So What Constitutes "Participation"?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-11 11:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I actually think the trials are fairly weighted against some power combos. My Mind/Kin has been eating floor and was getting nothing but threads but my blaster has been doing great with a real difference in rewards. The frustrating thing is my kin is still as busy as ever and I can poke along on the blaster with the kin getting commons at best and my blaster has gotten uncommon and even a rare as drops not counting the reward table.
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Your impression is mistaken. 22 runs is not a statistically valid sample. Come back after 22 HUNDRED runs and tell us your conclusions.
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Originally Posted by jdogg_NA
Only problem is it keeps picking commons for me, I have only got 2 uncommons and I dcd those runs. I could see if only once in a while people get a rare or very rare (why it is called rare or very rare) However, 20 commons out of 22 runs, even a RNG will give better odss then that seems to me like it is broken and needs a fix soon.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I wish they'd just do away with 'participation'
People who genuinely try but are getting DC'd are getting put in the same camp as actual leechers....who, in reality, are getting kicked as they should do, and thus getting NO rewards. We don't need this brain-dead A.I. 'nanny' telling us to play nice, because the players have always managed that themselves. Instead, all it's doing is screwing over the legit players. Personally? I'd say remove commons from the chance for reward. That way people get the stuff thats actually hard to get, rather than the stuff you can get with contemptuous ease. |
I agree Tech and it isn't even just dcing. The Lambda trial can be a nightmare for anything squishy. I pulled out my Arch/Ice Blaster (50+1) and did some LAMs over the weekend. Just exactly what is participation? I helped clear the street outside the facility, helped clear the courtyard and helped take out all the turrents. I went inside and helped take down the Security Guard, THEN comes the part every squishy dreads.. I hit INV and headed in to TRY and destroy comtainment chambers and grab acids. I did managed to get a number of attacks in and even helped destroy a number of the chambers but I also died three times and have to hosp, or two times or ?? it varied depending on the run. On each of these trials I wound up with an acid and promptly went and closed a portal, reported my acid was used and checked my folders to make sure I didn't have any more. I helped attack the weapon delivery sites until we have every portal closed and then launched into the mob surrounding Maurader. Now results varied from trial to trial depending on the FX the league was generating but on a couple I had periods wher I WANTED to attck thing but I was sort of frozen and none of my attacks worked.. eventually this woild pass and i could attack again. On at least one I dc'd during this phase and had to hurry back before maurader died.
I never got a higher reward than an uncommon, most were commons and on the one trial where IO dc'd I got the dreaded 10 thread reward. I have been on trials where i spotted a solo player sitting outside when i was on my way back from the hospital to help my team. Now I am sure THAT personm got 10 threads and deserved them for hanging out doing nothing most of the trial. But if I am missing time in the fight because I DIED fighting how is that NOT participating? Let's just do away with the setup and make drops random like they do with purple drops or even just normal recipies and salvage. Sure it means that wall sitter I mentioned MAY wind up with a Very rare for doing nothing but it also means a lot of players trying their best have a shot at them too even if they do wiin Hospital a few times of DC.
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Getting a common does not mean "you didn't participate enough to get a Rare". |
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I never got a higher reward than an uncommon, most were commons and on the one trial where IO dc'd I got the dreaded 10 thread reward.
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Getting a common means "you participated enough to get a component, and the RNG gave you a common".
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Ok, you answered your question yourself. You did qualify as a participant on all but your disconnect. The devs have noted that hospital runs themselves don't disqualify you, so I'm betting that going to the hospital (as opposed to sitting dead for minutes on end, hoping for a rez and chatting with your sg).|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I agree Tech and it isn't even just dcing. The Lambda trial can be a nightmare for anything squishy. I pulled out my Arch/Ice Blaster (50+1) and did some LAMs over the weekend. Just exactly what is participation? I helped clear the street outside the facility, helped clear the courtyard and helped take out all the turrents. I went inside and helped take down the Security Guard, THEN comes the part every squishy dreads.. I hit INV and headed in to TRY and destroy comtainment chambers and grab acids. I did managed to get a number of attacks in and even helped destroy a number of the chambers but I also died three times and have to hosp, or two times or ?? it varied depending on the run. On each of these trials I wound up with an acid and promptly went and closed a portal, reported my acid was used and checked my folders to make sure I didn't have any more. I helped attack the weapon delivery sites until we have every portal closed and then launched into the mob surrounding Maurader. Now results varied from trial to trial depending on the FX the league was generating but on a couple I had periods wher I WANTED to attck thing but I was sort of frozen and none of my attacks worked.. eventually this woild pass and i could attack again. On at least one I dc'd during this phase and had to hurry back before maurader died.
I never got a higher reward than an uncommon, most were commons and on the one trial where IO dc'd I got the dreaded 10 thread reward. I have been on trials where i spotted a solo player sitting outside when i was on my way back from the hospital to help my team. Now I am sure THAT personm got 10 threads and deserved them for hanging out doing nothing most of the trial. But if I am missing time in the fight because I DIED fighting how is that NOT participating? Let's just do away with the setup and make drops random like they do with purple drops or even just normal recipies and salvage. Sure it means that wall sitter I mentioned MAY wind up with a Very rare for doing nothing but it also means a lot of players trying their best have a shot at them too even if they do wiin Hospital a few times of DC. |
Lambda IS a big squishie nightmare, but not because of the devs- because of the fire drill idiocy that's infected players there. I've run Lambda mishes where my scrapper gathers 2-3 squishies together and-- despite being poorly equipped to tank-- we all steamroll through all foes in the halls and rooms, clearing away everyone so any other stragglers don't get ganked just trying to navigate the halls. Its very effective, great iXP, and helps your teammates. I just wish more capable tanks did that more frequently so it would catch on.
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It depends on the probabilities involved and the confidence level desired. While I agree that 22 is too small, 500 to 1000 is probably enough to get a decent sense if the probability of a very rare drop is in the ball park of 1-2%. If a very rare is only 0.1%, then obviously you need a much higher sample size.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Your impression is mistaken. 22 runs is not a statistically valid sample. Come back after 22 HUNDRED runs and tell us your conclusions.
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From my experience, playing exclusively squishies (two controllers, a corruptor, a defender and a blaster, enough to get two of them four T3 incarnate powers), the drops seem random. I've been on teams where the lead tank gets a common and I get a rare on an Ill/Emp controller.
The drop table seems to be either weighted most heavily to drop uncommons, or to include performance in the calculation for the drop if commons are the most likely. That's from my anecdotal observation that I've got far more uncommons than anything else.
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I think this gets the heart of at least one problem with the rewards: because participation is required to get a non-thread reward, it is, IME, pretty logical for players to assume that, to get better rewards, you have to participate more.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Getting a common does not mean "you didn't participate enough to get a Rare".
Getting a common means "you participated enough to get a component, and the RNG gave you a common". |
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Lambda IS a big squishie nightmare, but not because of the devs- because of the fire drill idiocy that's infected players there.
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The devs, I believe, failed to consider player psychology in their design of these two aspects of the trials.
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I disagree. It sounds like it is doing EXACTLY what was intended. It sounds like you did meet the threshold and were rewarded with a table. Those tables are random and there is less chance in the randomness to get rares and very rares. So it sounds like it is happening exactly as intended.
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Originally Posted by jdogg_NA
I can honetly say that damage has nothing to do with participation. I have run 22 trials on my shield/elec tank and he does massive AoE damage and have gotten 20 commons and 2 uncommons....All of these trials ended successfully with no problems and each time I never had to go to hospital but I still get crap for drops no matter what I do in the trials. Bad part is the 2 times I got uncommon I dcd upon entering, so no I would have to say that participation formula is not working as intended. If it is working the way they intend it to then I forsee a lot of people avoiding the trials this really needs to be adressed.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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No, I put the flaw squarely on the players involved, not the devs. Trials and Raids are supposed to be about learning the best tactic. Some people have just become fixated on a "working" tactic that isn't necessarily the best, and they're ignoring the problem it causes. The problem is that the people seeing the "zerg" as an absoute failure in tactics aren't the people that actually need to change tactics. Those that don't experience the pain don't see a need to change.|
Originally Posted by Not_BC
I think this gets the heart of at least one problem with the rewards: because participation is required to get a non-thread reward, it is, IME, pretty logical for players to assume that, to get better rewards, you have to participate more.
Actually, yes, the devs implemented a nasty design flaw in Lambda -- they put the "gather temps" phase on a timer. That encourages players to zerg -- it's just in the nature of the gaming beast. If you have 5 minutes to complete a task, completing it in 3 is better than completing in 5. When players see see the numbers tick down, they assume "GOGOGO!". The devs, I believe, failed to consider player psychology in their design of these two aspects of the trials. |
If anything, I just blame the devs just for not penalizing the zerg behavior enough. Lose x seconds for each death during that phase and maybe some of the aggro managers will start frigging thinking about doing their job (yes, this is a bad idea, but I'm venting- the tanks would just blame the squishies for their deaths).
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On the other hand, the vast majority of the PvE game IS a mindless zerg where the right answer to any given situation is most likely "more AoE". To say "Trials and raids are supposed to be about learning the best tactic" is a little twee considering that trials and raids represent less than 1% of the PvE experience.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
No, I put the flaw squarely on the players involved, not the devs. Trials and Raids are supposed to be about learning the best tactic. Some people have just become fixated on a "working" tactic that isn't necessarily the best, and they're ignoring the problem it causes. The problem is that the people seeing the "zerg" as an absoute failure in tactics aren't the people that actually need to change tactics. Those that don't experience the pain don't see a need to change.
If anything, I just blame the devs just for not penalizing the zerg behavior enough. Lose x seconds for each death during that phase and maybe some of the aggro managers will start frigging thinking about doing their job (yes, this is a bad idea, but I'm venting- the tanks would just blame the squishies for their deaths). |
The game was designed as a fast-paced zerg from the outset, and the devs have, if anyting, dumbed down the tactics needed for any given situation almost from release (I could discuss this at length, but it'd be a monumental threadjack). To expect the playerbase to do a 180 and embrace a different style of play when the old one, by your own admission, works is ... interesting.
What I'm saying is that slapping a timer on something forces the mindset of "gotta' get it done fast" on most players, and that instinct, aided and abetted by the very design of the PvE experience from 1-50, works against the marginally superior style of: perhaps we should ponder the relevance of, perchance, a different tactic whereby we use all our allotted time to the mutual benefit of all particpants; to whit we move spawn by spawn as a team and send as many miscreants off to their unjust rewards as possible.
Scrapperlock has a very, very strong hold on this game.
Edit for an additional thought: teamwork could be encouraged if goody boxes and their attendant spawns became progressively tougher, either with distance from the door or with the remaining boxes and their attendant spawns being buffed as the other boxes get defeated.
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One of my first suggestions for this was that all the NPC defenders should have a "power" that increases its damage resist based on the number of allied NPC's surrounding it. That would make clearing the enemies a much greater priority while diminishing the effectiveness of the "tank runs ahead, ignores all others, destroys the box and runs away with HP to spare" tactic significantly.
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Originally Posted by Not_BC
On the other hand, the vast majority of the PvE game IS a mindless zerg where the right answer to any given situation is most likely "more AoE". To say "Trials and raids are supposed to be about learning the best tactic" is a little twee considering that trials and raids represent less than 1% of the PvE experience.
The game was designed as a fast-paced zerg from the outset, and the devs have, if anyting, dumbed down the tactics needed for any given situation almost from release (I could discuss this at length, but it'd be a monumental threadjack). To expect the playerbase to do a 180 and embrace a different style of play when the old one, by your own admission, works is ... interesting. What I'm saying is that slapping a timer on something forces the mindset of "gotta' get it done fast" on most players, and that instinct, aided and abetted by the very design of the PvE experience from 1-50, works against the marginally superior style of: perhaps we should ponder the relevance of, perchance, a different tactic whereby we use all our allotted time to the mutual benefit of all particpants; to whit we move spawn by spawn as a team and send as many miscreants off to their unjust rewards as possible. Scrapperlock has a very, very strong hold on this game. Edit for an additional thought: teamwork could be encouraged if goody boxes and their attendant spawns became progressively tougher, either with distance from the door or with the remaining boxes and their attendant spawns being buffed as the other boxes get defeated. |
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You see them getting kicked. That would be news to me I never see that happen. That might happen in a normal team but in a league no one has the time to monitor anybody else to determine who is or isn't doing what. The only time anyone was kicked on any league I have ever bin on in whine they clearly had the Lambda temp powers but weren't using them, was to stupid to activate league chat or listen to broadcasts, and couldn't be PMd. In a BAF unless they stay in one spot the whole game no one will ever notice.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I wish they'd just do away with 'participation'
People who genuinely try but are getting DC'd are getting put in the same camp as actual leechers....who, in reality, are getting kicked as they should do, and thus getting NO rewards. We don't need this brain-dead A.I. 'nanny' telling us to play nice, because the players have always managed that themselves. Instead, all it's doing is screwing over the legit players. Personally? I'd say remove commons from the chance for reward. That way people get the stuff thats actually hard to get, rather than the stuff you can get with contemptuous ease. |
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At one point, the drop table was bugged and dropping Uncommons far too often. That was fixed. Performance is not a factor in which type of salvage you get.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The drop table seems to be either weighted most heavily to drop uncommons, or to include performance in the calculation for the drop if commons are the most likely. That's from my anecdotal observation that I've got far more uncommons than anything else.
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Originally Posted by Not_BC
I think this gets the heart of at least one problem with the rewards: because participation is required to get a non-thread reward, it is, IME, pretty logical for players to assume that, to get better rewards, you have to participate more.
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(Not trying to correct you or anything like that, just making this very clear for any newbs who come along.)
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Okay so everyone says that there is merely a threshold to reach in order to get a reward but I have issue with this because...
Dominator: 47 Runs, 20 V. Rare, 23 Rare, 4 Common
Stalker: 58 Runs, 2 V. Rare, 5 Rare, 51 Uncommon
This makes no sense to me at all because WHAT is this RNG set to if the case is merely the threshold. I know without a doubt I "contribute" more on my Dom between debuffs, damage, and control than I do on my Stalker that is merely medicore damage. It isn't a thousand point test but it still gives a pretty weird picture of this RNG you have to admit that.
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You just demonstrated it nicely above. Random chance.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Okay so everyone says that there is merely a threshold to reach in order to get a reward but I have issue with this because...
Dominator: 47 Runs, 20 V. Rare, 23 Rare, 4 Common Stalker: 58 Runs, 2 V. Rare, 5 Rare, 51 Uncommon This makes no sense to me at all because WHAT is this RNG set to if the case is merely the threshold. I know without a doubt I "contribute" more on my Dom between debuffs, damage, and control than I do on my Stalker that is merely medicore damage. It isn't a thousand point test but it still gives a pretty weird picture of this RNG you have to admit that. |
The fact that it is random it how you end up with the oddly skewed results on the dominator. You should be having your Dominator buy some lottery tickets for you.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Okay so everyone says that there is merely a threshold to reach in order to get a reward but I have issue with this because...
Dominator: 47 Runs, 20 V. Rare, 23 Rare, 4 Common Stalker: 58 Runs, 2 V. Rare, 5 Rare, 51 Uncommon This makes no sense to me at all because WHAT is this RNG set to if the case is merely the threshold. I know without a doubt I "contribute" more on my Dom between debuffs, damage, and control than I do on my Stalker that is merely medicore damage. It isn't a thousand point test but it still gives a pretty weird picture of this RNG you have to admit that. |
Given that the devs have said overall league success is an important factor, how fast did the teams with the Dominator succeed at the objectives? How many objectives did they succeed at? Is it possible that your Dominator contributes SO much more that those leagues were consistently more successful?
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Except that this is not what happens. He got enough contribution to roll for salvage on both chars. The rest is RNG. (His dom is obviously a statistical outlier, that would be expected)
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Given that the devs have said overall league success is an important factor, how fast did the teams with the Dominator succeed at the objectives? How many objectives did they succeed at? Is it possible that your Dominator contributes SO much more that those leagues were consistently more successful?
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PM me the character names and server of those two characters, and I will ask the devs to confirm those drops and whether they represent random chance or a participation issue. If you can prove you got 43 out of 47 drops rare or very rare, that might say something about the leagues that character was on or a bug. Or it might be an extreme random case. The anecdote is intriguing, but without quantitative proof its just an interesting anecdote.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Okay so everyone says that there is merely a threshold to reach in order to get a reward but I have issue with this because...
Dominator: 47 Runs, 20 V. Rare, 23 Rare, 4 Common Stalker: 58 Runs, 2 V. Rare, 5 Rare, 51 Uncommon This makes no sense to me at all because WHAT is this RNG set to if the case is merely the threshold. I know without a doubt I "contribute" more on my Dom between debuffs, damage, and control than I do on my Stalker that is merely medicore damage. It isn't a thousand point test but it still gives a pretty weird picture of this RNG you have to admit that. |
The devs have specifically said, incidentally, that overall league performance will influence your component drops upward. So its possible your Dominator just happened to be on the better runs consistently.
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An alternate possibility is that the leagues were just as good in both cases, but the stalker for whatever reason wouldn't have qualified without league assistance and did with. nudging stalker from threads to commons.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs have specifically said, incidentally, that overall league performance will influence your component drops upward. So its possible your Dominator just happened to be on the better runs consistently.
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We don't know how Shade plays a stalker. It could involve running around away from teams.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Agreed - if a poll were done on this, I'd vote for it without hesitation
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I wish they'd just do away with 'participation'
People who genuinely try but are getting DC'd are getting put in the same camp as actual leechers....who, in reality, are getting kicked as they should do, and thus getting NO rewards. We don't need this brain-dead A.I. 'nanny' telling us to play nice, because the players have always managed that themselves. Instead, all it's doing is screwing over the legit players. Personally? I'd say remove commons from the chance for reward. That way people get the stuff thats actually hard to get, rather than the stuff you can get with contemptuous ease. |
I would prefer to drop the entire "random reward" system and move to a purely currency-based one. If they want to put a voluntary random roll at the vendors that is fine.* That is exactly how merit awards work, and the reason they were made that way is that getting to the end of a major event and then "winning" a Pacing of the Turtle is kind of insulting.
[*My question about all of this though is what exactly a random drop is supposed to achieve from a game design perspective. The way it's set up, it feels to me like "Congratulations! The game has randomly selected you to get to skip weeks of grueling trial repeats." It's like making level ups competely random. "Oh hey, it might take you 10 bars of XP to get to the next level.. or maybe we'll just randomly give you a level for no reason at all!" Having the best reward that takes a ton of effort to earn drop in a random table seems wrong to me above and beyond the overall issue with random drops.]
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Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Okay so everyone says that there is merely a threshold to reach in order to get a reward but I have issue with this because...
Dominator: 47 Runs, 20 V. Rare, 23 Rare, 4 Common Stalker: 58 Runs, 2 V. Rare, 5 Rare, 51 Uncommon This makes no sense to me at all because WHAT is this RNG set to if the case is merely the threshold. I know without a doubt I "contribute" more on my Dom between debuffs, damage, and control than I do on my Stalker that is merely medicore damage. It isn't a thousand point test but it still gives a pretty weird picture of this RNG you have to admit that. |
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
You just demonstrated it nicely above. Random chance.
The fact that it is random it how you end up with the oddly skewed results on the dominator. You should be having your Dominator buy some lottery tickets for you. |
If, however, the chance of getting a rare/very rare is in the vicinity of 20-30%, then it's not so weird, and it's easy to see how marginal increases in team performance could boost the rewards. The question then becomes, what rewards did other players on the team get? If they're just getting the kind of rolls his stalker was getting, it Shade's suspicion that something is not a simple random number is justified.
Either the chance of getting a rare/very rare is fairly high, or the contribution of team/individual performance can significantly boost the selection of your reward table.
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Hell no! Right now, you can generate most components in a reasonable amount of runs. It would not be so under a purely deterministic system. We already have Empyrean merits to provide a deterministic stopgap.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would prefer to drop the entire "random reward" system and move to a purely currency-based one. If they want to put a voluntary random roll at the vendors that is fine.* That is exactly how merit awards work, and the reason they were made that way is that getting to the end of a major event and then "winning" a Pacing of the Turtle is kind of insulting.
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| [*My question about all of this though is what exactly a random drop is supposed to achieve from a game design perspective. The way it's set up, it feels to me like "Congratulations! The game has randomly selected you to get to skip weeks of grueling trial repeats." It's like making level ups competely random. "Oh hey, it might take you 10 bars of XP to get to the next level.. or maybe we'll just randomly give you a level for no reason at all!" Having the best reward that takes a ton of effort to earn drop in a random table seems wrong to me above and beyond the overall issue with random drops.] |
Merits "lottery ticket" random roll was an absolute disaster. Absolutely killed the low level market for rares. In a no-trade, no-drop system like Incarnates it would literally be like everyone having to earn LoTGs solely via merits.
No thanks.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
OK to answer the op's question:
# The participation system's primary function is to qualify players for the component reward tables.
# Once a player qualifies for a component reward, the final block of choices presented to the player are rolled randomly. If you qualified for a component reward, you reached the level of participation for yourself and your league needed to have a chance at any component type.
* We will continue to monitor the data from the trials, and if we find instances where this is not the case, we will correct them to ensure that this is the case.
* It has never been possible to guarantee that you will receive a Very Rare. Once the participation system has done a handoff to the random table, it no longer has any effect on your reward. While reports of multiple Very Rares are not unexpected, these occurrences are evidence of consistent league success combined with a large amount of good luck.
# The 10 Thread table is present to make sure that everyone receives something for their efforts in completing the trial, regardless of whether they had to leave their computer temporarily, suffered numerous disconnections or any of another host of circumstances that could happen when content is out in the wild.
* We are aware that this also awards the door-sitters, which leads to the perception that this is a consolation prize.
* We are also aware that this is a point of consternation, because it is possible to get this table through acts of nature or acts of league beyond your control.
* The second item above is exactly why we felt it was better to offer some minimum tangible reward (which is the equivalent of half a Common component) to everyone for their efforts, even if they are affected by events beyond their control, rather than reward nothing.
# You are cooperating together against the challenges of the Trial. Rewards earned by you at the end of the trial have no bearing on what rewards other players can potentially receive. This is not a case of “there are only so many Very Rares to go around.” There’s no group loot table: everyone is rewarded independently and has the potential to qualify individually for a Very Rare. If your league does well, and you are a factor in that success, this will only increase your opportunity to earn a Very Rare component. You are not in competition with other players.
# To illustrate this in a different way: team and league contributions for completion of goals found in the trials are an extremely important part of your overall individual participation score.
* When your league is successful, you are successful, and your efforts at achieving goals help everyone else in the league. A rising tide lifts all boats.
* This aspect of the system is why people can sometimes seem to be rewarded for aberrant behavior. Your league has succeeded in meeting the goals of the trial, and their success carries over to you.
# Earning a decent individual participation score does not require an immense amount of effort, but it does require consistent effort. This is specifically because we are aware of the limited nature of some power sets in regards what they can throw at the enemies encountered.
* We know that leading one of these trials can take significant effort on the leader’s part, which is why our threshold for participation takes that into account.
* We also actively monitor the data from the trials to assess whether the thresholds are achieving what we hoped. We have made adjustments in the past, and will continue to do so as necessary.
# Four things that definitely do not affect your level of participation:
* Tagging targets
* Healing points or damage points
* Interrupting powers mid-cast
* Cycling powers on and off
# Any success that may have been achieved while performing actions which do not affect your level of participation listed above is, as noted, due to the success of your league and random chance.