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My post wasn't directed at you, or anyone in particular. I was just commenting on a trend I've observed.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I wasn't looking down on anyone.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But I think it's highly amusing that you're engaging in the same behavior right now that you are claiming to dislike.
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The fact that the people hurling those insults are also trying to make themselves out as standing on the moral high ground seems ridiculous to me. If you want to call me a hypocrite for pointing that out, you're welcome to do so. I'm happy to let what I've said stand on its own and let people judge for themselves.
I'm reluctant to even transfer my characters off Union for storage purposes. Union is where I started playing right after EU Beta, and it'll be where I finish playing.
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Your point is also ridiculous. Because it revolves around being judgmental of a group of people that don't even exist yet. |
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
My point, which I started with, was that I think a person can have valid reasons for wanting to move that don't justify insults.
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Free players in other games behaving a certain way does not automatically mean they will behave that way in THIS game. If they do turn out to behave that way, you can choose to avoid them then if you like. Assuming you already know for a fact how an entire group of people will behave in a game they aren't playing yet is both shortsighted and more than a little judgmental.
Would YOU like being lumped in with a group of people because you happen to share one characteristic with them (in this case, playing a game for free), and having other people make all kinds of assumptions about what kind of person you are because of that characteristic?
Saying "Oh, I've seen Group X before, I know all about Group X. Group X is nothing but a bunch of potty-mouthed children. I don't blame anyone for wanting to avoid them." is a prime example of the kind of elitist attitude I was expressing concern about in my OP of this thread.
I do have concerns about free players behaving badly, but I am NOT going to lump them all in the same group and assume they are ALL going to act that way. Especially not before I've even MET any of them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
At risk of sounding all doOOoOOoomy, what if there isn't a big giant huge massive influx of F2P players? What if we're waiting for barbarians who never show up?
If the VIP server is named Flarstux I'll move a bunch of my guys there. Otherwise, hey - new slots for new tewns! Woo hoo!
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That's a possibility. If it occured, I'd squarely blame Black Pebble for it though. At the very least there should be a short term influx of players testing the waters.|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
At risk of sounding all doOOoOOoomy, what if there isn't a big giant huge massive influx of F2P players? What if we're waiting for barbarians who never show up?
If the VIP server is named Flarstux I'll move a bunch of my guys there. Otherwise, hey - new slots for new tewns! Woo hoo! |
That said, don't worry about the Barbarians, they're bringing the ice cream.
Let's Dance!
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I need to ask, why do you care why people do things?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Your point is also ridiculous. Because it revolves around being judgmental of a group of people that don't even exist yet.
Free players in other games behaving a certain way does not automatically mean they will behave that way in THIS game. If they do turn out to behave that way, you can choose to avoid them then if you like. Assuming you already know for a fact how an entire group of people will behave in a game they aren't playing yet is both shortsighted and more than a little judgmental. Would YOU like being lumped in with a group of people because you happen to share one characteristic with them (in this case, playing a game for free), and having other people make all kinds of assumptions about what kind of person you are because of that characteristic? Saying "Oh, I've seen Group X before, I know all about Group X. Group X is nothing but a bunch of potty-mouthed children. I don't blame anyone for wanting to avoid them." is a prime example of the kind of elitist attitude I was expressing concern about in my OP of this thread. I do have concerns about free players behaving badly, but I am NOT going to lump them all in the same group and assume they are ALL going to act that way. Especially not before I've even MET any of them. |
Why do you think it's a binary proposition, in that people will either play on the VIP server or they won't?
By which I mean, it's not really anyone's business but the player's why they move to the VIP server. I don't play on Freedom because I didn't enjoy it on the occasions I tried to start a character there. That doesn't mean I judge the people who do play there.
As for the VIP server, it's a choice being offered to us. Even though a lot of my characters are marked as helpers, I'm the mod of the biggest badge/teaming channel on my server, and I have Help Channel active on all my characters, there are still times I shut them off, go on hide, and just play with friends. It doesn't make me unhelpful or rude or anything. I just want my time to be my own. With Freedom I'll have another option for doing so, a fresh server with a fresh start where I can go and hang out with a lot of other people I've been talking to here for years but never taken the time to make an alt on every other server to hang out with them.
You're right that we shouldn't judge Free players without experience. But at the same time you shouldn't feel free to judge other VIP players and make assumptions about their motives. It's an opportunity, and the minute you get hung up on motivations, you're blowing it.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
I may move a character or two to the VIP Server, just to make some room for me, I still plan on staying put.
Of course, I have a decidedly severe case of altitis, so more character slots are always a happy thing for me 
I have 2 accounts, my altitis is so bad, and both are paid up until after the new year, so I'll be getting the VIP server for both accounts. That's like 24 new alts.
O_O
24!
Yay! Sqeee!!
FREEEEEEEEEEEM!
It will always be "City Of Villains Triumph" to me.
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Don't panic... yup, confirmed by Zwillinger.|
Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
And then screens on the plane kick in and display the words "DON'T PANIC" in large, friendly letters.
/Always know where your towel is. //New Towel Powerset? |
Know where your towel is... yup confirmed by Zwillinger.
Wait, this means that... New Towel Powerset... ZOMG! New powerset! Towel/ Scrapper, snapping evil in its behind across Paragon City!
Level 50 Heroes: Atomic Twinkie, Muddy McCrush, Master Jolt, Sureshot Jones, Wushubot, Sirenbot, Phantom Warp
Level 50 Villians: Soul Breaker
Urban Renewal SG / Urban Decay VG (Virtue Server)
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I don't especially care why they're doing it. But, in my opinion, deciding to do something based on an assumption of people's behavior, when those people aren't even here yet to behave any way at all, is, well, pretty silly. If you've never seen, met, or interacted with any of the free players, how the hell can you possibly know how they will behave once they're playing? |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I need to ask, why do you care why people do things?
Why do you think it's a binary proposition, in that people will either play on the VIP server or they won't? |
People can do what they want for any reason they want, and it doesn't really affect me. I have every right to think that assuming people who don't even play the game yet will behave obnoxiously is a stupid reason to do something. I don't have any right to tell people they can't do something for that reason, and I never thought I did. Still think it's a dumb reason though.
I already said a few posts back that the responses I'd gotten had alleviated a lot of my concerns about the issue. And then someone posted demonstrating the exact kind of attitude that caused my concerns in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I want to jump in with Claws here, for one specific reason - the justification for the mere existence of a VIP server. We don't need a new server. We have too many as it is. We're not getting a VIP server so that we'd have one more. The only reason the VIP server is even being considered is for the notion that some players would specifically want to NOT team with Free players. That's literally the only reason it exists.
Now, obviously, this isn't the only thing people can use it for. It's a new server, so some names may (probably won't, but may) be available there when they're taken everywhere else, it's 12 more free slots and 36 more slots total, and it will have VIPs that people may want to play with if they're friends from before. There are plenty of perfectly benign reasons people can use to justify making characters on the VIP server. I can't think of any "benign" reasons why we needed a VIP server in the first place and more than anything else, why people say they're going to move there and never play on any of the others. And I've seen a few say that already, so I'm not making things up.
To a large extent, the sense of "elitism" is inherent in the very existence of a VIP-only server. Considering it's a server that's functionally identical to all the others except Free players can't play on it, I trust that should be easy to see. Clearly, people playing on the VIP server aren't automatically horrible snobs. But the server's basic design IS snobbish.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But Group X is potty-mouthed...
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Saying "Oh, I've seen Group X before, I know all about Group X. Group X is nothing but a bunch of potty-mouthed children. I don't blame anyone for wanting to avoid them." is a prime example of the kind of elitist attitude I was expressing concern about in my OP of this thread.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I think who people are putting down are those players who are screaming that they need 200 character slots and the ability to move all their SG's over to the VIP server. I can understand if you have a lone 50 on a low pop server and want to transfer him/her over. But it's the people who want to move EVERYTHING to the VIP server that are making themselves such easy targets for the less DOOM and gloom crowd.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
I'm amused by the people putting down those who want to move to the VIP server. A lot of them seem to be looking down their noses at them while patting themselves on the back for being so enlightened as to willingly rub shoulders with the common man, while using the word "snobs" to describe those moving to the VIP server. To me this smacks of the most delicious irony.
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Those are the people I was concerned about in the first place. Since I expressed those concerns I have been reassured that it is a small percentage of the population that feels that way, not a significant portion like I was led to believe by the few threads I had read prior to me posting this. |
Originally Posted by Ssyrie
I think who people are putting down are those players who are screaming that they need 200 character slots and the ability to move all their SG's over to the VIP server. I can understand if you have a lone 50 on a low pop server and want to transfer him/her over. But it's the people who want to move EVERYTHING to the VIP server that are making themselves such easy targets for the less DOOM and gloom crowd.
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I was just concerned that a large chunk of the veteran players were going to jump ship to the VIP server and leave the free players to fend for themselves. Fortunately, that seems not to be the case. I'm sure there will still be a certain amount of elitism present, but probably not much more than we have already from some people.
I'll probably be moving a character or two there myself, and will definitely be rolling a new version of my main, because the name is taken on every server other than my home server (and I'm pretty sure I can jump on it fairly soon after the server is up and running). So, it's not like I'm saying that anyone who plays on the VIP server at all is an elitist snob, just those people who want to move everything they have there so the filthy F2Pers can't get their nice clothes dirty by brushing past them in the street.
I was against the game going to a F2P model precisely because of my concerns about behavior, both from the free players and the veterans. Since it's happening whether I like it or not, I'm just accepting it and trying to stay open-minded about the possibilities it presents. So far, my concerns about the behavior of the veterans have been more or less eased. The behavior of the new free players remains to be seen, but I'm not going to make any assumptions about people I've never met.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Claws, you are a reasonable and classy dude.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I was against the game going to a F2P model precisely because of my concerns about behavior, both from the free players and the veterans. Since it's happening whether I like it or not, I'm just accepting it and trying to stay open-minded about the possibilities it presents. So far, my concerns about the behavior of the veterans have been more or less eased. The behavior of the new free players remains to be seen, but I'm not going to make any assumptions about people I've never met.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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The name thing DOES benefit from a smaller access of pools, I would think. Obviously, if you want a generic name, free players not having the option to take it means there are less people who can get the generic name before you do.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We don't need a new server. We have too many as it is.
............. Now, obviously, this isn't the only thing people can use it for. It's a new server, so some names may (probably won't, but may) be available there when they're taken everywhere else. |
"Generic," in this case, being used for any name which someone has already thought of before you. Which seems like a harsh but fair way to describe it to me.
J
Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!
I guess it depends on what happens to the server population of my server. (Virtue.) If I notice a large increase I might move to the V.I.P. server merely to mitigate lag, if that occurs. I'm somewhat skeptical that the devs new hardware tech is going to solve that problem, but I'll cross that road when I reach it I suppose. For now I'm staying put.
I don't plan on moving to the VIP server. I like Virtue, and if people leave, who cares?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Or, instead of making assumptions, the devs are doing exactly like they said. They looked at other games that went f2p and made choices to avoid some common pitfalls. In addition, they said they wanted to add more value to our present subscription. Having another server to play on is added potential value.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But, in my opinion, deciding to do something based on an assumption of people's behavior, when those people aren't even here yet to behave any way at all, is, well, pretty silly.
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You're right that just because it happened in other games it will automatically happen here. But why not have something in place just in case, and let people know months ahead of time so they don't get bothered and quit because they feel like they're not being considered.
It's an easy way to alleviate some of the tension over the change, and show they're really making an effort to give us more choices for our money.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I think you're misunderstanding what I meant. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Or, instead of making assumptions, the devs are doing exactly like they said. They looked at other games that went f2p and made choices to avoid some common pitfalls. In addition, they said they wanted to add more value to our present subscription. Having another server to play on is added potential value.
You're right that just because it happened in other games it will automatically happen here. But why not have something in place just in case, and let people know months ahead of time so they don't get bothered and quit because they feel like they're not being considered. It's an easy way to alleviate some of the tension over the change, and show they're really making an effort to give us more choices for our money. |
I wasn't talking about the devs' decision to go free to play. Or their decision to add a VIP only server.
I was talking about some of the players' decisions to move to the VIP server to avoid playing with the free to play people, in the assumption that they will all be rude little trolls and in general ruin the game for them.
THAT'S what I meant about making assumptions on people's behavior before they're here to behave in any way at all. What I was talking about had nothing to do with the devs' business decisions in any way.
Edit: It's not just moving to the VIP server. I think the assumption that you will dislike someone before you've ever met them is a stupid reason to do anything.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, I suspect it's to allow some people to avoid the inevitable inf. spammers.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I want to jump in with Claws here, for one specific reason - the justification for the mere existence of a VIP server. We don't need a new server. We have too many as it is. We're not getting a VIP server so that we'd have one more. The only reason the VIP server is even being considered is for the notion that some players would specifically want to NOT team with Free players. That's literally the only reason it exists.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I misspoke. I meant to say that it's a server designed to give a place where VIPs don't... "Mingle" with Free players. How's that? The VIP server really serves very few other proposes, and most of those are by proxy of what it is - an extra server - rather than what it represents - a VIP area.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Actually, I suspect it's to allow some people to avoid the inevitable inf. spammers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This sums it up for me too. I will just clear my /gignore list, and add to it as needed.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
I don't plan on moving to the VIP server. I like Virtue, and if people leave, who cares?
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Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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I agree, to a point. The example in my first post was meant to be just that, an example of one possible reason a person might have for wanting to move to the VIP server. It was meant to imply that there are other valid reasons, but I guess I should have been more explicit.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Free players in other games behaving a certain way does not automatically mean they will behave that way in THIS game.
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None of us know anyone else's experiences or reasons for making their decisions unless they clearly state them for us. To automatically attribute the worst possible motivation to someone absent that knowledge reflects poorly on the commenter.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I do have concerns about free players behaving badly, but I am NOT going to lump them all in the same group and assume they are ALL going to act that way. Especially not before I've even MET any of them.
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I don't see most people leaving their home server and friends just to escape the free players. Some of the most fun teams I have been on, are the ones made up of mostly new players. Their enthusiasm for the game makes things much more light and enjoyable. When I was newbie not so long ago, I received a lot of friendly help and advice, and I look forward to having even more opportunities to pass that on. I may be overly optimistic, but I think most people feel the same way. I live on Freedom and Virtue, and that is where I intend to stay. Bring on more team mates!