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The part that doesn't enjoy paying for things I've already paid for. Yes I know I pay to play their game. Yes I understand that no guarantees have ever been made to me. I also know that I've purchased City of Villains, and that gave me access to playing all the archetypes associated within. I never assumed I'd have to pay again for things I've already paid for. I had hoped to use points given to move ahead into the future. Not procure my past. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You find it messed up that if you stop paying them money altogether, they will only give you access to most of your characters for free instead of all of them.
If you've been here long enough you'll be able to unlock MMs with the equivalent of veteran rewards, but lets set that aside for a moment. You think giving you *free* access to some, but not all of your characters, forever, without you having to spend a dime ever again, to be messed up. Because having access to most of the game completely for free is not enough. Furthermore, even though there is going to be a way to pay a one time fee to unlock not just one of those masterminds, but all of them simultaneously which will then allow you to play all of *them* forever, without spending any money every again, that is too burdensome. Is there something about your position I'm mischaracterizing or overlooking? |
Am I "raging" over this? No. Am I upset? Not really. OMG I HATE THE DEVS I'M GONNA QUIT!!!omg!!.. That ain't gonna happen. Here's an interesting thought though. I'm allowed to be slightly disappointed. Didn't realize I had to check with the condescending committing first.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world
The kind that makes things happen
The kind that watch things happen
And then there are those of us who keep asking "WTH just happened!"
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It seems that the rule: "What has been paid for you keep always" is trumped by the rule: "But we have to make *something* off limits otherwise there's no difference between F2P/Premium and VIP/Subscription."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think that is being somewhat deliberately parsimonious in interpretation. While there are some corner cases here and there, the vast majority of the problem centers squarely on the fact that the rule "you keep what you bought" doesn't cover access because we've never actually had the opportunity or the right to buy access. Buying CoV did not purchase the right to play a mastermind, because that right came with subscription. It unlocked the ability to create one. It did not purchase the right to play it.
Because *no* player purchase *ever* covered access the rules for what we can and cannot access under Freedom don't trump the purchase rule. The purchase rule cannot ever actually apply to access. ... If this is not obvious, neither is it as complicated as people seem to be attempting to portray it as. And its not arbitrary or unfair. Relocating the gates in this way is part of differentiating the resources available to free players, premium players, and subscribers. You could characterize that as just the devs having to make "something" off limits, but its not just randomly chosen for the sake of choosing something: its the most logical access right somethings to differentiate in a tiered hybrid system. |
Positron, the leader of enacting the hybrid model is the one who says live and in writing, without qualification, that you always have whatever you have previously purchased. Which makes it sound like, especially with the history of uniting access and ownership, purchasing stuff means always having *access* to stuff.
Paragon Studios needs to get on board with better distinctions in their own promotions in describing it as:
- You never lose ownership of whatever you purchased.
- Premium Members have access to most of the stuff they previously purchased but not all.
- Premium Members can purchase access to almost all the stuff they previously purchased but has been limited by their status as Premium accounts.
- Anything new that Premium Members purchase automatically entitles them to access to it.
- When a Premium Members becomes a VIP member, they regain access to whatever they didn't have access to as a Premium Member.
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You never assumed you'd have to pay for something again? You mean like that subscription fee, without which you would not be currently playing at all? |
Originally Posted by CORE_NA
The part that doesn't enjoy paying for things I've already paid for. Yes I know I pay to play their game. Yes I understand that no guarantees have ever been made to me. I also know that I've purchased City of Villains, and that gave me access to playing all the archetypes associated within. I never assumed I'd have to pay again for things I've already paid for. I had hoped to use points given to move ahead into the future. Not procure my past.
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So you were hoping to use your free points to score new free stuff rather than unlocking access on a free account to stuff that never was free in the past.
My utter and complete lack of sympathy cannot be expressed in words.
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| Am I "raging" over this? No. Am I upset? Not really. OMG I HATE THE DEVS I'M GONNA QUIT!!!omg!!.. That ain't gonna happen. Here's an interesting thought though. I'm allowed to be slightly disappointed. Didn't realize I had to check with the condescending committing first. |
You deserve all of zero sympathy or consideration.
Too many alts to list.
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I could see this as valid, though I still admit that any consumer in today's world that believes they are getting something for free without any strings attached deserves not a lick of sympathy. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Paragon Studios needs to get on board with better distinctions in their own promotions in describing it as:
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What the company is going to be giving out for free is pretty damned amazing, IMO. People whining about it actually rile me.
"Here's your free BMW."
"But it has the name of your company on the side, and it's only a 1 series!!, you bastards!!"
Too many alts to list.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Buying CoV did not purchase the right to play a mastermind, because that right came with subscription. It unlocked the ability to create one. It did not purchase the right to play it.
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There is the disappointment I have right there. My previous sub to CoH didn't unlock me to villains. My hard purchase of the City of Villains box did. I was subbed to City of Heroes when City of Villains released, and I had to buy a retail copy of CoV to unlock those archetypes. I didn't wait until the Devs said Heck with it and gave villains to everyone. I've already paid cash to unlock that content to me.
It's all a moot point really. I will continue to play CoX. If I ever reach a stage of feeling so grieved by Paragon that I cannot continue I'll leave. This is not that day. The pros by far outway the cons. I'll take my points and buy my toons back. I just ain't gonna be smiling while I do. I just wish that I could take my Global Character Slots and use em to play my already created toons. I could even understand letting me open a MM I've already made, but not allow the creation of more without purchase. Why do I have to use my points to play my pre-established Master Mind when Steve the Scrapper doesn't.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world
The kind that makes things happen
The kind that watch things happen
And then there are those of us who keep asking "WTH just happened!"
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Yes. That is exactly what I had hoped. |
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
You never assumed you'd have to pay for something again? You mean like that subscription fee, without which you would not be currently playing at all?
So you were hoping to use your free points to score new free stuff rather than unlocking access on a free account to stuff that never was free in the past. My utter and complete lack of sympathy cannot be expressed in words. Yes, you are whining that you are not getting sufficient FREE stuff. You deserve all of zero sympathy or consideration. |
My tone hasn't once been a whine. And I'm sorry you misunderstand my intent. Freedom is a big deal. Game changing ground is being broken, and the best part is there is so much that I don't have to have a single Happy feeling about everything.
Do I like the idea of fresh players? Yes.
Do I enjoy the thought of those off months I forget to budget my sub I can still play in some way. Yes!
Do I think that generally Freedom will be good for CoX? Yes.
Do I have to like every single tweak, change, and modification? No.
I'm allowed to praise what I like and voice concern of what I don't. Again my sub lets me post on the forums. And not once in the ToS does it say I can't express displeasure, and I must make smily faces everytime an employee posts
I mention here I don't like something and you think I insulted your mother. On the flip side I've already texted, msged, and IMed my friends that I used to play with and friends that I've never played with because they couldn't afford it.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world
The kind that makes things happen
The kind that watch things happen
And then there are those of us who keep asking "WTH just happened!"
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On the flip side, anything you do post is subject to comment by others who also subscribe. Go figure. Your entitlement mentality (yes, asking for more on a free account is an entitlement mentality) annoys me, so I will persist in commenting. |
Originally Posted by CORE_NA
I'm allowed to praise what I like and voice concern of what I don't. Again my sub lets me post on the forums. And not once in the ToS does it say I can't express displeasure, and I must make smily faces everytime an employee posts
I mention here I don't like something and you think I insulted your mother. |
If you can't get the simple fact that you are complaining about something which is brand new and free, then you are whiny. You complain that the free stuff you are being offered isn't sufficient. That is a whine.
Too many alts to list.
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You are talking about people who have bought and paid for City of Heroes, City of Villains, Going Rogue, and various perks. You're saying that they they're fools for expecting what they paid for to still be there after the game goes F2P. They understand that there will be limitations to a Premium subscription--but not getting to play a Controller in seven years was not on the original CoH box.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
You deserve all of zero sympathy or consideration.
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They're confused and concerned, and asking questions. The very least we can do is be respectful of their questions. You're bringing the community down, man.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Yes though you get a bit more than you think. First from your forum registration time you have played at least 4 years so presumably your a 4 year vet or close to it. That would give you 2 base slots + 4 Vet Slots. If you have purchased any slots you also have those available, and if you bought COV you have extra. But at the minimum you can unlock 6 characters to play for free if you drop back to premium.|
Originally Posted by Caradavina
Ok, I'm just going to ask this in layman's terms:
I am currently a subscribing member and I have TONS of alts. However, sometimes I cannot pay my sub fee and welcome the chance to be able to play during those times. From what I am understanding, I will at least be able to play two toons (except MM's, right?) on each server while I am free to play. I can unlock my other toons with earned PP. Ok, now, my concern is only this - I won't lose any of my created characters? I mean, they might be locked but none of them will disappear, right? |
From things the red names have said you will also have accumulated Paragon Reward Tokens based on subscription time. Again using the 4 year guess for you, you should be able to unlock Master Minds using those and have them available to play as a Premium player without spending any more.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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Definitely the late hours. I fixed it in the following post where I made the list, but not the original one. (Which I would have continued to forget had you not drawn attention to it, so... thanks!)
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I think your confusion may have come from Second Measure's example in his OP. The example was "if you have been a subscriber for 3 years". Or the late hours.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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We define whine differently.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
On the flip side, anything you do post is subject to comment by others who also subscribe. Go figure. Your entitlement mentality (yes, asking for more on a free account is an entitlement mentality) annoys me, so I will persist in commenting.
If you can't get the simple fact that you are complaining about something which is brand new and free, then you are whiny. You complain that the free stuff you are being offered isn't sufficient. That is a whine. |
I'm not sure where you think my "entitlement mentality" has me asking for anything. I haven't once asked for rules and ideas to be changed. I just wanted to verify I understood completely. Maybe I shot myself in the foot when I used the words "very very messed up", but in fact I've said a couple time that I accept Paragon's choices and will move forward. I merely said I don't have to like every bit of it while I do.
Oh and comment away. Not once have I thought "Geez I hope this DocBuzzard leaves me alone." I put on my big boy underwear this morning and can take a couple of verbal disagreements.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world
The kind that makes things happen
The kind that watch things happen
And then there are those of us who keep asking "WTH just happened!"
Quote:
VIP's get both Paragon Reward Tokens and Paragon Points.|
Originally Posted by Vox_Doom
If the button to sub is actually called that, I will mash it many times.
Have you guys decided which vet reward unlocks those ATs yet, if there's going to be one? Also, will players who lapse before 1st July get any reward points for anything they've bought in the past at all? I'm guessing no, but I might as well ask. Edit: Think I saw the answer. We get Paragon Reward Tokens right? Not Paragon Points. Tokens. And those are basically a gift to vets, yeah? |
Each month a VIP gets 400 Paragon Points added to their account.
Each month a VIP gets 1 or more Paragon Reward tokens that can be spend on what was Veteran rewards but will now be called Paragon Rewards.
So it is two different things.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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Quote:
I've noticed it is easy to miss BAF Team comments in the scroll on the screen. First it is that light green that just doesn't stand out and second there is all of that scroll.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There are still people who run to cover a door on the BAF when you say multiple times that we'll be covering then paths
 |
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
Yes they are fools for thinking that if they don't pay a subscription fee every month they will have access to the same things that they had before.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
You are talking about people who have bought and paid for City of Heroes, City of Villains, Going Rogue, and various perks. You're saying that they they're fools for expecting what they paid for to still be there after the game goes F2P. They understand that there will be limitations to a Premium subscription--but not getting to play a Controller in seven years was not on the original CoH box.
They're confused and concerned, and asking questions. The very least we can do is be respectful of their questions. You're bringing the community down, man. |
They are basically whining that they aren't going to be paying the monthly subscription but for some reason magically deserve everything that a paying customer has access to.
Oh and if they are continuing to pay their subscription fee than they have access to everything they had before and more. I'm not seeing the problem here aside from people greedily wanting it all for free.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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I would have to agree with this. You could argue that access to controllers and masterminds were paid for already by paying for a game disk and using that code. |
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Here's the problem I'm seeing....
MM's & 'Trollers were never part of the Veteran Rewards Program in the first place. They are AT's which were part of purchased content, either by box or by subscription (ie, issue release). HEATs & VEATs were also part of purchased content, but were level gated (levels very recently lowered, I might add). WHY the heck should a VIP who lapses to Premium be forced to SPEND their Veteran Reward Points to access something that they have already purchased (accessed, played, invested in) at one point? OH, and THEN, once the former VIP pays (via Reward Points) to unlock the content (again)... THEN it's considered "permanently" accessible? Thats.... just not quite right. If, as some of the previous responses indicate, you are supposed to retain access to everything you have already paid for or earned (even if you lapse to Premium)... Then.... If you start off as a VIP, those ATs should be considered permanently accessible from the get-go. . |
- City of Heroes
- City of Villains
- City of Heroes: Collector's Edition
- City of Villains: Collector's Edition
- City of Heroes: Good vs Evil
- City of Heroes: Mac Special Edition
- City of Heroes: Architech Edition
- City of Heroes: Going Rogue - Complete Collection
If someone just downloaded the client, and only paid for the account access subscription without ever applying a code from one of these I MIGHT be able to get behind closing them off, but maybe a compromise should be if the player has one of the codes from these disks applied they should be considered to have paid for access to controllers and MMs since they apparently paid extra for a game disk.
A possible suggestion: Based on redname comments elsewhere they already have the tech for giving you credit for things you've bought and added to your account.
Perhaps a way to clear much of the objections would be to sit down and give ex-VIP returning Premium players credit for *something* for having purchased the various boxed sets over the years, especially since new upgraded-from-Free Premium players will have never had to have bought the game in a store. This is mostly applicable to the sort of person who buys the new expansion, plays for the included month or perhaps another, and then unsubscribes again; their total vet time might be less than a year even if they've been playing CoH off and on since the beginning. I don't know how many of these folks there are, but it certainly seems to be a dominant case in the people who are complaining about lost stuff...
Some possible examples, obviously subject to discussion, and for this discussion "bought" probably means "applied the relevant code to your account prior to July 1":
* If you bought any of the original CoH boxed sets, you would get permanently gifted with the Controller unlock
* If you bought any of the original CoV boxed sets, you would get permanently gifted with the Mastermind unlock
* If you bought the I14: Architect Edition boxed set, you would get permanently gifted with the AE unlock
Note that personally, I think the existing model is fairly reasonable; but this suggestion is an attempt to see whether there's something that Paragon can do that doesn't cost them much, but makes many of the complaints moot so people can focus more optimistically on the cool stuff and drawing lapsed players back in.
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Well sure, with debate tactics like that, why even ask questions? *sigh*|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Yes they are fools...basically whining...greedily wanting it all for free.
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They're just asking questions. Damn them, I guess.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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While the above is true, it's not what the post you were quoting was asking.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
VIP's get both Paragon Reward Tokens and Paragon Points.
Each month a VIP gets 400 Paragon Points added to their account. Each month a VIP gets 1 or more Paragon Reward tokens that can be spend on what was Veteran rewards but will now be called Paragon Rewards. So it is two different things. |
Vox was asking, if you cancel your subscription before July 1st and thus do not get the bonus Paragon Points leading up to the launch of CoHF/i21, how things will work.
We can assume from various redname statements that yes, we will be getting a supply of Paragon Reward Tokens based on the length of our previous subscription, but no bonus Paragon Points because the subscription will not be active in the specified time.
Leading back to the info in YOUR post: yes, if you keep your subscription active, you will get both Paragon Points and some number of Paragon Reward Tokens between July 1 and the launch of CoHF. You should also receive a number of Paragon Reward Tokens based on your previous subscription.
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Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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How about we look at it this way, they want more free stuff than is being offered. That's is the fact, cut and dry. |
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
You are talking about people who have bought and paid for City of Heroes, City of Villains, Going Rogue, and various perks. You're saying that they they're fools for expecting what they paid for to still be there after the game goes F2P. They understand that there will be limitations to a Premium subscription--but not getting to play a Controller in seven years was not on the original CoH box.
They're confused and concerned, and asking questions. The very least we can do is be respectful of their questions. You're bringing the community down, man. |
Your first paragraph is utter bunk. If they continue paying for the game, as they currently do, they don't lose anything they paid for. Everything remains the same, but more stuff is available.
They are complaining that the free stuff they are being offered is insufficient. That is whiny and irritating.
Let me repeat this simple fact- NOT A DAMN THING IS BEING TAKEN AWAY. People are not losing anything. They are not being cut off. Their quality of game play is not being diminished in any way. They are merely being offered FOR FREE a new option. If they cannot accept that gift horse without grumbling, you're damned right I won't be respectful because it is a position not deserving of respect.
Too many alts to list.
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Yes I got that.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
VIP's get both Paragon Reward Tokens and Paragon Points.
Each month a VIP gets 400 Paragon Points added to their account. Each month a VIP gets 1 or more Paragon Reward tokens that can be spend on what was Veteran rewards but will now be called Paragon Rewards. So it is two different things. |
My question was referring to Premium members, not VIPs. Should have made that clearer.
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
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From what I can see if your subscription ends before July 1 you will not not get the 400 a month bonus for july and each month until release.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
While the above is true, it's not what the post you were quoting was asking.
Vox was asking, if you cancel your subscription before July 1st and thus do not get the bonus Paragon Points leading up to the launch of CoHF/i21, how things will work. We can assume from various redname statements that yes, we will be getting a supply of Paragon Reward Tokens based on the length of our previous subscription, but no bonus Paragon Points because the subscription will not be active in the specified time. |
You will get some unknown bonus Paragon Points for buying COH and any other expansions you may have purchased. That is fairly clear from things said by red names that they are going to do something like what LOTRO did where expansions and time subscribed etc give you extra Points to spend in the store at conversion.
You will only lose the 400/month for july onward.
It also looks like they will be awarding a number of Paragon Reward Tokens based on your number of months subscribed. So if you are a 12 month vet whose subscription runs out here in June then after the conversion you will likely have a minimum of 12 Paragon Reward Tokens you can spend even if you don't resubscribe. Though that will happen when I21 goes live.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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yeah the issue here is that folks are talking about keeping everything by dropping from a subscriber to a F2P person. In other games if one drops from Paying to Free person you lose a WHOLE LOT more.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
How about we look at it this way, they want more free stuff than is being offered. That's is the fact, cut and dry.
Your first paragraph is utter bunk. If they continue paying for the game, as they currently do, they don't lose anything they paid for. Everything remains the same, but more stuff is available. They are complaining that the free stuff they are being offered is insufficient. That is whiny and irritating. Let me repeat this simple fact- NOT A DAMN THING IS BEING TAKEN AWAY. People are not losing anything. They are not being cut off. Their quality of game play is not being diminished in any way. They are merely being offered FOR FREE a new option. If they cannot accept that gift horse without grumbling, you're damned right I won't be respectful because it is a position not deserving of respect. |
We should be happy we get access to anything that VIPs have when our subs lapse.
Paying a sub is what guarantees you access to everything. Dropping below that DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT guarantee you access to everything.
For those who think it should, Let me as you this: Then what would be the point of you subscribing?
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I call it like I see it. Basically some people don't want to pay any money but want to have all of the benefits of a paid monthly subscription.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Well sure, with debate tactics like that, why even ask questions? *sigh*
They're just asking questions. Damn them, I guess. |
That sure seems greedy to me. people are also complaining bitterly about not getting everything which sure sounds like whining to me.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
That's not it at all.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Yes they are fools for thinking that if they don't pay a subscription fee every month they will have access to the same things that they had before.
They are basically whining that they aren't going to be paying the monthly subscription but for some reason magically deserve everything that a paying customer has access to. Oh and if they are continuing to pay their subscription fee than they have access to everything they had before and more. I'm not seeing the problem here aside from people greedily wanting it all for free. |
Those of us who are going to go Premium (unless I get this job I just interviewed for) want to know what we're getting to keep. That's all.
Some of us think we should get some sort of 'reward' from the fact we bought the retail packs. VIPs would get the same reward.
Some of us believe we bought certain things with certain retail purchases.
It's not whining, it's a worry that we'll have to, overall, pay twice for certain things.
We know certain things are restricted, we know we're getting something for paying nothing, we'd just like to know what we're getting for the something we have paid.
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
From what I can see if your subscription ends before July 1 you will not not get the 400 a month bonus for july and each month until release.
You will get some unknown bonus Paragon Points for buying COH and any other expansions you may have purchased. That is fairly clear from things said by red names that they are going to do something like what LOTRO did where expansions and time subscribed etc give you extra Points to spend in the store at conversion. You will only lose the 400/month for july onward. It also looks like they will be awarding a number of Paragon Reward Tokens based on your number of months subscribed. So if you are a 12 month vet whose subscription runs out here in June then after the conversion you will likely have a minimum of 12 Paragon Reward Tokens you can spend even if you don't resubscribe. Though that will happen when I21 goes live. |
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
And you know what? After a few days, and a lot of redname posts, I'm still getting the answers wrong. There are a lot of people who are upset that they are losing access to characters and ATs that they have already paid for. They see no reason to resubscribe if it means they have to pay to unlock this content a second time.
I'm not debating with you, or with anyone--I'm simply telling you what is happening on other forums I frequent. As Zombie said, "What you've paid for you always keep," sounds great--and it isn't what is going to happen.
For anyone who chooses to argue--remember, I'm a VIP subscriber...you need to argue with the Premium content people who don't have access to these boards and who are concerned with the Premium content. Not me.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.