So how OP'ed have we become?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-05-20 19:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Totally agreeying here....|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
I don't get it. You spend hours upon hours taking your lvl 1 hero/villain to lvl 50. And then once you get there, you spend even more hours min/maxing the build with IOs, then once you're done that, you spend more hours running incarnate trials to make yourself even stronger. THEN you come on here and complain that you're too strong??
This argument is as silly as a man suing Mcdonalds for making him fat or very muscular man getting upset with his gym for making him too fit. You reap what you sow people. Besides it's not like you HAVE to use your incarnate powers. There is the option to unslot them. Heck, it's not like you have to use your IOs either. Dual builds ftw. As for the OP, expect those numbers to halve once the rest of the incarnate abilities are introduced.  |
If your main toon now is too strong!?
If he is like Superman!?
Time to roll another Robin!
Try this again with a level 5 or do the same tf's at +4/x8! Or go without incarnate.. you can unslot them you know!
Challenges I like too though. Although not in the speed area. More in the levels they have. Several years ago I already did the tf's at +3/x0. Now I like even higher. An ITF at +4/x8 ends up as a madhouse. Another tip is the good (non-farm) AE content. My arc below at +4/x8 will give you more challenge again. As the mobs are a bit stronger then the avarage.
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i quoted to another poster... and my post was not aiming to answer your original post
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
How does this help me know what times people have run? Again, did you read my original post?
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defiant only
@amartia
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Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
Totally agreeying here....
If your main toon now is too strong!? If he is like Superman!? Time to roll another Robin! Try this again with a level 5 or do the same tf's at +4/x8! Or go without incarnate.. you can unslot them you know! Challenges I like too though. Although not in the speed area. More in the levels they have. Several years ago I already did the tf's at +3/x0. Now I like even higher. An ITF at +4/x8 ends up as a madhouse. Another tip is the good (non-farm) AE content. My arc below at +4/x8 will give you more challenge again. As the mobs are a bit stronger then the avarage. |
*roll eyes*
For goodness sake; I don't care how easy or how hard the game is for the purposes of this post. All I want to know is what times other people have run.
That's it.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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I apologize. It's rather frustrating to have a post hijacked by people simply debating a rather unrelated concern simply because you agreed that it actually is a concern.
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Originally Posted by preachmoore
i quoted to another poster... and my post was not aiming to answer your original post
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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Originally Posted by je_saist
-Stuff-
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God damnit, you made me go and agree with Saist! Thanks a lot!
Wow, what a shock, you 'levelled up' more and suddenly old stuff became easier. What a shock.
Did you try running these at +4? Because believe you me, Hamidon in LGTF and Romans all over still hurt a lot at +4 (+3 with Ishift)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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forums are kinda space for open discussion, "hijacked" is total wrong word here.... also if u wanted only an answer of simiral times, you should post in "players question" section
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
I apologize. It's rather frustrating to have a post hijacked by people simply debating a rather unrelated concern simply because you agreed that it actually is a concern.
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defiant only
@amartia
my public list : http://cit.cohtitan.com/profile/9355
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That is very good advise.|
Originally Posted by preachmoore
forums are kinda space for open discussion, "hijacked" is total wrong word here.... also if u wanted only an answer of simiral times, you should post in "players question" section
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Re-started this thread on that forum, with a more appropriate title.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
I think the argument is the wrong way round.
Its not that we have become too powerful, but that there isn't a new tier of content to work on which takes into account the Incarnate stuff. As a result, we keep running old content which we have effectively "out leveled".
Hopefully Paragon are working on more content directed at more powerful characters.
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Whether you mean to or not, using the term "Overpowered" makes it sound like you are nerf herding. No one likes nerfs, so if they feel like someone is calling for them, or calling attention them, they get annoyed. That is where the animosity is coming from.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
To clarify, I am not COMPLAINING about how over-powered we are; I am just 'conceding' that yes, it can make the game less interesting.
I am simply asking how fast have *other* people been running these so I have some sort of benchmark to go on. That's it. Really. I don't quite understand where all this animosity is coming from; simply because of the title and the fact that I agreed that the game _has become less challenging? n number of posts and most of them seem to concentrate of 'everything' but what I had originally asked; how fast are your best times. Is it that so hard to get? |
Really, I like it being that easy. When I want it harder, for some unknown reason, I just up the difficulty. Even with all incarnates +4 can be a challenge. Also incarnate, like vet badges, doesn't mean good player. One weak link can throw a master run into a spin.
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Out of curiosity, how many of the original posters are the same ones who always kept complaining they didn't feel 'super' enough?
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It appears I've been proven correct. Incarnate powers render regular level 50 content trivial, which means they require their own content, something Matt Miller keeps insisting we wouldn't need much of because Incarnates are "a system" and not "a TF that people will be done with in a week."
No, Incarnates are their own level range, and they require content worthy of an entire level range. Two, three, four or five Trials does not cut it. A large body of content of all types is needed. That's precisely why Jack Emmert argued against end game, and things must be getting pretty desperate if I keep bringing up things Jack did right as a contrast to things Matt and Melissa are doing wrong.
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Simple fact - if you want Incarnates to be noticeably more powerful than non-incarnates, then you need to treat Incarnates like a level range, not like a level 50 advancement system, which they are not. Incarnates are not like Inventions.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think you're (maybe) missing the point that times like that weren't that impressive before. For a Master Of, they're pretty good, but I've been on "speed Master" runs before Incarnate powers even came out. You just do a speed run and pay a bit more attention to not dying. (If you're playing characters who are good at speed runs, that's not a contradiction in concepts.)|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If that's "a little time," a Bugatti Veryon is only "a little more expensive" than a ford focus.
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I won't deny that Incarnate abilities have made that easier, but the biggest culprit on that has been the level shift we got with Alpha. The other big culprit allowing speed increases right now is Interface, which we know is being changed. When everybody with a damaging rain or patch power can melt whole spawns in seconds (especially when the spawns are -1 combat level to you), that's just going to speed things up a lot.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
For the OP,how bout having your team play with Incarnates slotted but with all the Power Challenges against your team,+4? Before starting a TF/SF/Trial,how bout choosing players debuffed,enemies buffed,AT powers only,no travel powers,no temp powers,no Epic/Patron,no inspirations,no enhancements then begin. If you and you're team can get the same times with the above settings,then I'd consider Incarnates to be OP for regular PVE content. Any TF can be run these days on +4 with Incarnate slotting a breeze but how about the power adjustments before running it? Would make for an very interesting run!
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I dont know.. ill let you know whenever I get enough drops to get to the tier 3's and 4's
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Dunno what mobs you fight or what toons you play but even on +4 just about the only thing that doesn't seem to immediately drop dead when I look at it is Rularuu.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
When I want it harder, for some unknown reason, I just up the difficulty. Even with all incarnates +4 can be a challenge.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Let me get this straight.
You gained new abilities. You gained new levels. You gained more buffs. You gained more debuffs. Then you ran...OLDER content... And you think that makes you overpowered? |
Well, that's cool if that's your thing, I guess.
In theory you're right, in practice it makes no sense at all.
@OP
Agreed, we've become massively OP. i20 drove me off 50s in no time.
But... it's not necessarily a bad thing. Simply not logging on those 50s, but rather playing lowbies again can be really fun. Maybe you don't find it fun, maybe you do... hard to tell - one thing is sure though: you can bring back that challenge in the game.
Moreover, you can still do those TFs. Even in crazy ways you shouldn't even be trying.
For instance: duo ITF on +0x4 by 2 lvl 39s (SK'd by TF to 49 - thus an effective rep of +1x4) using nothing but SOs for enhancements.
Whether or not you find it fun will differ per person, but it sure worked for me. Give it a go I'd say. Find someone who likes to play the same way and at the same pace as yourself and roll lowbies together. Old school gameplay - especially now with the incarnate mess - cannot be beaten.
Plus I bet for most people there are still some story arcs out there they've never run yet.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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I think it's meant to |
Originally Posted by Steelclaw
Slainsteel... for some reason I can't quite define... your name disturbs me... greatly.
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Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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However unreasonable as it may sound, I am in the constant quest to 'beat the game'; which in the context of an MMoRPG is basically impossible.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Dunno what mobs you fight or what toons you play but even on +4 just about the only thing that doesn't seem to immediately drop dead when I look at it is Rularuu.
So you invest all that time in making all your toons full incarnates and then pay your sub just so you can spend another month of repeating 10 minute BAF/Lambda runs? Well, that's cool if that's your thing, I guess. In theory you're right, in practice it makes no sense at all. @OP Agreed, we've become massively OP. i20 drove me off 50s in no time. But... it's not necessarily a bad thing. Simply not logging on those 50s, but rather playing lowbies again can be really fun. Maybe you don't find it fun, maybe you do... hard to tell - one thing is sure though: you can bring back that challenge in the game. Moreover, you can still do those TFs. Even in crazy ways you shouldn't even be trying. For instance: duo ITF on +0x4 by 2 lvl 39s (SK'd by TF to 49 - thus an effective rep of +1x4) using nothing but SOs for enhancements. Whether or not you find it fun will differ per person, but it sure worked for me. Give it a go I'd say. Find someone who likes to play the same way and at the same pace as yourself and roll lowbies together. Old school gameplay - especially now with the incarnate mess - cannot be beaten. Plus I bet for most people there are still some story arcs out there they've never run yet. |
Which is why I prefer that my toons be at the most optimal build possible, both in IO's and now in Incarnate content.
Again, I understand but not necessarily complain, about the ease of the 50 content with IO's and incarnate powers. My goal is just to get benchmarks, nothing else.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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Word for word what I would've told you until a good month ago. Litterally, precisely.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
However unreasonable as it may sound, I am in the constant quest to 'beat the game'; which in the context of an MMoRPG is basically impossible.
Which is why I prefer that my toons be at the most optimal build possible, both in IO's and now in Incarnate content. Again, I understand but not necessarily complain, about the ease of the 50 content with IO's and incarnate powers. My goal is just to get benchmarks, nothing else. |
You won't know if you won't try and obviously you don't have to try, but... you know, just leaving my advice.
If you would've suggested to me what I just suggested to you before i20 or even when it was just out I would've told you to go bug someone else with rediculous ideas, but now I'm having more fun than I've had ever since i8 and all the time I missed out on that was because I thought what you just said applied to myself just as much.
All I changed was I started ignoring 50 content, bar the odd duo run I only do because it's fun thanks to a fun duo partner.
Take it or leave it, but yeah... that's my advice.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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Ahem, um, no offense but, not asking for advise, asking for data |
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Word for word what I would've told you until a good month ago. Litterally, precisely.
You won't know if you won't try and obviously you don't have to try, but... you know, just leaving my advice. If you would've suggested to me what I just suggested to you before i20 or even when it was just out I would've told you to go bug someone else with rediculous ideas, but now I'm having more fun than I've had ever since i8 and all the time I missed out on that was because I thought what you just said applied to myself just as much. All I changed was I started ignoring 50 content, bar the odd duo run I only do because it's fun thanks to a fun duo partner. Take it or leave it, but yeah... that's my advice. |
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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I see, it seems I read too far and with that read too many replies which lost focus of the thread's intention quickly.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Ahem, um, no offense but, not asking for advise, asking for data
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In that event... the times:
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
I'm guessing a sub 20-25m MoSTF is quite possible, people managed it yet?
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Whether or not it's been done yet I'm not sure.
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
MoSTF: 28m41s
MoLRSF: 28m18s MoITF: 17m58s MoTin: 21m29s MoLGTF: 28m34s (this one was really slow :-\) |
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Originally Posted by slainsteel
These are not the best possible or even close to the best possible, so I was wondering what people run these things on now?
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But there have been a few times floating about that can be compared to these to give an idea of how good/bad it is.
MoITF was done in 18:28 "recently" as said in that post when it was 30-04. If at that time it was "recently" it was at just about the time the patch came that made our reactives do silly things. It's highly likely such reactives were not involved in that time in which case I'd think your MoITF time could still be improved a bit.
There was apparently a Tin Mage also before crazy reactives that was done in 13:something.
Granted, people may have died, but for comparison sake that's irrelevant. Temps weren't used which is all that matters, if people died that just means they could've saved more time by not dying and having to run back. Any time you were to put into improving your MO Tin Mage time would most likely not be wasted.
Another interesting thing to take note of is it seems that the more incarnate powers everyone has the less each individual person still matters.
Ofcourse you still need a minimum number of people to make it work, but on an incarnate team any additional people beyond that won't cut the time down by as much as on a non-incarnate team anymore.
Example:
You've done MoITF in 17:58. I'll assume that was with a full team.
If so, I've done an MoITF 153 seconds slower... with 6 people less...
The same people that ran the before-mentioned MoITF also did an MoKhan in 19:44 (have you done any MoKhan btw?).
Here the difference is a bit bigger, but still small enough to illustrate my point: duo MoKhan took 25:50.
That should give a few ideas to put your times in perspective.
For the exact runs you asked about I'll nudge the usual suspects that may've run them recently in-game in case they haven't seen this thread yet.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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Oh lovely, thank you so much. I was really looking forward to these numbers.|
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
I see, it seems I read too far and with that read too many replies which lost focus of the thread's intention quickly.
In that event... the times: STF has been done in 22:38 before. This was with temps, but it was also in i19, so if incarnate powers can more or less offset shivans/chem/bio then that sub 25 should definitely be possible. Whether or not it's been done yet I'm not sure. I haven't seen any recent numbers appear of exactly what you're asking for, MO versions of those TFs with full teams, that is. But there have been a few times floating about that can be compared to these to give an idea of how good/bad it is. MoITF was done in 18:28 "recently" as said in that post when it was 30-04. If at that time it was "recently" it was at just about the time the patch came that made our reactives do silly things. It's highly likely such reactives were not involved in that time in which case I'd think your MoITF time could still be improved a bit. There was apparently a Tin Mage also before crazy reactives that was done in 13:something. Granted, people may have died, but for comparison sake that's irrelevant. Temps weren't used which is all that matters, if people died that just means they could've saved more time by not dying and having to run back. Any time you were to put into improving your MO Tin Mage time would most likely not be wasted. Another interesting thing to take note of is it seems that the more incarnate powers everyone has the less each individual person still matters. Ofcourse you still need a minimum number of people to make it work, but on an incarnate team any additional people beyond that won't cut the time down by as much as on a non-incarnate team anymore. Example: You've done MoITF in 17:58. I'll assume that was with a full team. If so, I've done an MoITF 153 seconds slower... with 6 people less... The same people that ran the before-mentioned MoITF also did an MoKhan in 19:44 (have you done any MoKhan btw?). Here the difference is a bit bigger, but still small enough to illustrate my point: duo MoKhan took 25:50. That should give a few ideas to put your times in perspective. For the exact runs you asked about I'll nudge the usual suspects that may've run them recently in-game in case they haven't seen this thread yet. |
So regarding the MoKhan, yes, it took us 21m, definitely slower than the time you mentioned.
Regarding the ITF, I know it can be done much faster - I've had friends do MoITF's in 15m or so pre-i20, regular ITF's in 13m even.
I suspect similar times with MoLRSF; but with an MoSTF, I have not really seen accounts of it being done that fast (btw, we just did a 26m 0 deaths, no temps STF) - every run that I've seen under 28m seems to have been with temps. Of course, Shivans + HVAS + nukes are actually more powerful than most incarnate content due to the crazy debuffs and damage. I don't believe even Incarnate powers match that yet. Plus can't people keep just refreshing their HVAS if they have enough vanguard merits? I am not a big fan of MSR's so I haven't been able to test this on my own.
Which is why MoSpeed runs seem to be a much more reliable indicator of actual team time versus how many teams the team members got.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Yes, they broke the game.
I have cancelled my account after 7 years due to the whole incarnate mess. I see they deleted the earlier thread on why folks are finding it harder and harder to log on. Once you are this powerful and the game is completely trivial with no challenge - its is time to go. I believe the Devs killed the game. I have spoken to a lot of veterans of the game lately and we are all of like idea - time to go. This Incarnate stuff was badly conceived and implemented IMHO. |
OMG, if only there was a way of removing the Incarnate powers so older game content wasn't so easy to run with new powers designed to make you more powerful!
OMG, if only those Incarnate powers weren't permanently hardwired on my build!
Oh, wait...
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Most people just want the rewards off TFs so don't up the diff, but for fun or if several people are getting XP, then I normally do.
I may not have much of a life, but fully incarnating 63 50s is beyond me, I've T3 or better alphad twentysomething, but will concentrate on 5 or 6 for the other slots, just too grindy.
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