Hench AI shenanigans and upgrade to gated status
By
Black Zot,
Posted on: 2011-06-22 09:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Pets have been borked ever since the recharge buff changes. Its kind of to the point where I barely play masterminds or controllers now because it just isnt worth dealing with the frustrations of it all. I think at this point there needs to be a code over haul for pets. Pet ai or script needs to be seperated from critter AI/script and make it follow or do its own thing. Alot of what I been seeing is pets doing the run away ai thing like they are getting scared to fight at times just like the critters. Maybe with all the upcoming changes we can buy some pets that actually work with the paragon points.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Follow isn't the reason they're running off, Defensive is.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
-I'm tired of these A holes running away from me, my buffs and even supremacy when in Defensive "FOLLOW" which I'm under the impression is not follow the fleeing enemy into the next group of enemies
|
"Defensive" doesn't mean "defend yourself". It means "Don't attack anything unless it attacks you, then go kill it." Your pets are chasing after everything because YOU told them to. You want them to stop chasing things, put them on passive.
It would be nice if we could get commands that forced the pets into Ranged only, Melee only or use Both, but that's a matter for the Suggestions forum, and may not be possible anyways.
@Roderick
Quote:
I'm aware of that, I just feel "follow" should override the aggressive aspects of defensive, in the same manner that attack my target overrides passive and defensive as in pet's in defensive follow never leave a radius half as large as supremacy
|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Follow isn't the reason they're running off, Defensive is.
|
Quote:
|
"Defensive" doesn't mean "defend yourself". It means "Don't attack anything unless it attacks you, then go kill it." Your pets are chasing after everything because YOU told them to. You want them to stop chasing things, put them on passive. It would be nice if we could get commands that forced the pets into Ranged only, Melee only or use Both, but that's a matter for the Suggestions forum, and may not be possible anyways. |
I wouldn't even mind defensive follow's quirks if goto and stay worked properly(they don't) and if they ever get worked on defensive follow should be improved too
Are you using Ninjas as your henchmen?
I am asking because they are the most notorious henchmen for chasing runners, or other mobs, the most out of all the other henchmen sets due to their innate speed buff coupe up with the knock-backs they do. It feels you might as well summon them, buff them, and then walk up to a big group of enemies and play the Benny Hill Theme Song after they start attacking.
Yes, I am aware all pets tend to wig out as if they are all souped up on a quadruple shot expresso from the local Starbucks when you are attacked in Bodyguard mode. However Zombie are more stupid in reaction timing... sometimes too stupid that you have to tell them to attack... and when they do react, almost all of them give chase. Mercs and Robots tend to be ranged while at least 2 random henchmen give chase... even those protector bots and the medic merc. Thugs will have at least the Bruiser and Arsonist give chase 80% of the time and the rest just unload their payload near you. Demons are more balance of what they do overall.
Personally I think the AI has improved a little bit since CoV was launched. At least the pets don't "freak out" any more when some other MM's henchmen in another room or the mission's ally get's attacked. However it is still annoying when you have pets that wont attack due to stuff like Oil Arrow igniting and they all run away as far as they can from it and just stand there.
Now I don't know your play style but I, myself, find that Binds are incredibly useful on Masterminds to control their henchmen more fully. Sandolphan made an incredible guide on how to make mastermind binds over here, in which I still use that guide to this day. I find that binds do help alleviate some aggravating AI aspects about the henchmen by using more direct control in a micro scale mannerism, and binds do seem to activate faster then macros. Yet, that also means we have to pay more attention to our henchmen.
Unfortunately there is no sure way to fix the buggy AI problems on our end, nor set these henchmen into a specific attacking stance. Yet, I like to point out that the "Follow" command does override the attack behavior up to a point; if you called them back to your side while you or any of them were attacked in the process of reaching you... Once they reach you they will go back to attacking; even pursue those that they once were chasing again. If they are at your avatar and you were attacked within the last 10 seconds, or if any of them were attacked in the last 10 seconds near your avatar... they all will go back to attacking immediately after the follow command was initiated.
Best method to retract them all is to put them on passive and follow / goto until the majority have reach the destination or the situation deems to be a critical one and then go back into defensive mode. That way the henchmen won't give chase and won't attack until you give them the signal to at the cost of the bodyguard mode. Which should be no more then 3 seconds at max.
Until we get an AI fix, I empathize with the henchmen AI suffering pains.
I was referring to my bots mostly but I do have a low level ninja/storm if I had more time I'd play it up but my main low level alt is a arch/kin and it's pretty fun to play but right now my time is focused on my bots/traps I just need to earn 30 more hero merits...
Quote:
Nicer still would be the easy solution: Give all pets EITHER melee or ranged powers, but never both.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
It would be nice if we could get commands that forced the pets into Ranged only, Melee only or use Both, but that's a matter for the Suggestions forum, and may not be possible anyways.
|
Problem solved forever.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
...|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Panther
I am asking because they are the most notorious henchmen for chasing runners, or other mobs, the most out of all the other henchmen sets due to their innate speed buff coupe up with the knock-backs they do. It feels you might as well summon them, buff them, and then walk up to a big group of enemies and play the Benny Hill Theme Song after they start attacking.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Panther
It feels you might as well summon them, buff them, and then walk up to a big group of enemies and play the Benny Hill Theme Song after they start attacking.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Panther
summon them, buff them, and then walk up to a big group of enemies and play the Benny Hill Theme Song
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Panther
play the Benny Hill Theme Song
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Panther
Benny Hill Theme Song
|
It is called.
YAKETY.
FRIGGIN
SAX.
It wasn't written FOR Benny Hill. It wasn't written BY Benny Hill. Its writing, inception, creation, and existence have nothing to DO with Benny Hill except that he happened to use the song for his sketch comedy show!
IT IS NOT HIS EFFING THEME SONG.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Nicer still would be the easy solution: Give all pets EITHER melee or ranged powers, but never both.
Problem solved forever. |
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
This wouldn't help. Pets have been observed closing to melee range just to use a ranged attack. Frequently. |
Perfect example is Prot Bots, who don't even HAVE a melee attack, but insist on going into melee range quite often.
Quote:
And Phantasm. No melee attacks, closes to melee.
|
Originally Posted by Primantiss
Perfect example is Prot Bots, who don't even HAVE a melee attack, but insist on going into melee range quite often.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I'm aware of that, I just feel "follow" should override the aggressive aspects of defensive, in the same manner that attack my target overrides passive and defensive as in pet's in defensive follow never leave a radius half as large as supremacy
I know what passive does but what value are your henches if they wont attack or bodyguard you? I wouldn't even mind defensive follow's quirks if goto and stay worked properly(they don't) and if they ever get worked on defensive follow should be improved too |
The point is that you have to control your henchmen. You must switch them between passive, defensive, attack, goto, etc. constantly in order to get them to really do what you want. Regardless of other bugs, the devs don't want to make the AI so smart that you don't do anything. I doubt they *could* make the AI that smart, but the devs don't even want to try.
Hence, you're going to have to get used commanding your henchmen during battle. I suggest some key binds. Look at Sandolfin's key bind guides in the Mastermind guides in their forums.
Quote:
I have binds several already including all henchmen goto and a goto for each tier it's way better than nothing and significantly below satisfactory hence my issue with having to spam commands especially on trials where my commands go ignored after only a few seconds
|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
The point is that you have to control your henchmen. You must switch them between passive, defensive, attack, goto, etc. constantly in order to get them to really do what you want. Regardless of other bugs, the devs don't want to make the AI so smart that you don't do anything. I doubt they *could* make the AI that smart, but the devs don't even want to try.
Hence, you're going to have to get used commanding your henchmen during battle. I suggest some key binds. Look at Sandolfin's key bind guides in the Mastermind guides in their forums. |
Don't worry. It's on the list: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=255708
Actually, you can still worry, since I have serious doubts anything will be done to fix these long standing AI issues. Also, as stated, melee/range doesn't matter. If a henchmen doesn't have an attack to use the henchmen will by default run into melee range. This was made worse by the recharge changes in pet AI because many henchmen don't have seamless ranged or melee attack chains. The bitter irony is the justification of taking away recharge was that it was supposed to solve AI issues. >:|
Quote:
what they should have done was either gotten rid of that "best attack" code or change it so pets never used the same upgrade attack twice in a row either could have solved the bruiser's hand clap issue of course I have no idea how hard that would be to code
|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Don't worry. It's on the list: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=255708
Actually, you can still worry, since I have serious doubts anything will be done to fix these long standing AI issues. Also, as stated, melee/range doesn't matter. If a henchmen doesn't have an attack to use the henchmen will by default run into melee range. This was made worse by the recharge changes in pet AI because many henchmen don't have seamless ranged or melee attack chains. The bitter irony is the justification of taking away recharge was that it was supposed to solve AI issues. >:| |
Too many non-programmers post about AI code. People who aren't programmers should have the good sense to not talk about code, about how hard or easy something would be to implement because you don't know what your talking about. If you don't know what your talking about you shouldn't be talking about it. Common sense, right there.
AI code doesn't have to be that complex, and in this game, its probably nothing more then a few paragraphs of text. I've written AI code for other games before. (Quake, actually, sure its dated but it was far more complex than this game's AI).
Understand this: Video game AI is not like making a *REAL* AI at all. People confuse the two it seems because they equate video game ai as being similarly challenging. Its not. Video game AI is extremely limited and usually quite simple. It doesn't have to be very complex.
Our pet AI sucks because the programmers got extremely lazy and we get to pay for it, and thats the truth of the matter. They probably copied most of the pet ai from the regular mob ai and added a few lines here and there for some mm specific stuff. The code is obviously very bad because the AI is filled with special cases like fleeing from fire and other stuff that overrides more reasonable actions.
Anyone whos actually done even a little bit of game programming -- however amatuer -- should be able to pretty much imagine what this code looks like without any difficulty, programming isn't any sort of mysticism, its very logical and straightforward once you are familiar with the language.
The pet ai isn't a deal breaker for me, but it does irritate me everytime I play the game, which shouldn't happen. I buy my subs year at a time, and even when F2P comes out that won't change anything for me... its not like I'm going to rage quit after all these years or anything. Its just very annoying and I wish they would just spend the time to fix it and instantly make every MM (and other pet classes) happy.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Too many non-programmers post about AI code. People who aren't programmers should have the good sense to not talk about code, about how hard or easy something would be to implement because you don't know what your talking about. If you don't know what your talking about you shouldn't be talking about it. Common sense, right there.
AI code doesn't have to be that complex, and in this game, its probably nothing more then a few paragraphs of text. I've written AI code for other games before. (Quake, actually, sure its dated but it was far more complex than this game's AI). |
LOL, so first you tell us that no one should talk about AI, then you go and talk about AI. Plus, your "AI experience" is tweaking someone else's code, not real design work at all.
Yeah, call me when you've got some actual coding experience.
I think most of the people here understand when we use the term AI what we are really referring to is just scripting.
I have no doubt that fixing henchmen AI would be a massive undertaking that would probably require the team to basically re-write the entire code they use. That is why I have no doubt that other than tweaks and bug fixes that nothing will ever be done to really address these issues. Doesn't help that the powersets feature drastically different types of critters but they all share the same damn code.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I think most of the people here understand when we use the term AI what we are really referring to is just scripting.
I have no doubt that fixing henchmen AI would be a massive undertaking |
The Quake AI is written in C, not some scripting language (I checked before I posted above). The text files he's referring to are the source C files, which were released as open source by ID.
Scripting languages don't exist in a vacuum. Someone writes a C program to read them and do what the scripts say. JavaScript needs a browser; PHP needs a runtime. There's no such thing as a CPU that runs JavaScript directly. Those are C or C++ programs which run the scripts. So it all comes down to running on a real machine at some point, as implemented by a human being.
That said, yes I'm sure "massive undertaking" is an understatement. I think (guessing here) that the underlying code which runs the scripts would have to be re-written. There are some basic pathing issues that don't look to me like they're implemented in scripts (too low level, and must be fast). That code would have to be changed, then the scripts on top of them would have to changed to take advantage of the system changes.
No one starts out trying to write spaghetti code, but all code ends up there eventually. I'm sure it's a huge mess.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Too many non-programmers post about AI code. People who aren't programmers should have the good sense to not talk about code, about how hard or easy something would be to implement because you don't know what your talking about. If you don't know what your talking about you shouldn't be talking about it. Common sense, right there.
AI code doesn't have to be that complex, and in this game, its probably nothing more then a few paragraphs of text. I've written AI code for other games before. (Quake, actually, sure its dated but it was far more complex than this game's AI). Understand this: Video game AI is not like making a *REAL* AI at all. People confuse the two it seems because they equate video game ai as being similarly challenging. Its not. Video game AI is extremely limited and usually quite simple. It doesn't have to be very complex. Our pet AI sucks because the programmers got extremely lazy and we get to pay for it, and thats the truth of the matter. They probably copied most of the pet ai from the regular mob ai and added a few lines here and there for some mm specific stuff. The code is obviously very bad because the AI is filled with special cases like fleeing from fire and other stuff that overrides more reasonable actions. Anyone whos actually done even a little bit of game programming -- however amatuer -- should be able to pretty much imagine what this code looks like without any difficulty, programming isn't any sort of mysticism, its very logical and straightforward once you are familiar with the language. The pet ai isn't a deal breaker for me, but it does irritate me everytime I play the game, which shouldn't happen. I buy my subs year at a time, and even when F2P comes out that won't change anything for me... its not like I'm going to rage quit after all these years or anything. Its just very annoying and I wish they would just spend the time to fix it and instantly make every MM (and other pet classes) happy. |
Unless you have coded AI for a MMO then you do not have much actual code experience either. The reason every MMO to date has the type of AI it does is not because better AI isn't feasible but because every component added to AI costs you on the number of enemies and players that can be active at one time. It's possible that some optimization can be found but your conception of AI as "probably nothing more than a few paragraphs of text" is a couple of solar systems wide of the mark. In short, you don't know what you're talking about. AI is one of, if not THE biggest difficulties of programming a large scale MMO. Your proposed simple fixes wouldn't seem so simple when they cripple the game servers.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ketch
And Phantasm. No melee attacks, closes to melee.
|
Interestingly, you can create enemies in the AE with no attacks at all, and they will run up and crowd around you. I was going to use this in an AE mission for villains where you become famous and get surrounded by groupies who pester you for your autograph, and you have the option of killing.
Quote:
And due to the cascading nature of AI impact, there's a very big temptation to utilize lower level programming to eek a bit more efficiency out of the beast. Which, will make spaghetti code a lot more of a big pita to deal with.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Unless you have coded AI for a MMO then you do not have much actual code experience either. The reason every MMO to date has the type of AI it does is not because better AI isn't feasible but because every component added to AI costs you on the number of enemies and players that can be active at one time. It's possible that some optimization can be found but your conception of AI as "probably nothing more than a few paragraphs of text" is a couple of solar systems wide of the mark. In short, you don't know what you're talking about. AI is one of, if not THE biggest difficulties of programming a large scale MMO. Your proposed simple fixes wouldn't seem so simple when they cripple the game servers.
|
Let's Dance!
Quote:
Shhhh! You're going to give away our secret to job security! >,<|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
programming isn't any sort of mysticism, its very logical and straightforward once you are familiar with the language.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Scripting languages don't exist in a vacuum. Someone writes a C program to read them and do what the scripts say.
|
Machine code don't exist in a vacuum. Someone built the processor to understand your opcode instructions, added registers to store an manipulate temporary data, etc.
Processors don't exist in a vacuum...
.
.
.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by reiella
And due to the cascading nature of AI impact, there's a very big temptation to utilize lower level programming to eek a bit more efficiency out of the beast. Which, will make spaghetti code a lot more of a big pita to deal with.
|
You're right. In some ways, MMO AI is a case where spagetti code is partially a good thing (if it is done well). Performance is what matters most. A recent entry into the MMO market supposedly has an entirely seperate server devoted to creature AI in order to help it keep track of the huge invasions it creates.
Going back to the earlier statement about AI only being a few paragraphs of text, the reason I know this isn't so is that pathing algorithms by themselves are pretty lengthy. I don't know what pathing algorithm this game uses, but it is probably similar to a 3-D version of A* (pronounced "ay-star," like "a star is born."). An explanation of the 2-D version can be found here: http://www.policyalmanac.org/games/aStarTutorial.htm.
[The reason I assume this it's something like A* and not a mesh or maps with a baked in waypoint system is because in this game, enemies and players can fly. In a game where you can assume any player must always be on the ground, it's possible to build walkpaths directly into the maps more easily. Its also possible City of Heroes uses both approaches, in particular using A* when enemies are close by, and prefab nodes or meshes when far away (e.g. ambushes). A very long discussion about MMO walkmeshes that is somewhat controversial but shows good examples can be found here: http://www.ai-blog.net/archives/000152.html . You can see criticisms of the method described in the comments section. The short of it is that there is no one "right" way to do it, and that a lot of the time the so-called AI is actually driven by the map, which is why new maps take so long to develop.]
City of Heroes, BTW, introduces another challenge for AI in that unlike many games, enemies and pets here cannot walk through each other. I haven't paid enough attention to see if this affects their pathing. I suspect part of the reason enemies react the way they do sometimes is that despite having an apparant clear path to us, they can't "see" it because other enemies are blocking it at the moment it is calculated. The other possibility is that the "run away" mechanics are there to prevent enemies from running into each other if the whole group were to just charge the player at once. Regardless, I happen to think the creatures in this game are typically a lot smarter about geography than in most MMOs I've played, probably because this game was built with the assumption that players would often be shooting from mid-air.
[EDIT: As for the Mastermind pet behavior specifically, my guess is that they run up to enemies because the AI in general doesn't "know" what powers it has available in total. All it knows about are the powers that can be currently used based on having a target in range. It figures that it is always better to close in, because that might "unlock" powers that are currently unusable. I don't think it is strategic enough to plan ahead to run up and hit you as a specific strategy, for the same reason it doesn't think to queue a power up and jump at a flying player. Basically if the power can't be used right now it's not part of its strategy. Didn't there used to be a problem with enemies with melee attacks staying back at range and refusing to enter melee? That would be the same problem but with logic reversed. As annoying as having pets with no melee attacks run up to targets is, I have to say that as a blanket AI solution, it is more likely to work out for the majority of mobs than the reverse logic. And of course I could be completely wrong about the source of the issue, since I have no inside knowledge of the game's AI.]
Quote:
Thanks for posting those links, that was quite an interesting read.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
...Going back to the earlier statement about AI only being a few paragraphs of text, the reason I know this isn't so is that pathing algorithms by themselves are pretty lengthy. I don't know what pathing algorithm this game uses, but it is probably similar to a 3-D version of A* (pronounced "ay-star," like "a star is born."). An explanation of the 2-D version can be found here: http://www.policyalmanac.org/games/aStarTutorial.htm.
[The reason I assume this it's something like A* and not a mesh or maps with a baked in waypoint system is because in this game, enemies and players can fly. In a game where you can assume any player must always be on the ground, it's possible to build walkpaths directly into the maps more easily. Its also possible City of Heroes uses both approaches, in particular using A* when enemies are close by, and prefab nodes or meshes when far away (e.g. ambushes). A very long discussion about MMO walkmeshes that is somewhat controversial but shows good examples can be found here: http://www.ai-blog.net/archives/000152.html . You can see criticisms of the method described in the comments section. The short of it is that there is no one "right" way to do it, and that a lot of the time the so-called AI is actually driven by the map, which is why new maps take so long to develop.] |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Quote:
This is the first time a discussion about programming has gotten me hungry. |
Originally Posted by reiella
Which, will make spaghetti code a lot more of a big pita to deal with.
|
Can we finally get some fixes to this AI?
-I'm tired of these A holes running away from me, my buffs and even supremacy when in Defensive "FOLLOW" which I'm under the impression is not follow the fleeing enemy into the next group of enemies
-I'm tired of having to spam Goto in an attempt to keep these A holes right where I want them only to see them run up to the enemy to use garbage melee abilities that don't mean jack ****
Eff it my MM is my favorite character and got me back into COH after applying a cov trial code to my then long defunct account(ED, GDN) he represents 95% of my COH time investment and has all of his slotted abilities to VR so if the AI doesn't improve I'm going to premium status and unlocking him If I'm gonna be aggravated by wonky AI I might as well do it for free