers at least a little bit. Even if you don't use your attacks a lot, thanks to IO bonuses you can get quite a few nifty bonuses from slotting your attacks. |
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Oh I understand the value. As I've I've said I've teamed with several good Traps users who have figured out how to get the best use out of the powers despite the flaws. But as I've said, I'm admittedly bad with Traps.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ya know, having played a /traps MM since issue 7, i feel you don't quite understand the value that /traps provides.
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That being said even the best Traps user can't get any good use out of them during a Lambda because, like I said, he jumps away. Just about the only way you could use Traps well in a Lambda would be not to set them where Marauder is currently standing and instead run off and set them where he's going to be Jumping to. Marauder always follows the same jumping pattern so if you can predict where he's going to be before he gets there you can have him jump into your traps instead of away from them.
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| Seeker Drones -> This is a ranged debuff tool, and if your not using it as such, your using it wrong. Its meant to soak the alpha, then debuff the enemys around the explosion. While you can't always control who gets debuffed by it, it can soak some extra damage then explode thus reducing any other incoming damage that is dealt. It is also able to double stack thus doubling its effectiveness as a -dmg and -tohit tool. You also get 2 of them, which while they both spawn in the same place, may pick different targets and with the 5 foot blast radius could debuff an entire group without causing anyone to take any damage. This works wonders on BAFs when you have everything clustered together and on Lambdas to soak the alpha for the weapons cache and containment chamber phase. |
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| Not including those 4 powers into a /traps build hurts a lot more then it helps, especially on a defender where the debuff values are even higher. While i understand that the league leader was a moron and just wanted 'flashy green numbers' there are plenty other things you could be doing to benefit the team without having to have flashy green numbers. and hey, rebirth is always available so you can provide both passive +regen and Instand Healing level +regen with a hit of your rebirth power. |
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Lets say I am playing my Dark Defender and someone says not to attack just heal. I would then assume by that they mean't blasts, I'd have to ask myself am I letting my attack chain get in the way of twilight grasp. I have never had this issue, on a team whereby someone asks me to do no more than heal, I guess I am on the right server.
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I actually haven't had Leadership on my Dark that long. I picked it up as a replacement to Fitness when that set became inherent. I like the added team buffs as a way of making him even more useful as if he wasn't bad @$$ enough already.
I freaking love my DDD.
I have an Trick Arrow and Archery Defender.
I got blind invited into a team and it didn't took long before the leader asked why I don't heal. My response was: "I'm not a healer, I just have arrows. But if you get defeated I can put you out of your misery."
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www.CoHmmunity.net
*Happy squee*
I'm so glad I'm not the only one! I have so many different defenders that are basically sitting all by their lonesome because people didn't want them because they weren't "emp" defenders!
Heck, moment some people from different groups I teamed with found out I had an emp, the moment I'd log on it was "Hey, log on your emp we need help!" And then if I DID play the emp, if I didn't heal fast enough of keep everyone CM'd.....yeah.... I actually started every team with a disclaimer of "I will not tolerate any of the following: Begging for heals, yelling at me if I don't heal you, yelling at me for buffs, spam telling me for things, general jackassery aimed at me, yelling at me for letting you die. If you die, it means you were being stupid, not because I "didn't heal you". Stay with the group, use your brain, and all will be well."
My husband plays a Traps/DP defender and he and my emp happened to be on a team together and the leader didn't know that we were playing together. At one point, when I was healing my husband, who was keeping the traps going and thus keeping us from being overrun, I was told in tells by the leader to "Stop and heal the useful ones". I told him I would heal whoever is doing the most work, and that I was watching people's health bars. He again threatened me, so I went "fine" and dropped team, along with my husband.
I was later told that the TF failed horribly after we left. >:3
But yeah, most of my gripes are as an emp, though I'm discovering the joys right now of trick arrow/archery.
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You made up a word and I like it, jackassery, how do we get this added in to the Dictionary so it can be a real word?|
Originally Posted by Firemoth
Heck, moment some people from different groups I teamed with found out I had an emp, the moment I'd log on it was "Hey, log on your emp we need help!" And then if I DID play the emp, if I didn't heal fast enough of keep everyone CM'd.....yeah.... I actually started every team with a disclaimer of "I will not tolerate any of the following: Begging for heals, yelling at me if I don't heal you, yelling at me for buffs, spam telling me for things, general jackassery aimed at me, yelling at me for letting you die. If you die, it means you were being stupid, not because I "didn't heal you". Stay with the group, use your brain, and all will be well."
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On a more serious note yes I have been on several teams with Empaths who has similar binds only shorter and more to the point. "If you're not being healed it means you're being an idiot and running out of range. I'm not going to chase you and risk letting someone who is actually with the team die because of you being stupid."
The three signs of a good Empathy Defender.
1. They actually use powers other than heals.
2. They heal the people who actually stay close enough to get healed and ignore the idiots who run off on their own.
3. The word "Healer" is seen as a derogatory term and will not be tolerated.
The three signs of an idiot.
1. They think Defenders only heal and do nothing else.
2. They run away from the Defender and wander why they never get healed.
3. They name their Empathy Defender "Healer" and make life harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously.
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Got it just fine, my own point being that, if a team leader doesn't bother looking at the powersets of a Defender he's just added to his team, straight random selection will favor him not getting what he's expecting which, in my experience, is a Def with single-target healing. Surprised you didn't get that. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
My point was that anyone that can heal can be viewed as a healer. Surprised you didn't get that.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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I'm going to build one now, just so I can steal that. |
Originally Posted by XelosTi
I have an Trick Arrow and Archery Defender.
I got blind invited into a team and it didn't took long before the leader asked why I don't heal. My response was: "I'm not a healer, I just have arrows. But if you get defeated I can put you out of your misery." |
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
I personally have no problem with somebody referring to my Empathy Defender as a "healer" that is what he does, he restores hit points. Though, I wouldn't say the title fits well on his head.
Ive never been told by anybody to heal more, generally if health bars are not moving down seriously much, I go into blaster more and throw some shots into the ring myself otherwise what am I gonna do? Float there waiting for somebody to get hurt?
If somebody is on, or at, nearly full health then I am better served assisting in the defeat of the remaining enemies.
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I personally have no problem with somebody referring to my Empathy Defender as a "healer" that is what he does, he restores hit points. Though, I wouldn't say the title fits well on his head.
Ive never been told by anybody to heal more, generally if health bars are not moving down seriously much, I go into blaster more and throw some shots into the ring myself otherwise what am I gonna do? Float there waiting for somebody to get hurt? If somebody is on, or at, nearly full health then I am better served assisting in the defeat of the remaining enemies. |
My Plant/Emp has been told to "just heal" on a car-crash PuG before. My response is usually to quietly allow them to die in order to fire off a power-boosted Vengeance and then rez and buff them. That usually sorts out any survivability issues we were having...
I do Fort and AB them afterwards as an unspoken thank you for selflessly & silently taking one for the team though.
I identify "healer" as a role not an AT. Just like a "tank" is a role and not necessarily an AT. Plenty of other ATs other than defenders can pick up the role of healer as needed. Actually, on many of the trials I join it appears that defenders are in the minority. Out of 24 members there may be 4 defenders total. The point I am making is, yes the trial leader failed in assuming just because you were a defender you should be healing.
Anyone can lead a trail, but not everyone is good at it. Personally, I either form my own or watch for names of players that I know are capable.
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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This. I've gotten on teams before with my dark/ or kin/ and had the leader go searching for a "real" healer anyway, since apparently a power doesn't count as a true heal if it can miss. |
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
Got it just fine, my own point being that, if a team leader doesn't bother looking at the powersets of a Defender he's just added to his team, straight random selection will favor him not getting what he's expecting which, in my experience, is a Def with single-target healing.
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While plenty of primary and secondarys offer 'healing' i would really only consider empathy, thermal and pain to be 'healers' due to their wide range of healing powers (single target, and AoE healing)
Granted, i still find healing to be the last resort, and i really find +regen to be infinitly better then just straight healing, but for high burst unresistable damage very few things can beat a power boost absorb pain or that /pain equal. Just gotta make sure you hit some form of +regen on yourself, or else you'll die shortly after saving whoever you just saved