Massively.com looks back at Issue 20, talks with Matt Miller and Nate Birkholz about what's ahead
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-05-20 15:14 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
No new Incarnate slots in I21 was kinda hinted at already - but it's nice to see they're still reviewing the performance of the AE system.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I wonder how they'll be boosting the WSTs...
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It might be the patch on Test server right now, where Notice and Favors of the Well can be converted into Threads.
@Golden Girl
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Good article. It's nice to see a piece that's not just "everything is perfect the way it is" but that realistically looks at what could use some tweaking to make it better.
Someday I hope to be able to run the new mid-level Task/Strike Forces. 
-Buxley
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I found this bit interesting:
Quote:
Seriously? I was expecting far more from the LFG tool, things that are, IME, pretty standard for most A-list MMOs -- it's missing what are, IME, some pretty basic options: form group; join group; start with X members; open to all; open to coalition; open to SG.| Some of the "content-on-demand" niche has already been filled by the Team-Up Teleporter, which he goes on to mention was the biggest element holding Issue 20 from release simply because the team kept wanting to add new functionality to it for grouping. |
The management tools once a league has started, however, are good.
But as a tool for getting groups together? *shivers* It's awful.
Quote:
Agreed. The one thing we really needed, the thing we asked for at HeroCon and in many other opportunities to request features, was a way to mark an existing team as "looking for more". Basically, a reverse of the existing search/status tools. This feature could list the members in the group, their AT, and a line of text explaining what they were doing and looking for ("level 35 story arc missions", "Sewer team", "Newspapers in Grandville", or "MoLRSF looking for x,y, and z"), and they could set their team to allow auto-joining. Team seekers could search this list, and contact the leaders to see if they could join, or if a team was set to allow auto-join, they could click a "join" button and immediately be placed on the team.|
Originally Posted by Not_BC
I found this bit interesting:
Seriously? I was expecting far more from the LFG tool, things that are, IME, pretty standard for most A-list MMOs -- it's missing what are, IME, some pretty basic options: form group; join group; start with X members; open to all; open to coalition; open to SG. The management tools once a league has started, however, are good. But as a tool for getting groups together? *shivers* It's awful. |
I was surprised at what we got, as multi-team events work a lot better when organized, and I don't know anyone that has used the LFG tool since after the first couple of days I20 was live.
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I'll be honest: it might be a second-hand reporting distortion, but I found that to be an inexplicable statement to make regardless. I also have no idea how the one subject managed to get linked in any way to the mission architect.
|
Originally Posted by Not_BC
I found this bit interesting:
Seriously? I was expecting far more from the LFG tool, things that are, IME, pretty standard for most A-list MMOs -- it's missing what are, IME, some pretty basic options: form group; join group; start with X members; open to all; open to coalition; open to SG. The management tools once a league has started, however, are good. But as a tool for getting groups together? *shivers* It's awful. |
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Quote:
My interpretation was that the devs view the Mission Architect as "content on demand" because you can just stand in one room, pick a mission, and keep running content all day long. The fact that all missions are in the same location was a feature that I thought was very odd to promote when the AE went live (since it's something farmers would love), but they did do it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'll be honest: it might be a second-hand reporting distortion, but I found that to be an inexplicable statement to make regardless. I also have no idea how the one subject managed to get linked in any way to the mission architect.
|
Meanwhile, the LFG tool is content on demand because you click it and it (eventually, though I think they expected more people to use it, which would make it much faster) puts you into a trial, with no other effort on your part.
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Quote:
Even for me, that's a huge stretch.
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
My interpretation was that the devs view the Mission Architect as "content on demand" because you can just stand in one room, pick a mission, and keep running content all day long. The fact that all missions are in the same location was a feature that I thought was very odd to promote when the AE went live (since it's something farmers would love), but they did do it.
Meanwhile, the LFG tool is content on demand because you click it and it (eventually, though I think they expected more people to use it, which would make it much faster) puts you into a trial, with no other effort on your part. |
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I think it's a big stretch too, but that's the only connection I can infer from the context in the article.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Even for me, that's a huge stretch.
|
It feels similar to the rumor that they thought further Powerset Proliferation was unnecessary because of side-switching. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it's not the craziest thing I've heard from a dev.
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Heh, for me the LFG comment wasn't the one that got my curiousity.
It was:
Quote:
Maybe i'm just odd but it's like the reverse for me...it's once i get to the end-game that it gets grindy. *shrug*| On that note, the team is looking at the leveling speed between 30 and 50, the point at which leveling slows down and many players start abandoning their characters. Obviously, there's a caution about making a level 50 character trivial; at the same time, the game is no fun if the endgame requires a miserable amount of grinding to reach |
Still no mention of the content to alleviate that...hope it doesn't take them too long.
Quote:
Yes there was - they mentioned adding Trials in each new Issue, as well as several in between Issues.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Still no mention of the content to alleviate that...hope it doesn't take them too long.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Sorry, i should've specified the feature i was referring to was the one that they said to improve accessibility of the incarnate system to solo/small teamers. Not more large-group content.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yes there was - they mentioned adding Trials in each new Issue, as well as several in between Issues.
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EDIT: Oops, to further clarify. It was mentioned recently after i20 and not an old statement that referred to the thread conversion we have now.
CORRECTION: Ack, my mind has gone bye-bye. Just found that post by Second Measure and i guess it was a couple weeks before i20, but it still sounded like something they are still thinking about after i20.
Quote:
Ah you're probably right.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It might be the patch on Test server right now, where Notice and Favors of the Well can be converted into Threads.
|
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No new incarnate slots for i21, already knew that but still makes me sad. :'(
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@Caucasiafro
Quote:
Assuming the tradeoff is more content to play through, and maybe more proliferation, I'm okay with that. As it is, it's going to take a long time to get the four new powers on all the characters I like to play. I'd rather more content to unlock those powers (and future ones) too.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
No new incarnate slots for i21, already knew that but still makes me sad. :'(
|
For the article... I don't really find the level 30-50 stretch too long... the issue is more the lack of new content stuff to do in there. More stuff like Sutter and Mortimer Kal would be nice, that's for sure. Kind of the sad thing about levels below 30 is that you race through it so fast and don't hit all the good content in those levels. XP smoothing sure seemed to even it out nicely for me, so I'm rather surprised they're still looking at the issue, in honesty.
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Quote:
I think you're right; I don't think the devs anticipated that the primary way for people to join trials would be /broadcast in co-op zones. That's a pretty solid indicator of how poor the tool is for joining content.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Meanwhile, the LFG tool is content on demand because you click it and it (eventually, though I think they expected more people to use it, which would make it much faster) puts you into a trial, with no other effort on your part.
|
I hope the devs pull a rabbit out of a hat and improve LFG to the point where it's a viable option for putting together teams and leagues compared to /b.
Edit: and that an improved LFG is good enough to win back users already soured on it.
I think one of the problems with the LFG tool is that it's an alien way of teaming for CoH players - for 7 years we've been used to the idea that all non-solo tasks are done by one person forming a team by invites, so it was only natural that a lot of players were going to treat Leagues in the same way.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
well it was your standard PR article,highlight the positive, quickly gloss over the bad.
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IMO Issue 20 by and large is a step in the wrong direction. More grinding.. more farming.. more lag.. more disconnects.. less friendly teaming.. stupid participation metric that seems to favor certain builds, powers and/or abilities ( my tanks havent gotten any good drops and my MM's and toons that use pets ( or powers defined as pets have suffered ).
Forced to play through crap even though I might not even want that slot. For example my Robot MM would not take a judgement power. But he would take the Lore to get the clockwork Robots.. makes perfect sense.... However I cannot unlock Lore UNTIL I unlock Judgement even though I dont WANT a judgement power on that character.
Creating ANOTHER currency for the end game instead of allowing us to somehow use Merits and A-Merits and Vanguad Merits and the Shards we ALREADY had to unlock these new things.
The creation of just TWO trials which must be run ad infinitum and no guarantee whatsoever at the end that you will get what you actually NEED to progress. This is what ticks me off the most. This is what is the most broken...
Alpha.. I need a Hero 1 DNA.. I do a LGTF.. I GET what I need to PROGRESS... I need shards.. I do TF's that drop shards.. sometimes I get a lot.. sometimes I get few.. but I get what I NEED to progress.... Rikti Mothership raid.. I get what I NEED.. Hami Raid.. I have CHOICES.. Merits.. or Shards.. or a Hami-O ( which while random in roll I still get an opporunity to get what I need or something I can use which I can trade or sell )
This new crap.. I do the Trial.. and I swear 90% of the time after tier 2 I do NOT get what I need to progress. I cant trade it.. I cant sell it.. I can break it down.. or I can side swap it.. but THAT costs me influence.. and WHY ??//
WHY does it cost me 100 million friggin influence to craft a rare.. and 100 threads.. you dont think thats a little outlandish.. 400 million for a very rare.. look I know some people have billions sitting on a bunch of toons.. but guess what devs.. Every 50 doesnt have that.. I know I dont.. I might have 400 million across several.. I mean really I can do A-merit rolls for less than that and make my influence BACK several times over.
They made the system boring and OVER complicated IMO but adding MORE currency instead of using what we ALREADY had... They have YET to open Praetoria to higher level toons.. huge mistake IMO.. so right now it sets largely empty and useless. Anyone run an APex Lately.. or a Tin Mage ?? Why doesnt regular level 50 content drop threads.. Great shards drop when I am exemp'd down now.. but wait a minute.. Shards arent worth a crap anymore..
It just seems like really really poor implementation to me and I sincerely hope it gets much better.
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30 is the new 20
I doesn't need to go faster... it just needs a few things to make it more interesting to go through:
Another costume slot at 50
Mid-level specific Trials/Raids
Adding in more EATs; unlockable at 30 and 40
Base Missions (along the same lines as Cape, Aura and Costume Slot Missions) at 20, 30, 40 and 50. (for specific items/functions)
Expansion of systems (Tailor, Crafting, MA systems) at 20, 30, 40 (in addition to the already purchasable items)
Expansion of Safeguard/Mayhem missions at 20, 30, 40 and 50.
Adding in Cimeroran, Praetorian and RWZ (maybe even PVP?) versions of Safeguard/Mayhem missions.
Zone events (outside of GMs) that are specific to each zone
[Moving many of the craftable temp power drops down to the low(er) level range; where they're of more use]
[There's also that 'faction' mechanic that's used in both the Praetorian arcs and the Vincent Ross arc... how about a more general use of this (at least on villain side) between the Arachnos factions (representing their infighting) and between other NPC factions with actual ramifications? (-At both the Zone Map level and in an 1-50 overall sense)]
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Quote:
For a very short while on Freem (less than a day), people actually were using LFG to form trials. But, within a day, it was faster to get a league going in Pocket D. It wasn't that people were unwilling to use LFG, it was that /b in a co-op zone proved to be a much, much better tool for running successful trials.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think one of the problems with the LFG tool is that it's an alien way of teaming for CoH players - for 7 years we've been used to the idea that all non-solo tasks are done by one person forming a team by invites, so it was only natural that a lot of players were going to treat Leagues in the same way.
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Lest we forget, we weren't always able to invite people by clicking on their names in chat -- clearly, CoH players are willing to use new tools when they prove superior to existing tools.
FWIW, I think that having a participation metric for trials evolved out of a need to have the server police open missions for obvious leeches. If the primary tool for joining trials were LFG, having a participation metric would be a big deal since you have no way of knowing if you're teaming with a known leech or not. Since the players have by and large ditched LFG, the need for a participation metric is lessened because we have tools available for policing ourselves.
Actually, I found that article a tad more ... honest sounding(?) than most we've gotten lately, just not very much so. It wasn't all gloss and fluff, and at least hinted that everything wasn't hunky dory - something other articles tend to either ignore or (sometimes) misrepresent.
Still not very meaty. In context, that's OK with me - I'd rather see meaty things posted here. There hasn't been much of that lately, IMO, and I'm disappointed by that, but I don't expect that to be solved by game site articles.
I too am perplexed and bemused by the LFG tool comments. The league interface gets the job done, but the LGF queue? I'm sorry, but I think it's crap.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I've heard this theory elsewhere. I find it credible, but unfortunate if true. Even if we used the LFG tool heavily, I think an automated participation measuring tool is a poor solution to problem we don't know would exist at a level that calls for a broad-based solution. Worse, it's trying to apply an engineering solution to a social problem. While that's not impossible, it's not trivial, and I question the value of the effort required to do it well.
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Originally Posted by Not_BC
FWIW, I think that having a participation metric for trials evolved out of a need to have the server police open missions for obvious leeches. If the primary tool for joining trials were LFG, having a participation metric would be a big deal since you have no way of knowing if you're teaming with a known leech or not. Since the players have by and large ditched LFG, the need for a participation metric is lessened because we have tools available for policing ourselves.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
A lot has happened in City of Heroes recently, and Massively.com is there to take a quick recap at some of the updates and additions previous issues have brought. But the bulk of this article looks forward: Matt "Positron" Miller and Nate "Second Measure" Birkholz were on hand to talk about what's coming in future installments, including Incarnate Trials, Weekly Strike Targets, and Mission Architect.
Head over to Massively.com and read, "Looking back on busy times for City of Heroes with the development staff."