City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

MA DPS rerworked chain?

Arbegla

By Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-07-17 14:43 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey View Post
I don't get it... is this sarcasim?
Hah, no I was being serious.

I think assault, for its endurance cost, is really a waste at that point - especially if you have to sacrifice taking one of the better (IMO) Destiny powers to keep it running.

Although as I said if it were me, making a team focused build I would go Cardiac, Assault and Rebirth.

Assault is great stuff for teams.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
With the incarnate trials, you may want to shoot for 59% defense on a Super Reflexes, though you may also find that with all the defense buffs flying around, that's normally wasted. I wouldn't really be satisfied with 45% these days, though.
how do you get 59% defense *and* enough recharge to run all these extreme DPS chains? (unless you are Katana with DA)

I redid my build yesterday and in order to get in striking distance of perma hasten -- there is no way I can see to do better than say 47% to all.

 

Posted

For several primaries, the DPS difference between attack chains requiring tons of recharge and attacks chains requiring much more reasonable recharge is often in the single digits.

Considering most scrappers can push well above 200 DPS with incarnate powers these days (as well as bursts of 400+ DPS thanks to Lore), I'm more than happy to downgrade to lower attack chains for much better survivability.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Not that I've tried it, but on paper, I'm not a fan of Ageless.
The Ageless with Debuff protection can be a wonder on characters built with lots of defense (willpower for example) but little to no DDR.

It's quite amazing how much difference NOT losing all your defense to massive debuffs makes. The +end and +recharge is just a side effect then.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
The Ageless with Debuff protection can be a wonder on characters built with lots of defense (willpower for example) but little to no DDR.

It's quite amazing how much difference NOT losing all your defense to massive debuffs makes. The +end and +recharge is just a side effect then.
Barrier will do basically the same thing for you in that it provides so much DEF as to make it exceedingly unlikely that you will ever suffer cascading def failure.

I have a WP Brute, and there is no way you could ever convince me to use something other than Barrier or Rebirth for that character.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx View Post
how do you get 59% defense *and* enough recharge to run all these extreme DPS chains? (unless you are Katana with DA)
I assume you do that by asking Iggy to make you a build that has all that.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
For several primaries, the DPS difference between attack chains requiring tons of recharge and attacks chains requiring much more reasonable recharge is often in the single digits.

Considering most scrappers can push well above 200 DPS with incarnate powers these days (as well as bursts of 400+ DPS thanks to Lore), I'm more than happy to downgrade to lower attack chains for much better survivability.
I was considering the MA dps chain which is recommended in the thread?

SK-CS-SK-CAK

It takes quite a bit of recharge to run that.

Which primaries have a much easier time of things?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I assume you do that by asking Iggy to make you a build that has all that.
I was more interested in just some hints to get there. I just don't see how you can do nigh perma-hasten and 59% positional defenses on MA/SR, even with purple sets to make the recharge easier.

I can see one or the other though of course.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx View Post
I was more interested in just some hints to get there. I just don't see how you can do nigh perma-hasten and 59% positional defenses on MA/SR, even with purple sets to make the recharge easier.

I can see one or the other though of course.
I'm not really sure you can, and as i said earlier I don't think that's what Werner was suggesting.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx View Post
I was more interested in just some hints to get there. I just don't see how you can do nigh perma-hasten and 59% positional defenses on MA/SR, even with purple sets to make the recharge easier.

I can see one or the other though of course.
Well, I'm no Iggy, but I can make a build that has near-perma hasten and 59% positionals for MA/SR:

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It gets there, but its a bit problematic in some areas. In my opinion its underpowered on regeneration and especially endurance, it isn't quite perma-hasten because it only has 167.5% global recharge with Hasten up - you'll be a couple seconds short. And it uses the Enzyme cheat which I tend not to use.

But I think it would be playable, and with Incarnate buffs probably very much so. You can go perma-hasten with Spiritual Alpha, or maybe improve endurance management to sustainability with Cardiac: I haven't done the calculations there. But if you want to know the primary tricks the build uses, its basically a combination of leveraging Red Fortune which provides both significant ranged defense bonuses *and* recharge, going with an epic that gets me a pet for AoE defense and a ranged power for another purple set, and uses Gaussian.

Its not optimal, I know that: its just what I could whip up off the top of my head. I'm sure there are lots of ways to improve it. But it is a proof of concept that fast recharge and 59% defense can co-exist in an MA/SR build at least. And I'm actually thinking most other primaries would be easier than MA.

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Posted

Thanks for the answers. I didn't mean to come across badly to anyone if I did. I was instead curious.

----------

I think you are right Arcanaville about other sets, and thank you for the sample build.

For example with an unlimited budget - I would think Claws could do some interesting things with recharge since it can slot four purple sets into attacks you would normally take anyway.

At of course Katana has the great melee defense "built in"

----------
One way that occured to me was to use a Destiny Barrier Slot (I don't have Destiny unlocked yet) But I am unsure what the "up time" is.

Looking at Paragon Wiki it only lists the recharge on Destiny abilities as Very Long recharge lasting 120s

 

Posted

As a fairly impractical alternative, you can "perma Elude" these days by cycling Elude and Hibernate on an extreme-enough build. And if you're about to say, "no way, that would take being at almost the recharge cap", you're right, but you can be at almost the recharge cap by discarding every normal idea about how a Super Reflexes is built (and spending vast sums of influence).

See the attached example based on Murdok's actual build with some tweaks by me. Defense is far over the 59% mark at 100% melee, 95% ranged and 94% AoE. You can probably do some pretty massive damage... at least when you aren't Hibernating. I wouldn't play it because of the down time, but it's so awesome that I'm glad SOMEONE is playing it.

This build is Spines, but I believe someone plugged in Claws, and it worked too. It might be more difficult on other primaries, but Ageless might fill in any recharge gaps.

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Posted

That build is indeed extreme! Wow.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
This build is Spines, but I believe someone plugged in Claws, and it worked too. It might be more difficult on other primaries, but Ageless might fill in any recharge gaps.
Ya, I checked it with claws, and it works. Also a variation for a PB's lightform with quantum flight also works, not that that would be as good.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
As a fairly impractical alternative, you can "perma Elude" these days by cycling Elude and Hibernate on an extreme-enough build. And if you're about to say, "no way, that would take being at almost the recharge cap", you're right, but you can be at almost the recharge cap by discarding every normal idea about how a Super Reflexes is built (and spending vast sums of influence).
Looking at that build, at least in terms of Elude itself you can get *very* close to the recharge cap: maybe even closer than you think. By my calculations if you take Ageless Core Epiphany and cycle it continuously, you should drop Elude's recharge time to about 204.5 seconds, which is effectively an average recharge buff (on Elude itself between slotting, Alpha slotting, and global recharge) of 4.89. That's just 0.11 (11%) from the recharge cap, and that does factor in the fact that when Ageless initially buffs by 70% most of that buff is wasted because its above the cap.

Either way, its a strange, strange build, and I've played some strange builds. And here's something to contemplate. Burnout is coming, and it will insta-recharge Elude. It won't recharge itself, and its recharge is going to be huge, but at the absolute recharge cap it will recharge in about six minutes (I'm assuming that's no longer embargoed because its being demoed at Comicon). Theoretically speaking, then, it might be possible to construct a build that goes Elude -> Burnout -> Elude -> Hibernate -> Elude-> Burnout -> Elude -> Hibernate -> Elude -> Burnout -> Elude... In other words Hibernate every *two* Elude uses instead of one, if you can get enough recharge in there and still fit Burnout.

Burnout will cost half your end bar and cut your max end by 25%, but just looking at the endurance recovery rate for the Elude-build that might not actually matter.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
U mean eye of the magus, werner? Cause with that and burnout you could skip hibernate completely. Tempting to try that with electric armor for more mitigation. (With a Brute, I mean)
No, he means Geas.. For the extra recharge bonus. Granted it'll be mostly wasted with the destiny buff (you'd have to time geas just as the destiny buff dies down)

But burnout sounds so amazing i really can't wait to try it on some of my builds, especially my MM.. /traps with the ability to instantly refresh all my traps means I can quad stack acid mortar... which is make me giggle.

 

Posted

Hmm, well I don't think Geas would be necessary if you just did t9>burnout>t9>eye of the magus>t9>burnout. Everything should still be recharging in time, and you would have no period in hibernate doing no damage.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
Hmm, well I don't think Geas would be necessary if you just did t9>burnout>t9>eye of the magus>t9>burnout. Everything should still be recharging in time, and you would have no period in hibernate doing no damage.
Yeah, I meant Geas for the recharge and going with Rebirth instead of Ageless. (Edit: Or heck, Barrier. Yeah, we don't need the defense, but since we have Aid Self on hypercharge, some resistance might come in handy. Probably Rebirth though.) But yeah, maybe Eye of the Magus is enough to replace Hibernate. One nice thing with Hibernate is the quick recovery. I'm not sure how well you'll be attacking right after an endurance crash anyway, but I guess that's what blues are for.

I seriously never use the click accolades, so I could easily be saying really stupid things and not know it. You can laugh in my face if you want.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I assume you do that by asking Iggy to make you a build that has all that.
That's probably the easiest way.

If that didn't work, I'd consider accepting the loss of some damage for the extra survivability.
ha.... yeah lets just go ahead and throw me in the fire here...
Well haven't really messed with much build for the 59% defense thing. I don't see the need for it yet. Those trials are packed with 16-24 peeps with buffs flying all over and my Claws/SR hanging around 45% defense don't see much issues really.

Anyways, here's a Claws/SR build with 59% defense. Had to use Nerve to get the defense. No hasten so it can't run the high chain but enough to run the chain I like... FU-Slash-focus-Swipe. Could possible make some changes to get it enough recharge to run FU-Focus-Slash...

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Well haven't really messed with much build for the 59% defense thing. I don't see the need for it yet. Those trials are packed with 16-24 peeps with buffs flying all over and my Claws/SR hanging around 45% defense don't see much issues really.
The one place I see the benifit is on the LAM... in the 2nd phase where people tend to scatter to collect weapons and acid bombs. A scrapper with 59% defense and a heal can solo though that phase easily.... which is much quicker then dragging a weak team along. That said... a few lucks can fill the void very easily.... or just popping elude. So IMHO, still not worth it.

I don't have a lot of experience with Keyes... but what I did see it's very team-oriented so it's easy to stay buffed.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper View Post
Just went in game and tried, it IS NOT possible. It SHOULD be, but it's not.
Kind of a bummer too, I thought it'd be like Parry or Divine Avalanche and it should... but it's not.


So out of curiosity, Eagle's Claw shouldn't be used in an attack chain because of the slow animation?