Things that make me go hrmmm...
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-06-24 17:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is one reason I think I've not seen anyone I PUG with running the original story arcs since radio/newpapaer missions were added into the game (yes yes yes, I know you players who do must by law of averages be out there, don't bother jumping out of the woodwork to play gotcha, it's silly). They've made it feel penalizing. This may have been discussed when the change first came out, I don't know.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
PuG Story Arc Teaming: In the end, only the contact holder gets the Merits... unless we go back in time? Oh wait... Tips give Fame and Morality to all in group who are eligible... this makes sense.
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Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Nothing for you: Communications Officers open Portals to more aliens, Death Shaman continue to "bring out their dead" until the moon turns blue, Malta has insane HP drones, the Carnies fantastic phantoms... all for the low, low price of... 0 XP/0 INF? Hrm, yet the Sky Raiders shield generators reward INF and the IDF's Orbs give Minion rewards? *puts 1 and 1 together and comes up with 1 big scratch of the noggin*
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)
Ok.
Ok. Hmmm...
*scribbles notes*
Now tell me how you really feel.
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As City of Heroes goes "Freedom"... should this be an aspect we should be concerned about? I mean, it runs counter to the whole "teaming up for anything" mindset once you know how the system operates. Free players see this and may begin to wonder about the systems they can't yet get in on and may not care to research to find out.|
This is one reason I think I've not seen anyone I PUG with running the original story arcs since radio/newpapaer missions were added into the game (yes yes yes, I know you players who do must by law of averages be out there, don't bother jumping out of the woodwork to play gotcha, it's silly). They've made it feel penalizing. This may have been discussed when the change first came out, I don't know. |
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The devs changed this some time back, people had found a way to exploit those Rikti for risk-free XP (yes, exploits existed before AE even existed!
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There's no reason the Communications Officer in this case doesn't award minion rewards and his 5 (I believe there's a mob limit they spawn now?) summons don't each divide the remaining difference. And why did the Portals ever award anything anyways since it's gone once the Comm Officer is gone?
The arguement of "not possible" is invalid, otherwise the IDF's Orbs wouldn't award minion rewards or the Sky Raider's Force Field Generator or Underlings awarding minor rewards.
Again... I'm thinking ahead to what some F2P players may observe and have second thoughts on becoming VIP. People are smart and I think the small things add up. I know these things still frustrate me after all this time. It's just the good outweighs the bad.
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Like I wish I had a notepad. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok.
Ok. Hmmm... *scribbles notes* Now tell me how you really feel. |
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Communication Officers: in Issue 10, people discovered that they could provoke Communcation Officers in the RWZ into dropping a portal, hit them for a couple of points of damage and then fly away, and they would get full XP for the portal once it despawned. The portals gave significant XP to compensate for the spawned Rikti not giving any.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Nothing for you: Communications Officers open Portals to more aliens, Death Shaman continue to "bring out their dead" until the moon turns blue, Malta has insane HP drones, the Carnies fantastic phantoms... all for the low, low price of... 0 XP/0 INF? Hrm, yet the Sky Raiders shield generators reward INF and the IDF's Orbs give Minion rewards? *puts 1 and 1 together and comes up with 1 big scratch of the noggin*
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Death Shamans: way back in Issue 4, there was this mission from Unai Kemen full of Death Shamans. A fire tanker would herd them all to the middle of the map, keeping them far enough that they would summon zombies without getting close. The zombies would walk towards the fire tanker, who would have Burn on auto, defeating them and getting full XP/Inf. Once this was set up, it could go for the entire night with no supervision.
Lichen: you forgot this one. In the Eden trial, there's some "Lichen Colonies" that spawn infinite minions. Until issue 10, those Lichen gave XP. What changed? Issue 10 gave us the Vanguard HVAS, very tough pets that would last until you zoned, had long range attacks... and you could Group Fly them. A group would summon the pets, fly over the lichen (too far for their ranged attacks, but not for the HVAS) and watch the robots happily destroy the Lichen all day. Oh, I hear an objection coming; "the Eden trial ends after 3 hours!" Well, that's only true if you don't complete it. If you complete the Eden trial, you get "Mission Complete!" in the compass... and the mission timer stops.
Similar exploits apply to everything else that can be endlessly spawned and gives rewards.
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Originally Posted by SupaFreak
There's no reason the Communications Officer in this case doesn't award minion rewards and his 5 (I believe there's a mob limit they spawn now?)
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However, I believe those summoned Rikti are the same entity (and thus share the same rewards) with, say, these:
You see the problem.
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In a sense, yes... in a sense, no.
I'm guessing that pic is from Mender Ramiel's arc?
I think there's 6 or 7(?) Portals on that mission... I'm not ready to count all the summons in that pic (great demonstration, BTW)... but I do believe they far exceed the 5 per Comm Officer. Not entirely sure these follow the Comm Officer's Portal spawner.
I do remember the Death Shaman's exploit from waaay back... who couldn't see that one coming? So, why do they have a mechanic to continue summoning them? Can't they be regulated to 3 rounds of summons like I believe the Devouring Earth (eminators) are limited to? Then they could easily just have Underling rewards and really not worth the effort to exploit yet still feel slightly rewarding in dealing with.
The Lichen are a special case... I can see why they should remain continuous and 0 rewards. It's the "I fight this all the time" guys I'm eyeing...
See I miss the time when the cops ran around like chickens with their heads cut of. Now they kill steal damn griefers. I would report them but if the GMs boot the server what would we be able to play on?
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On the first one: Heroes actually can't get all their accolade powers solo. TF Commander requires. Well, running the Freedom Phalanx TFs.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Villain Accolade Powers: Why must sooo many more hoops be jumped through compared to Heros? Mayhems can't be acquired on your own once you pass the level requirement, can the same be said for Heroes to obtain these bonus Powers?
The Unepic Epic: Kheldians feel so underpowered to the "shrug off nearly all mezzes" VEATs, no? Sure there's Dwarf form... but how they stack up to an AT that does the shrugging off with all their powers available? *asks personal Kheldian sitting at 6 months unplayed* Stick Around a While: I was defeated in combat by Knives of Artemis' caltrops after they were defeated... or was it the other way around? No wait, mine evaporate when I'm defeated. Hello Carnie Phantasm... why can't you be more like Outcast Fire Imps?  |
On the second one: Part of the problem with Kheldians is partly because they're a product from an older era and made with a different design logic, also operated under different concepts of epic. Kheldian function of "epic" was based on them being an "epic challenge" with an "epic story". The former part was the assumption you had played the other hero ATs and would recognize that a Kheldian was a jack of all trades, but master of none, a swiss army knife for those moments you think during a mission 'Gee, I wish I was on my blaster'. Unfortunately, it fell flat, and VEATS were made rather crazily powerful outside of their end issues
On the third part: it's because computer is a cheating *******.
Now something that's always baffled me is:
Why does Stone Armor's Rooted toggle make you fall faster? I get that you're heavier, but did they dev that design that at the time sleep through physics class? HEAVIER OBJECTS/OBJECTS OF GREATER MASS FALL NO FASTER THAN LIGHTER OBJECTS/OBJECTS WITH LESS MASS WITHOUT AERODYNAMICS INVOLVED.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I'd never noticed that on my stone tanker, but looking at MIDs, I see that both Rooted and Granite increase your jump speed by 50%. I had assumed it was an unintended consequence of them setting the maximum jump height negative, but that isn't at all the case.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Why does Stone Armor's Rooted toggle make you fall faster? I get that you're heavier, but did they dev that design that at the time sleep through physics class? HEAVIER OBJECTS/OBJECTS OF GREATER MASS FALL NO FASTER THAN LIGHTER OBJECTS/OBJECTS WITH LESS MASS WITHOUT AERODYNAMICS INVOLVED.
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My understanding is that the "beam" is used so that our base can be anywhere - an apartment, an underground complex, a moonbase, or anywhere we want. The transporter is there so that everyone goes to the same place to access the base, no matter where the actual base is supposed to be.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Supergroup Access Graphic: The glowing blue cylinder comes off as lazy. Why not a building or the unused Kiosks (with a visual upgrade)?
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| Villain Accolade Powers: Why must sooo many more hoops be jumped through compared to Heros? Mayhems can't be acquired on your own once you pass the level requirement, can the same be said for Heroes to obtain these bonus Powers |
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| Safeguards/Mayhems: Throughout the high level missions, Task Forces and Strike Forces, the low level cities are targetted and occupied by high level enemies... yet we can't find an opportunity to Rob Atlas Bank or Protect Kings Row Bank after a while? |
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| Civilians Gone Wild: Does the civilians running around like chickens with their heads cut off into the middle of your fights in missions really add immersion? Can't they just stay where they are before they get hurt? |
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| Fame Acquisition: I stop the Council in the sewers where no civilians are present and acquire Fame, yet I save Brickstown Bank in front of dozens of civilians and no one notices? And none of the kidnappings in story arcs improve my dastardly reputation? |
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| The Untargettable Me: Target heal for you, PBAoE for me. Wait... Target Self may never happen, but why isn't there 2 forms of Fortitude? One quicker recharge for Ally, one slower recharge for Self? Swap Ammo has 3 Icons for Power Tray, would it be so bad if my Pain Domination had "Painbringer" for you, "Painbringer" for me? No wonder Traps is so desired... they already have this! *pets Force Field Generator* |
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| PuG Story Arc Teaming: In the end, only the contact holder gets the Merits... unless we go back in time? Oh wait... Tips give Fame and Morality to all in group who are eligible... this makes sense. |
And no, we can't have the system track what you helped with, and give proportionate rewards. Either it would only remember as long as you were logged in, and logging out for the night and back to finish tomorrow would result in the other guy getting partial rewards, or the progress would be stored in your character file, and every time you teamed with someone who was on a story arc, your character file would get a little more bloated (unless you finished the arc with them), until everyone's character files were so big that load times were affected.
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| The Unepic Epic: Kheldians feel so underpowered to the "shrug off nearly all mezzes" VEATs, no? Sure there's Dwarf form... but how they stack up to an AT that does the shrugging off with all their powers available? *asks personal Kheldian sitting at 6 months unplayed* |
Despite that, I know a few people who will argue with you over which EAT is more awesome. Your opinion isn't wrong, but it isn't universal either.
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| Nothing for you: Communications Officers open Portals to more aliens, Death Shaman continue to "bring out their dead" until the moon turns blue, Malta has insane HP drones, the Carnies fantastic phantoms... all for the low, low price of... 0 XP/0 INF? Hrm, yet the Sky Raiders shield generators reward INF and the IDF's Orbs give Minion rewards? *puts 1 and 1 together and comes up with 1 big scratch of the noggin* |
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Stick Around a While: I was defeated in combat by Knives of Artemis' caltrops after they were defeated... or was it the other way around? No wait, mine evaporate when I'm defeated. Hello Carnie Phantasm... why can't you be more like Outcast Fire Imps?
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@Roderick
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Yeah, that's no problem. Unless you're starting in Praetoria. In which case you've missed the first three.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Personally, I prefer collecting Villain Accolades. I'd rather stop and do a Mayhem every few levels than run all of the Task Forces for TFC. And Demonic vs. Archmage? I'll take the villain one any day.
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It's a lot easier to find teams for Task Forces than it is to find teams for low level Mayhem Missions.
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That is a faulty premise. The power that [Force Field Drone] emulates, from Force Fields, ALSO bestows its buff on the caster.
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Originally Posted by SupaFreak
No wonder Traps is so desired... they already have this! *pets Force Field Generator*
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One of the problems Hero side is that different contacts give out the same story arcs, but if say, Player 1 had Story Arc A from NPC *, and Player 2 has Story Arc A from NPC #, they don't get mission completion credit for each others.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
PuG Story Arc Teaming: In the end, only the contact holder gets the Merits... unless we go back in time? Oh wait... Tips give Fame and Morality to all in group who are eligible... this makes sense.
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They really need to sort this out, by making each Hero story arc only come from 1 contact.
They could really do with redesigning the Paragon contacts to tighten them up to 7 year later MMO standards.
The Super Group portal graphics don't just look cheap, they ARE cheap. They're a cut corner so the developers didn't have to think of an actually interesting way for us to enter our hammerspace bases. Just put a glowy thing under the statue's crotch here and in that bus stop there and call it a day. We're not aiming for "good" here, just "functional."
A simple and still far superior variant to this would be if the glowy purple energy were contained within some kind of machine with scientists around it monitoring equipment. Draw it up like a portable kit that a team of, say, 12 people took out to an open area in the city, deployed and activated a teleportation gate. Or in magical-themed zones like Croatoa, you could have a circle of mages, maybe even from the Midnight Club, tending to a ritual, reading out mystic chants, mending torches, lighting fires, shooting lightning into the gate and suchforth.
A little imagination goes a long way, unless you're determined to cut corners and get out a basic functionality with no inspiration behind it. Just something to click. Like the Merit Vendors.
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And then there are the Rikti Comm Officers. I firmly approve of the change that made neither the Portal nor the spawned Rikti give experience. You shouldn't be careful to not interrupt the officer from spawning a Portal, like it was back then. Because why would you ever want to defeat JUST the officer, when you could defeat the officer AND the portal for over thrice the XP? And if the portal spawned XP-giving enemies, what sense does it make to NOT let it spawn a few so you can snag a few more points, as well?
The Comm Officer is worth the trouble he gives in the experience he reward, and the system gives people an incentive to defeat the officer before he summons a portal, or to interrupt him if he begins. As it should be.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I can understand them not wanting people to farm some of the enemies. But seriously, with the AE I think that bird has flown.
Set the summoned targets to give half or a quarter of the XP that they would if they were encountered as a seperate mob. then the farmers won't bother and those of us who play it straight get something for the effort.
As for Carnies and others that summon a set number of enemies (with Phantasm or whatever) simply make them worth more base XP (if they havn't already) to reflect the tougher opponent.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Nothing for you: Communications Officers open Portals to more aliens, Death Shaman continue to "bring out their dead" until the moon turns blue, Malta has insane HP drones, the Carnies fantastic phantoms... all for the low, low price of... 0 XP/0 INF? Hrm, yet the Sky Raiders shield generators reward INF and the IDF's Orbs give Minion rewards? *puts 1 and 1 together and comes up with 1 big scratch of the noggin*
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Fighting a summoned entity doesn't provide XP because the summon is part of the challenge of fighting the enemy that called it. If you don't want to fight the summon, handle the summoner before it can use the power. This rule is not unique to this game--it has existed in various RPGs for over 30 years.
The orbs providing XP may be an oversight or may just be a *shrug*.
Someone has never played a Triform Warshade... lol crab spiders.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Safeguards/Mayhems should be able to be done via flashbacks.
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His point is that heroes can start all the TFs themselves at level 50. You can't start all the mayhems yourself at level 50. It didn't say anything about solo.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
On the first one: Heroes actually can't get all their accolade powers solo. TF Commander requires. Well, running the Freedom Phalanx TFs.
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With the announcement of Freedom and the possibility of new players coming in to check out the game (some for the first time, some to rediscover), I find myself looking back on another genre I personally very much equally enjoy with SW:G and why I didn't continue with that game or other games and decided to settle here with CoH.
The reason I did NOT stay with them boiled down to 1 simple aspect despite all the surrounding graphical beauty and interesting features: Flawed Mechanics.
City of Heroes has a superior character creator and superior (even moreso now) teaming system to any game I've seen or played. These are their saving graces to me.
I've been here for 7 years and trust me... I love this game. But, if I were to enter at this point and discover how Merits are rewarded... it probably would be enough for me to reconsider. And that is a very high concern of mine come Freedom's launch.
Examine what Free to Play players will discover:
What part of that content will they be exposed to?
Story Arcs and Safeguards/Mayhems. A majority of developer content, no?
And how will they react when they discover Merits are awarded to the mission holder only and emphasis is on solo for these rewards in an MMO?
Veterans, be honest... how many of us team for story arcs? Is that answer extremely low? My guess based on my observations is that most of you answered 0.
My guess is that a majority of you that team are doing Incarnate Trials, Task Forces, Strike Forces, Tip Missions and to a sad extent... A/E "Ticket Gathering".
So we confine ourselves to a very small portion of the game. Should it be that way?
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That would be an overly complicated approach to fix the glaring problem here.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
And no, we can't have the system track what you helped with, and give proportionate rewards. Either it would only remember as long as you were logged in, and logging out for the night and back to finish tomorrow would result in the other guy getting partial rewards, or the progress would be stored in your character file, and every time you teamed with someone who was on a story arc, your character file would get a little more bloated (unless you finished the arc with them), until everyone's character files were so big that load times were affected.
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I have spreadsheet after spreadsheet in Excel here nearly complete on "Merits per Hour" examining what the Dev Team's desired rate would be.
On average, it appears to be 12 or 1 Merit per 5 minutes of focused drive. Some are higher, some are lower... but out of close to 150 arcs I've tracked, that's the overall average.
Wouldn't the quickest, easiest and desirable fix here be "how" they're distributed using that as a guideline?
Maybe:
Eliminate Story Arc finish Merit bonus altogether. (double XP/INF is suffice for the arc holder)
Award random 1-3 Merits to all teammembers eligible for Mission Completion bonus upon completion. (door missions only as it currently is)
Once Merits received, a 7* minute "Acknowledged" buff is placed on the character in which they are ineligible for further Merit rewards.
At worst on the RNG: 6 per hour
At best on the RNG: 18 per hour
On average on the RNG: 12 per hour
*originally suggested 10 minutes, but rethinking that means a 0 second window of opportunity to meet the goal... changed to 3 minute window of opportunity to meet the goal
Would a very simple solution such as this return some glory to Story Arc, Radio, Paper, Safeguard and Mayhem teaming while keeping the desired "Merits per Hour" or MpH in effect?
I know I as a Veteran and planned VIP would be much, much, much more inclined to forgo VIP content and join a PuG team doing any of the mentioned content that makes up a majority of the game.
That is all...
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If that's true, the summons should die when the summoner does. If they DON'T, then they should give exp.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Fighting a summoned entity doesn't provide XP because the summon is part of the challenge of fighting the enemy that called it. If you don't want to fight the summon, handle the summoner before it can use the power. This rule is not unique to this game--it has existed in various RPGs for over 30 years.
The orbs providing XP may be an oversight or may just be a *shrug*. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm not sure you can make that assertion. And I say this because I can assert that if an enemy defeats you, you've clearly failed and shouldn't get a reward for defeating said enemy.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If that's true, the summons should die when the summoner does. If they DON'T, then they should give exp.
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Consider the reward for spawning enemies the same as the Resisting Arrest time reward in Mayhem missions. You get no time reward for any individual PPD cop, but you DO get a reward for defeating the whole spawn. Same thing when a mission objective includes defeating an entire spawn, too.
Spawning enemies, in my eyes at least, provide an easy meal. Yes, if you allow them to spawn an entire cadre of NPCs, you're doing more work than you're getting paid for. If, however, you kill them fast, then you're scoring an easy kill, but getting mass gobs of reward. Same with Behemoth portals. Everyone hates them, and I LOVE the things. Sure, if you're on a team, if you dilly-dally or do something very wrong, you can get a huge horde of Behemoths that should be worth a lot more than the gate is. But if you kill them fast, then all you'll ever see is two minions, or two minions and a lieutenant, and the gate is worth more than those by a longshot.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Positron talked about adding this a couple of years back, so yeah, long past time.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Safeguards/Mayhems should be able to be done via flashbacks.
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Confuse the Portal and you never have to see a spawn of Behemoths, which is nice if that option is there on the team.| Spawning enemies, in my eyes at least, provide an easy meal. Yes, if you allow them to spawn an entire cadre of NPCs, you're doing more work than you're getting paid for. If, however, you kill them fast, then you're scoring an easy kill, but getting mass gobs of reward. Same with Behemoth portals. Everyone hates them, and I LOVE the things. Sure, if you're on a team, if you dilly-dally or do something very wrong, you can get a huge horde of Behemoths that should be worth a lot more than the gate is. But if you kill them fast, then all you'll ever see is two minions, or two minions and a lieutenant, and the gate is worth more than those by a longshot. |
I got to thinking about this aspect again as I was laying down to go to sleep last night...
Don't Master Illusionists have a maximum number of Illusionists they can summon to avoid having one summon Illusionist over and over to prevent farming them from one encounter?
If I'm right on this... then why can't "common" encounters (not including Lichen and the like here) all have X amount of times they can be summoned for a unique category of rewards between Minion and Underling? There's probably only a handful of these types in the range of 20-30 that wouldn't require much time to sort out and fix the code to... or so I would think. *shrug*
As much as I do enjoy this game, there are quite a few elements that baffle me... curious how much they baffle others.
(In no certain order)
Supergroup Access Graphic: The glowing blue cylinder comes off as lazy. Why not a building or the unused Kiosks (with a visual upgrade)?
Villain Accolade Powers: Why must sooo many more hoops be jumped through compared to Heros? Mayhems can't be acquired on your own once you pass the level requirement, can the same be said for Heroes to obtain these bonus Powers?
Safeguards/Mayhems: Throughout the high level missions, Task Forces and Strike Forces, the low level cities are targetted and occupied by high level enemies... yet we can't find an opportunity to Rob Atlas Bank or Protect Kings Row Bank after a while?
Civilians Gone Wild: Does the civilians running around like chickens with their heads cut off into the middle of your fights in missions really add immersion? Can't they just stay where they are before they get hurt?
Fame Acquisition: I stop the Council in the sewers where no civilians are present and acquire Fame, yet I save Brickstown Bank in front of dozens of civilians and no one notices? And none of the kidnappings in story arcs improve my dastardly reputation?
The Untargettable Me: Target heal for you, PBAoE for me. Wait... Target Self may never happen, but why isn't there 2 forms of Fortitude? One quicker recharge for Ally, one slower recharge for Self? Swap Ammo has 3 Icons for Power Tray, would it be so bad if my Pain Domination had "Painbringer" for you, "Painbringer" for me? No wonder Traps is so desired... they already have this! *pets Force Field Generator*
PuG Story Arc Teaming: In the end, only the contact holder gets the Merits... unless we go back in time? Oh wait... Tips give Fame and Morality to all in group who are eligible... this makes sense.
The Unepic Epic: Kheldians feel so underpowered to the "shrug off nearly all mezzes" VEATs, no? Sure there's Dwarf form... but how they stack up to an AT that does the shrugging off with all their powers available? *asks personal Kheldian sitting at 6 months unplayed*
Nothing for you: Communications Officers open Portals to more aliens, Death Shaman continue to "bring out their dead" until the moon turns blue, Malta has insane HP drones, the Carnies fantastic phantoms... all for the low, low price of... 0 XP/0 INF? Hrm, yet the Sky Raiders shield generators reward INF and the IDF's Orbs give Minion rewards? *puts 1 and 1 together and comes up with 1 big scratch of the noggin*
Stick Around a While: I was defeated in combat by Knives of Artemis' caltrops after they were defeated... or was it the other way around? No wait, mine evaporate when I'm defeated. Hello Carnie Phantasm... why can't you be more like Outcast Fire Imps?
That's all for now...