MA DPS rerworked chain?

It only has one, where as most sets have one additional cone-like power.

As for AoEs, I'd give it to Spin which appears to be balanced without Follow Up figured in like the rest of the attacks in Claws.

Whirling Sword: 30.2 Damage, 14s recharge, cast 2.904s
Spin: 41.2* Damage, 9.2s recharge, cast 2.64s
Typhoon's Edge: 31.2* Damage, 12s recharge, cast 2.504s
Thunder Strike: 39.3 Damage, 18s recharge, cast 3.432s
Fire Sword Circle: 43.6 Damage, 20s recharge, cast 2.904s
The Lotus Drops: 46.1 Damage, 14s recharge, cast 1.98s
Burst: 29.6* Damage, 15s recharge, cast 2.904s
Dragon's Tail: 47.3 Damage, 14s recharge, cast 1.716s
Spine Burst: 25.9 Damage, 16s recharge, cast 3.168s

* Has a constant damage boost power which can double stack

From what I can tell it's:

Spin by what appears to be a large margin
Typhoon's Edge
Dragon's Tail
The Lotus Drops (only by a bit)
Fire Sword Circle and Thunder Strike (the recharge kills them)
Burst (depends on how often the Kinetic damage boost is active)
Whirling Sword
Spine Burst

If you need the mitigation and not just damage then Dragon's Tail climbs the chart, but I would still put it under Spin I think.



The nice thing about Dragon's Tail, and similar sets that don't use a damage boost as part of base DPS is that you can time Build Up with your AoEs.

You're right. OK, that's a trivial change by moving the proc to Blinding Feint and with the saved slot, adding a Gladiator's Armor to keep the soft cap.

247 DPS

Now, endurance use has climbed a bit and accuracy has gone down, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it's good enough.

Any other suggestions? Katana or Dual Blades.

I will point out that I was not trying to make the ultimate builds here, but rather to compare top end damage with very similar builds. The Gaussian move seems in the spirit of the thing. But then, at this point, the Gaussian set is probably a poor use of slots, so we should do something else, but then I'm straying further and further from the template, so I'm not sure I should go further. I'm sure we could do similar optimizations on Katana if we're straying from template, though picking up a similar damage boost might be difficult. Or maybe it wouldn't be. I think I only picked up about a 7.5% damage enhancement with the Gaussian proc, and on a set already highly damage enhanced. Katana is less damage enhanced, so a couple more damage bonuses might do the trick, and we have a ton of recharge to trade. But trading that recharge isn't really in the spirit of what I was doing.

For that matter, adding incarnate powers will kind of invalidate my whole analysis. Since at the high end we'd be taking incarnate powers, these builds and analysis are really yesterday's news. We should really build some modern builds to compare. That's not really something I'm chomping at the bit to do, though.

I think the Gaussian's proc belongs in Tactics, but having 1 proc in Blinding Feint while having 2 procs in Soaring Dragon is wrong. Also, you have the purple Damage enhancement over the Damage/Recharge one in Golden Dragonfly, but you didn't do the same for Sweeping Strike. I think you should take Musculature into account anyway.

The shorter activation time for the DB chain also helps in terms of -res stacking and Reactive. As for Blinding Feint not lasting long enough, that's not the case with enough recharge.

With the Sweeping Strike slotting fixed and a damage proc instead of Gaussian proc in Blinding Feint:

246 DPS

Dual Blades IS faster, but only by the time it takes to use Build Up:

DB: 4 attacks in 5.434 seconds = 1.36 seconds per attack
Katana: 20 attacks in 28.38 seconds = 1.42 seconds per attack

Every little bit helps, of course.

As for not taking Musculature into account, as I said, this was all pre-incarnate. I'm not saying it shouldn't be there; I'm just saying why it isn't. Maybe I'll plug in the incarnate powers later. But wouldn't Musculature benefit Katana more since Katana is getting more of its damage from base damage? (Edit: very quick possibly mistaken Musculature calculation - DB = 270, Katana = 268)

As for Blinding Feint not lasting long enough, I'm talking about possibly losing 0.7 seconds, and there's only a couple 0.077 second gaps. You'd lose the double stack on itself regardless. And where are you getting more recharge from? Ageless? Not what I'd choose for sure except as a theoretical exercise. Anyway, I could be completely wrong about the activation thing anyway, which is why I kept the calculations as is with the double stack on all attacks.

That seems close enough to accurate. And I do personally use Ageless when I don't need rebirth on my db/elec, which removes more of the pause. (I don't need barrier and definitely don't need clarion...)

I agree here -- it also animates a lot faster than the other Scrapper PBOEs

Everything around you going down like bowling pins every few seconds is also fun.

I think one problem is the radius feels small. Especially compared to things like Footstomp or even Fireball from epics.

I only had DT and Shield Charge on my MA/SD, and it didn't feel like I could chain enough AOE so I added Fireball and now there is a killer 3-aoe chain after which DT has recharged.

It's the normal DPS chain.

The first post in the pylon thread was a Katana/Willpower doing 194 DPS while using Divine Avalanche. Assuming it was properly marked as a pre-incarnate time, BrokenPrey did 220 on his Katana/Super Reflexes in the pylon thread. I don't see 240 DPS on a non-incarnate Katana, but I believe it's possible based on the calculations. So unless you see an error in the calculations, yes, I think it's fair to say that Katana can get 240 DPS.

The build I used would probably get killed by the pylon since it has no heal. It's also pre-inherent fitness, so Aid Self could probably be added. In practice, I'd add Rebirth instead of Aid Self. Either would take away from DPS a bit, but by the time we're talking Rebirth, we're also talking Musculature and somewhat higher DPS instead of lower.

Hey thanks for showing up to the party...was getting tired of trying to explain stuff I didn't uderstand myself. I just know you and Arcana, and a few other math guru's (Serrate) are usually pretty right, if y'all aren't y'all have that build in math code to correct the others' mistakes, and purely academically not personally. So, thanks to all here, keeping it non flame, and making this purely an excercise in finding the truth for DPS as it were.

Some quick questions:
Is it better to have the build up proc in Blinding Fient or something like Tactics/Focused Acc?
Is it better to have same as above in a BU power like Focused Chi or Tact/FA?
With the introduction of Incarnate Trials, does extra defense pass the 45 threshold give you any value? If I'm using manuevers I have 47-Melee, 48-Ranged, and 47-AOE.

What can I do to impove these builds for AV soloing? I plan on taking AGELESS to shore up my +Recharge and End issues.


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From a DPS perspective, we've seen that it's better to use the build up proc in Blinding Feint. Putting it in Tactics is a trade off for the set bonuses. You don't need to make that trade off here, so for a DPS monster build, I'd put it in Blinding Feint. For most other builds, I'd stick with completing the Gaussian set in Tactics or Focused Accuracy.

It is better to have the build up proc in a toggle than in Focused Chi. It has a chance to activate every 10 seconds in the toggle vs. 30 seconds or whatever in Focus Chi. The counter argument would be that when you use Focus Chi, that is EXACTLY when you will benefit most from the buff (unless you're just spamming it in an AV fight, say). I'd stick with a toggle, though.

With the incarnate trials, you may want to shoot for 59% defense on a Super Reflexes, though you may also find that with all the defense buffs flying around, that's normally wasted. I wouldn't really be satisfied with 45% these days, though.

No time to review the build right now.

This comment baffles me... there's always going to be at least 1 target in range of AAO when you're using a melee attack. How does no +dam beat some +dam?

...

Relating to MA top chains... fire blast with a purple proc is better then crane kick or cobra strike. MA not having a redraw makes this a good option... it does, however, take even more extreme levels of recharge to run SK>FB>SK>CAK gapless.. (which actually may retort my earlier comment of how SR could be better then shield... as SR might actually be able to get that much recharge)

I'd really want to understand what other +dmg effects and procs were running, either though IO bonuses or Assault etc. Because honestly how can maybe adding the Fury -RES proc make that much difference in dps? I mean, a chain is a chain -- if you can run the GC-SD-GC-GD chain, what could be causing a variance of +/- 40dps (assuming pre-incarnate).

<Blinks>

Really? That doesn't sound right. Are you using Mid's? If so, that would be why.

I've had this conversation with Auroxis before.

The main idea is that SR can get softctapped easier than SD can,at which point you can focus on +Damage bonuses (and more rech) and help close the gap of AAO.


However, it remains to be seen if this allows for potential parity across the board (which I don't believe is true and Auroxis has not outright asserted) and is solely the province of DB/SR, which is where Auroxis' main assertion is.

At the same time, Auroxis has often just said "SR" and not "DB/SR" which are two very different arguments in my opinion and I simply don't agree that SR can "easily pull ahead" seeing that AAO with 1 target in range is (correct me if I'm wrong) +20% damage (19.38% in mids).

1. SD can't use Katana and DB, the best DPS primaries besides a well saturated DM.

2. SR has extra recharge, which means either more DPS with Dual Blades or room for a bit more damage bonuses from IO sets.

3. SR is easier to softcap, which means you can get a bit more damage bonuses from IO sets.

All this adds up to more DPS with SR than with SD, if only one target is in range.

I suspect the reason it works out that way is that it means you're applying more proc chances per second overall and getting about the same base DPA out of the power to begin with. Further, you already have hecatomb slotted in storm kick so this adds another purple proc to the chain where there otherwise could not have been one.

Sounds like a fun chain but I know my own MA scrapper could never pull it off while keeping all the defense I want.

Yes, but only if you are using Katana and DB, which says more about Katana and DB than it does about SR.


Unless you can literally show that you can do this across the board with primaries that both SR & SD can use.


You need minimum +20% Damage bonuses from sets before parity with 1 Target in range.

On top of this, there are plenty of sets that are useful for SD that grant +Dam bonuses: Makos, GSFC, Red Fortune, Performance Shifter, Obliteration, Touch of Death.


I agree with you on the recharge front, SR has SD beat there by a mile.



On the other hand, SD has SR beat by a mile in AoE.

It has SC for one, and for another SR will not have parity with AAO in an AoE situation, which by definition means you have target saturation.

Let me correct my phrasing then:

All this adds up to more DPS potential with SR than with SD, if only one target is in range.

I simply cannot agree that having no access to Katana and DB shouldn't be considered when comparing the DPS potential of SR and SD.


This is definitely true, though I've grown to appreciate DB's AoE with Sweeping Strike(which is damn handy during the hostages stage in the BAF trial).

RedTomax has FireBlast (Scrapper epic) at 1.32 dmg but Cobra Strike at 2.058. Does the purple proc really make up that difference?

Yeah.... Fireblast only looks good in MIDs

Is this ingame?
Thought for sure it was 50 something