Blasters surpurflous?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-11 23:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
*looks at the old dead horse*
could to see people more polite and calmer than me answered this definitely.
Also lol at using 8 fire/rads as a balance point. THAT is beyond...
I'll keep it nice as I've been getting a lot of mod comments lately in my pm box.
LOL.
So in short no, powers that can only be used from lvl 45-50 DO NOT make Blasters superflous. The game doesn't start at 50.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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On that note, I think we can close this thread. You summed that up oh so nicely.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
So in short no, powers that can only be used from lvl 45-50 DO NOT make Blasters superflous. The game doesn't start at 50.
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Still waiting for a response to my math. I wonder if we'll get it.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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See this is what any team of halfway competent players can complete anything in the game.|
Originally Posted by Shadowclone
Anything in this game can be completed with any combination of competent players. If I form any sort of team I take the first 8 people to show up, regardless of AT. Team of 8 stalkers? Sounds like fun. Team of 8 ninja masterminds? Sounds like a party. That's how I play, and it hasn't failed me yet.
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When a more powerful build comes in handy is when things go to pot.
Your TF's just lost 3 players to disconects and 2 players are new.
Yes this is subjective, but I know there is a heck of alot more I can do to pull a team together with my Dominator or Defender than with my blaster.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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I can tell off the top of my head |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Still waiting for a response to my math. I wonder if we'll get it.
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A single blaster will outdamage any single corruptor or defender, almost every time, its possible some real outliers might tie up, but thats not what we are talking about here.
Once you get to about 2 or 3 corruptors or defenders, it shouldnt really too much the buff set they are all about balanced, mostly.. sort of.
Blasters will fall behind the cor/def team, because of the stacking effect, and the more you stack, the better it gets, this has been known for years.
So when you are making a TF/trial, whatever.
Add a buff/debuff always is a better value given the choice between the two because they make 7 other players better.
So all you have to do is give a shout for xxxxx tf buff/debuff needed, even if you have to take a blaster to fill it out, it still stacks your buff/debuff.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Then it's not just blasters. This game should be City of Defenders/Corruptors. Everything else is a "wasted" spot on the team.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Blasters will fall behind the cor/def team, because of the stacking effect, and the more you stack, the better it gets, this has been known for years.
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In truth, though, the more buffs and debuffs you add, the more the blaster's value gets multiplied.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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This is true. I was on a team with 2 kinetics players, controller and defender. I was playing my archery blaster. Forget rain of arrows, with two fulcrum shifts fistful+explosive arrow just about killed the next couple spawns.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Then it's not just blasters. This game should be City of Defenders/Corruptors. Everything else is a "wasted" spot on the team.
In truth, though, the more buffs and debuffs you add, the more the blaster's value gets multiplied. |
It's interesting that this thread started its magical journey with the assertion that blasters were bad because incarnate powers render them useless. When it was demonstrated that blasters benefit at least as much as anyone from incarnate powers, the argument shifted to blasters being bad because their defensive abilities are inferior to those of other damage dealers. With this debunked, the topic has come to be about how blasters are bad because buffers and debuffers are better. Any guesses as to what the next reason that blasters are bad will be?
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Actuallly MM's and Controllers are pretty good too.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Then it's not just blasters. This game should be City of Defenders/Corruptors. Everything else is a "wasted" spot on the team.
In truth, though, the more buffs and debuffs you add, the more the blaster's value gets multiplied. |
Yes, but adding a blaster takes away a spot that could be adding more buffs.
Though its possible 6 and 2 or 7 and 1 might be the best combo.
I do remember when the LRSF was hard the standard finnishing combo was 7 cor's and 1 brute.
Yeah this is an inherent problem in the game.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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They don't come with enough pie.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It's interesting that this thread started its magical journey with the assertion that blasters were bad because incarnate powers render them useless. When it was demonstrated that blasters benefit at least as much as anyone from incarnate powers, the argument shifted to blasters being bad because their defensive abilities are inferior to those of other damage dealers. With this debunked, the topic has come to be about how blasters are bad because buffers and debuffers are better. Any guesses as to what the next reason that blasters are bad will be?
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Blasters have more hp than cor/def they have inferior defenses. Not the same thing.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It's interesting that this thread started its magical journey with the assertion that blasters were bad because incarnate powers render them useless. When it was demonstrated that blasters benefit at least as much as anyone from incarnate powers, the argument shifted to blasters being bad because their defensive abilities are inferior to those of other damage dealers. With this debunked, the topic has come to be about how blasters are bad because buffers and debuffers are better. Any guesses as to what the next reason that blasters are bad will be?
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And its always been my assertion that blasters are not useless they are just inferior to other choices, namely cor/def or scrapper/brute.
Though I do also think they are inferior to dominators, but I cant find the right way to word that, they just feel weaker, and its too hard to put that in any subjective way, so I dropped it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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One good fulcrum shift can get you near the damage cap. Two will, period. More debuffs can lower enemy resitance more, but in all but .1% of the game, that becomes superfluous if you reach the damage cap. Of course, this is just paired with kinetics. But in all but AV killing, a boosted blaster will level things so fast with just about any buff/debuff saturation that an extra rad/kin/cold/dark playing their tricks couldn't be missed. Heck, I can tell you from experience that they might 'complain' that their debuff setups are wasted when you kill everything in seconds.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
...Yes, but adding a blaster takes away a spot that could be adding more buffs.
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I don't know where to start on this.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
It doesnt really matter what secondary you put on a corruptor or defender
Any team is better off adding a defender or corruptor over a blaster. |
I have done a Synapse TF with 4 controllers and 4 blasters and all of the blasters were fire/fire - we completed the entire TF in 45 minutes. It was so fast we all laughed and did it again.
I will give you a challenge to educate you - take a single debuffer like a dark def or a controller and add 5 or 6 blasters. Get a tank/brute/scrapper and watch what happens.
I know for a fact you will change your tune after 2 groups. The tank will taunt the controller locks down and.........dead - everything is dead. I have done this repeatedly on my tanks and controllers. I get 2 aggro management types and then the rest is all damage and I prefer blasters.
I once was on a team of believe it or not 7 kin defs/controllers and my nuke on my fire/fire blaster was up EVERY group. I was never out of end and with 7 fulcrum shifts all everyone did was buff me. It was the ultimate rush because I popped my nuke and it was dead or nearly so and fireball finished em. The team just laughed and and we rolled thru Rikti like they were paper cutouts.
I can tell you the pure damage when applied is amazing.
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Using your own logic, Blasters would be a better choice than the Brute/Scrapper on the team. Why? With all of the buff/debuffs provided by the support characters, the Blaster's higher base damage and tendency to have more AoE attacks would mean the Blaster would do more damage than the Brute/Scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Blasters have more hp than cor/def they have inferior defenses. Not the same thing.
And its always been my assertion that blasters are not useless they are just inferior to other choices, namely cor/def or scrapper/brute. Though I do also think they are inferior to dominators, but I cant find the right way to word that, they just feel weaker, and its too hard to put that in any subjective way, so I dropped it. |
Does this mean that Brutes/Scrappers are somehow "more superfluous" than Blasters are?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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We're also not arguing the supremacy of force multipliers. I don't know why you keep falling back on this, as a counter-point to the fact that blasters can contribute and be useful on teams.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
A single blaster will outdamage any single corruptor or defender, almost every time, its possible some real outliers might tie up, but thats not what we are talking about here.
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The point of contention, is your insistence that blasters are useless/unnecessary, when nothing you have stated has demonstrated that. The latest attempt was to compare them to a team of fire/rads, which just as well shame other ATs and combos in the game. Replace "blaster" with "dom", "scrapper", etc, and your point would be no less true. We get it.
Which is again why I ask, what you're really advocating? If it's a blaster buff, on what magnitude are you expecting, if your bar for measure starts with 8 fire/rads? It's a nonstarter.
For the range of difficulty most teams are expected to encounter, Blasters perform within a reasonable range of performance (for now). This isn't to say they couldn't use tweaking, but they are far from useless.
Honestly Im not sure what they need to do.
Im just saying I feel nearly useless playing my ice/ice blaster
My Ta/arch however is awesome, and I know ive knocked that set in the past, but after the changes they are finnally good.
Ill put it this way, Ive pulled bad teams out and got TF's finnished with my Dom or Def, when a team starts to go bad with my blaster, I just fold it early and dont bother.
All subjective but true.
Removing nuke crashes is probably a good start though.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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A bad team with a defender isn't a bad team unless the defender sucks. A bad team with a blaster is still a bad team because the blaster has little potential to force multiply. None of this is groundbreaking. Again, buffs and debuffs are game changers. This doesn't mean blasters are bad, it means buffs and debuffs can effect up to 8 people on a team. We're back to the old "City of Buffs/Debuffs, everything else can sit on the sidelines."|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Ill put it this way, Ive pulled bad teams out and got TF's finnished with my Dom or Def, when a team starts to go bad with my blaster, I just fold it early and dont bother.
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Brutes, tanks, scrappers, EATs, dominators, blasters... whatever. If it's not a rad, kin, or cold, we don't want it.
If that's really your argument, the only way to "fix" it is to have the devs lock out every AT except corruptors, defenders, controllers, or masterminds. And that's not a game I want to play.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by Shadowclone
Yes people are doing more damage, but so are blasters. Blasters will always do the most damage.
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Ummm YEAH or didnt you think my three incarnate blasters were planning to take a judgement attack. What it does now is gives my BLASTER 2 nukes instead of one so I can now blast twice as many mobs into little bits before i even start using the lesser attacks.
Using the average damage output I can expect from my Fire blaster I can do slightly over 3000 HP of damage running through all of my attack once and that was before I added ION which has the potential to do close to 2500 more.. That's 5000 HP of damage before I have to hit a single button twice.. go anything that comes close to that
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Go stalkers!
(Tries to placate but it fails)....
*Runs away.*
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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SOA's are almost as good as cor's with the stacking leadership they provide.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
A bad team with a defender isn't a bad team unless the defender sucks. A bad team with a blaster is still a bad team because the blaster has little potential to force multiply. None of this is groundbreaking. Again, buffs and debuffs are game changers. This doesn't mean blasters are bad, it means buffs and debuffs can effect up to 8 people on a team. We're back to the old "City of Buffs/Debuffs, everything else can sit on the sidelines."
Brutes, tanks, scrappers, EATs, dominators, blasters... whatever. If it's not a rad, kin, or cold, we don't want it. If that's really your argument, the only way to "fix" it is to have the devs lock out every AT except corruptors, defenders, controllers, or masterminds. And that's not a game I want to play. |
Also I kinda recall I just said, most of the def sets are... mostly sort of balanced...
Poisons weak, but thats getting fixed, storm is situational weak or overpowered...sonic might be a bit weak too.
The rest are more or less about the same
Well for me, Ill just keep inviting the cor/def and leave the blasters waiting for more teams.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Now see, that could be your problem!|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Honestly Im not sure what they need to do.
Im just saying I feel nearly useless playing my ice/ice blaster My Ta/arch however is awesome, and I know ive knocked that set in the past, but after the changes they are finnally good. Ill put it this way, Ive pulled bad teams out and got TF's finnished with my Dom or Def, when a team starts to go bad with my blaster, I just fold it early and dont bother. All subjective but true. Removing nuke crashes is probably a good start though. |
You're playing a ST oriented Primary with a Control Heavy Secondary, and one of those controls is a SLEEP!
You just picked one of those combos.
No different than me picking DB/WP Scrapper, and watching /ELM, SH/, FA/ or whatever have you combos of Tankers putting my scrapper to shame when it comes to taking out enemies.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Technically, he is playing a Control Heavy Primary with a ST oriented Secondary, but that's just semantics |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Now see, that could be your problem!
You're playing a ST oriented Primary with a Control Heavy Secondary, and one of those controls is a SLEEP! You just picked one of those combos. No different than me picking DB/WP Scrapper, and watching /ELM, SH/, FA/ or whatever have you combos of Tankers putting my scrapper to shame when it comes to taking out enemies. |
I agree with everything else you said. Shubbie, if you want your Ice/Ice to measure up to your TA/Archery in terms of "awesome," you need to use and abuse Freeze Ray and Bitter Freeze Ray (you are a blaster that can hold a Boss faster than some controllers!), use Shiver and Ice Patch around corners, and then pick up Cold Mastery in the 40s and slot up Flash Freeze. Do all that, and I can all-but-guarantee your blaster will feel like a damage-maxed Controller, rather than "useless."
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Yes, after Incarnates, Blasters are superfluous. It doesn't matter - hitting 3 mobs with my Judgement, then razing the survivors is just awesome.
Also,
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| Veng Plz. |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Ice/Ice/Ice Blasters: The original Dominator.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Do all that, and I can all-but-guarantee your blaster will feel like a damage-maxed Controller, rather than "useless."
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I think you probably just suck at blasting.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-