Quote:
People who have looked at the chains carefully say that even if you apply EC's crit buff in the best possible way in an attack chain it will still end up slightly lower than the best chain without it. It is very close in the optimal case, almost unnoticable, but still very slightly lower.|
Originally Posted by Stryph
Kind of a bummer too, I thought it'd be like Parry or Divine Avalanche and it should... but it's not.
So out of curiosity, Eagle's Claw shouldn't be used in an attack chain because of the slow animation? |
However, that is the single target case. Its virtually always a good thing to use it ahead of Dragon's Tail if you can hit multiple targets with DT, because MA has no other AoEs and the crit boost on DT is significantly higher than the small increase in single target damage you'd have by not using EC.
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...right. I was saying to use eye of the magus instead of hibernate during those periods. At the recharge cap that should be possible too an negate the need to do zero damage for half a minute... Is there something else you are pointing to in my post, cause none of what I said disagrees with your statement?
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
At the absolute recharge cap Elude recharges in 200 seconds and has 180 second duration. So without something like Burnout that bypasses the recharge cap and just insta-recharges Elude, there is no amount of recharge that can get Elude to be perma. And since Burnout itself cannot be up every time Elude crashes, at some point you will have an Elude crash and at least twenty seconds you will have to cover with something. But you might be able to have Burnout available every two Elude cycles, which means you can get two Elude runs back to back once, then have to deal with the crash, and then get two again. Something like Hibernate will still be necessary for the times Burnout isn't available, which is about every other time.
|
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My calculations say EoM cannot get close enough to cover those holes cyclically. You could cover every other one *outside* of Burnout, which would still leave one crash every three Elude cycles uncovered.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
...right. I was saying to use eye of the magus instead of hibernate during those periods. At the recharge cap that should be possible too an negate the need to do zero damage for half a minute... Is there something else you are pointing to in my post, cause none of what I said disagrees with your statement?
|
Theoretically speaking, EoM could be buffed to be fast enough: you'd need its base 1500s recharge reduced to about 420 seconds, plus or minus. However, that would require 3.58 total recharge, and without slotting that means it has to all come from global recharge buffs (even Alpha Spiritual won't help here). With Hasten and with quickness, you have 90%. You need +168% global recharge buffs without Hasten or quickness to get there. That would be difficult. The rule of five cap for LotG (+7.5% each: possible) plus purple sets (+10% each: also possible but tricky) plus 5% buffs (possible from sources like CI, but getting very tight now) plus 7.5% buffs (I don't even see how) would be 150% if you could possibly get that many.
In fact, because most recharge invention set buffs are 5-tier bonuses, in effect except for the LotGs the recharge bonuses described above account for 75 enhancements in a build and the LotGs bring that total up to 80. We're running up near the theoretical limits of how much recharge the invention system itself is capable of giving up regardless of powerset combination.
It seems theoretically possible in terms of the recharge cap, but not theoretically possible in terms of the possible sources of recharge a scrapper could tap within their own build (if you could be constantly speed buffed that would get you in range with a build with enough recharge). With +150% recharge as described above, plus Hasten, plus Quickness, you'd have a total of +240% global recharge, or 3.4 recharge total. That would reduce EoM to about 441s recharge. That would be 21 seconds short, plus or minus a couple of seconds due to activations, or about the duration of the next crash it had to cover.
The numbers come from the fact that if we presume Burnout gives us two Eludes consecutively, EoM must recharge faster than the amount of time protected under two Eludes and EoM itself. EoM itself can grant 60 seconds of protection, which means EoM has to recharge in 60+180+180 = 420 seconds to be up fast enough. 1500/420 = 3.571 = 357.1% recharge = +257.1% recharge. Factoring in cast times and rounding up, we get +258% recharge.
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I can see that a 38% to 43% crit chance would be pretty damn good but it might be worth noting that if you do have the best single target chain, adding EC before DT means you've taken EC for the sole purpose of boosting your aoe. Do you slot it as an attack or do you leave it with just an acc/dam/end/rech in it? How often will you find yourself wanting to spend an additional 2.5 seconds frozen in place and unable to reposition before the 1.5 seconds you spend on dragon's tail? Not trying to say that it isn't worth considering but it does come with some trade offs. On the other hand if you skip EC you have severely limited your ability to float daintily in the air.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
People who have looked at the chains carefully say that even if you apply EC's crit buff in the best possible way in an attack chain it will still end up slightly lower than the best chain without it. It is very close in the optimal case, almost unnoticable, but still very slightly lower.
However, that is the single target case. Its virtually always a good thing to use it ahead of Dragon's Tail if you can hit multiple targets with DT, because MA has no other AoEs and the crit boost on DT is significantly higher than the small increase in single target damage you'd have by not using EC. |
Yeah.... its for the pretty... 
Quote:
If you have decided to sacrifice EC for the best possible MA chain then of course there's no question about using it. But as I mentioned, the cost of using EC in a single target attack chain is not large compared to the optimal single target chain, and the benefit under AoE conditions is moderately high, so in my opinion that makes it the better balanced configuration.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I can see that a 38% to 43% crit chance would be pretty damn good but it might be worth noting that if you do have the best single target chain, adding EC before DT means you've taken EC for the sole purpose of boosting your aoe. Do you slot it as an attack or do you leave it with just an acc/dam/end/rech in it? How often will you find yourself wanting to spend an additional 2.5 seconds frozen in place and unable to reposition before the 1.5 seconds you spend on dragon's tail? Not trying to say that it isn't worth considering but it does come with some trade offs. On the other hand if you skip EC you have severely limited your ability to float daintily in the air.
|
The cast time of EC does significantly impact the DPA of the power when looking at single target output, but the actual hazard of being in an attack animation one second longer than average tend to be overemphasized. If you find yourself in a lot of situations where everything can be fine before you activate EC, but it can all go very badly for you before you exit EC, you need to dial down your difficulty.
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The entire set is for the pretty. Its not a min/maxer's paradise.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Yeah.... its for the pretty...
|
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I dunno, I'm finding MA/DA/Blaze to be an almost abusively good combination. Then again, as it is the first character I've really broken the bank on, maybe I'd have been just as impressed with anything else given the same investment.
It damn sure wouldn't have looked as good though.
So then what if you use ageless t4 (no portion of which would be lost for eye) and added in geas during one of the tier 9 activations to apply to eye's recharge? Even if it's a couple of seconds off I still might try it.
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My comment on that would be that you'd probably get annoyed pretty quickly if you actually had to fire ageless every single time it was up just to maintain your defensive chain. At this point you're juggling PB, hasten, elude, eye, burnout and ageless. Am I forgetting any? Do you still have any animation time left for attacks?
Quote:
Well, ok this lunatic build actually puts Elude at almost the recharge cap I believe:|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
So then what if you use ageless t4 (no portion of which would be lost for eye) and added in geas during one of the tier 9 activations to apply to eye's recharge? Even if it's a couple of seconds off I still might try it.
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Code:
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And one problem with my hypothetical build is that it would be tricky to actually fit burnout in it. You would have to do something like replace lucky and tough to fit in Burnout (assuming it requires two powers as prereqs) which is doable (tough is actually in there as a sort of placeholder for burnout anyway) but that brings up another glitch in the build. With passives so under slotted your defense debuff resistance is only high because Elude is up and has a lot of it. While Elude is up you will still have to run at least two toggles if you want capped debuff resistance. And if you drop lucky and squeeze burnout in here, while Elude is down and you are relying on EoM as your primary protection, your DDR will be about 79%. Not bad, but not up to SR standards.
There's also the small problem of paying for it. Even for the very rich, this is a kind of pricey build. But its within the realm of possibility I suppose.
What's interesting about this build is that virtually every single slot, and every single discretionary slot is focused on recharge. I believe it has 5 LotGs, 5 purple +10% recharge bonuses, 5 +5% recharge bonuses (the most common kind) and three +7.5% recharge bonuses (and 1 6.25% and 1 3.75% buff). I'm not sure where you go to get more recharge.
If anyone actually intends to build and play this thing, please report back. I'm pretty sure I'm not building it any time soon, as curious as I am. A Dark Melee scrapper could slot one more Panacea maybe (you'd pull slots from Elude and Hasten), which opens the door to getting up to about 242.5% global recharge. I think with that and Ageless, you might actually be able to close the EoM->Elude->Burnout->Elude gap, but by only about five seconds including cast times. Your margin for error activating four powers at just the right times would be about one second per power on average.
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See if you can fit in SM. Could buy you 10+ seconds on the Elude crash, course your defense has to be 59+ while it is active.
edit:
quick question here... Eye of the Magus only cover type defense or does it cover positional as well? Have not actually used it nor do I have it on any of my char. Could run into some issue not getting to 59% type defense.
I was thinking something more along the lines of this (sorry still in /elec armor mode). If Burnout does end up requiring two prereqs instead of one, then I could drop conductive shield, though that partially defeats the purpose. Note I am not well versed in claws, but is FU>Focus>Slash the best chain?
Code:
Edit: and ya, I am actually thinking about making this. Oh, and don't forget to include geas of the kind ones (not at the same time as eye of the magus, so it doesn't cancel out the defense).
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Quote:
EoM is +DEF(all except psi) and upon checking that excludes the positional types.|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
See if you can fit in SM. Could buy you 10+ seconds on the Elude crash, course your defense has to be 59+ while it is active.
edit: quick question here... Eye of the Magus only cover type defense or does it cover positional as well? Have not actually used it nor do I have it on any of my char. Could run into some issue not getting to 59% type defense. |
As to Shadow Meld, its only 15 seconds long so its not enough to cover a crash completely, so I didn't really think about it. On the other hand, if I had taken Soul Mastery in the first place, I would have gotten an opportunity to lose a purple set but gain *two* recharge opportunities:
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Shadow Meld by itself is not really strong enough, but it is +Def(All). Now that you mention it I'm wondering what you could do with Elude + EoM + SM; could you add back enough defense to make SM stacked on top viable, and get a crashless E+E+S sequence. Hmm.
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|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I was thinking something more along the lines of this (sorry still in /elec armor mode). If Burnout does end up requiring two prereqs instead of one, then I could drop conductive shield, though that partially defeats the purpose. Note I am not well versed in claws, but is FU>Focus>Slash the best chain?
Edit: and ya, I am actually thinking about making this. Oh, and don't forget to include geas of the kind ones (not at the same time as eye of the magus, so it doesn't cancel out the defense). |
You could also just take Barrier to cover the gap.
Could also slot a FF proc in Focus, although you might even consider leveraging a primary that has more KB powers to slot it, I was considering SM/Ela myself.
Quote:
Yes.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
is FU>Focus>Slash the best chain?
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got 5% more recharge and slotted up Elude
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Quote:
Still no room for burnout in that one. Speaking of which, I don't know why I thought I would have to get rid of conductive shield for a burnout prereq, as hasten would be one.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
got 5% more recharge and slotted up Elude
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It doesn't really help much, but since you don't really need crane kick, you could switch it for taunt and just use 4 slots of perfect zinger for that 5%. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
got 5% more recharge and slotted up Elude
|
That frees up 1 slot, which unfortunately doesn't do much, maybe slot it to get some more DDR or something.
*or*
You could use crane kick in the chain, and instead sacrifice cobra strike, slotting in it a stupefy instead for 1.25% more recharge (.6 seconds more off of elude).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
 |
^Professional Katana/regen build thread
So here's a build that actually slots burnout, using whirlwind as a burnout proxy. Replacing Whirlwind with burnout is a plug and play replacement, as it takes Flurry and Hasten, so even if BO has a two-power prereq it fits. It gets to +226.25% recharge, shifting slots around using some of Iggy's tricks I overlooked (in particular why I overlooked slotting Health with Panacea I'm not sure) and some others. In this build Elude is up to 212.6s recharge, although using Ageless will drop that a bit (I did not add Ageless in the Incarnate tab because it would throw off the recharge calculations; Mids doesn't do that quite right yet). That's 32.6s of downtime which we'll have to cover somehow.
If we try to cover with EoM we won't be at 59% defense anymore because EoM is typed defense only and our SR is positional only, because we have no power pool defenses at all. We're also totally defenseless to psionic: no defense and no resistance. We will be conventionally soft-capped to standard critters (50-53% defense depending on type) and have substantial resistances (30% to all except psi and f/c which will be at 41%) so there's that.
Its still a crazy, and now even more expensive build, but I think it will work. You'll have to carefully manage Hasten, Elude, Eye of the Magnus, and Burnout, but it will work. And my guess is if it can work with MA, it can probably work with any other primary.
Code:
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
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Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Hectmb-Dam%(5), Mako-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Def(9), Aegis-ResDam(9), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(11), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- SW-Def(A), SW-Def/EndRdx(11), SW-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), HO:Enzym(31)
Level 4: True Grit -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(15), Numna-Heal/Rchg(17), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(21)
Level 6: Focus Chi -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Cobra Strike -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Mako-Dam%(39), GS-%Dam(40), HO:Nucle(45)
Level 10: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(43)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 14: Crane Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(40), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), T'Death-Dam%(48)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Dam%(23), TotHntr-Dam%(25), HO:Nucle(25)
Level 20: Phalanx Fighting -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(27), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(27), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Erad-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 32: Eagles Claw -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mako-Dam%(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 38: One with the Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(50)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-Build%(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(42), GSFC-ToHit(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(43)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(48), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), RgnTis-Heal/EndRdx(23), RgnTis-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(37), P'Shift-EndMod(39)
Code:
Arcana or someone, Werner, Iggy, how can I improve this build? I originally had the guassian set in Focus Chi, but based on what y'all said, it is better to have it in for an every 10 sec rather than 30 sec buff, also helps with the end drain of FA. However, now I only have one slot o Focus Chi, where can I pull slots from and not screw up my build too much?
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[QUOTE=Ghost_Ripper;3775939Arcana or someone, Werner, Iggy, how can I improve this build? I originally had the guassian set in Focus Chi, but based on what y'all said, it is better to have it in for an every 10 sec rather than 30 sec buff, also helps with the end drain of FA. However, now I only have one slot o Focus Chi, where can I pull slots from and not screw up my build too much?[/QUOTE]
What are you trying to accomplish? There are 2 versions of MA/SD builds floating around in posts on the Scrapper boards that are soft-capped and let you chain SK-CS-SK-CAK.
Quote:
Well, this is my omage character to Captain America, obviously. I have the physical perfection set and near capped Health for the minor regen, and end buffs, to go along with Cap. I want to be able to Solo, pretty much anything, including AV's and maybe attemp the Pylon and Rikkti challenges. Wanted to get the most out of my DPS, which is why I took Muscluture (this also allows me to skip Assault), took Ageless for the end and +recharge, and as you can see I'll be and end hog beast, so I'll need that. Plus the +recharge will get me within the optimal recharge range for the best DPS chain. That's pretty much it. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
What are you trying to accomplish? There are 2 versions of MA/SD builds floating around in posts on the Scrapper boards that are soft-capped and let you chain SK-CS-SK-CAK.
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I'd just use this build, which has Phys Perfection in it. You'll have to mess around to swap out Spiritual Alpha for Ageless, but I'm assuming it will still have enough recharge to run the chain.
This isn't my build -- I forget who came up with it -- but is is a great build and the basis for mine (I went Fire APP for more AOE, at the cost of endo).
Code:
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)