Who has issues with Incarnate graphics?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-06 08:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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In addition, the silly idea that "I didn't pay for this to have toned down graphics" is in any way relevant... really. Who says the new graphics would be "toned down?" Different, in a way that WON'T affect people negatively, yes. "Toned down," no. (See old vs new sonic resonance.) |
Originally Posted by Hube02
I assume that this and the quoted post will be deleted, but anyway....
Do you know that there are certain frequencies of light that can cause epileptic seizures? Or that these seizures can be induced even in those that normally do not suffer from them given the correct frequency and color of flashing lights? Obviously not, or you would not have made the comment, your point of view or not. Headaches, minor to sever, caused by certain combinations of light color and frequency of animation are only minor symptoms. The same thing that causes some to have a headache could cause worse in others. By being concerned about and correcting these problems NCSoft would only be being civically responsable. Just because someone with a "disability" is in the minority does not mean you can just ignore them. |
I can only hope you're (meaning gohan, and others with this pov) never on the OTHER side of the table of this, where you or your friends are driven away by a few small animations causing them physical pain and/or siezures. (And as far as "I've never heard," I know for a fact people will just excuse themselves from a team or quit without saying "This is causing me problems" - or even know specifically that it IS causing them problems, they'll just suddenly have a migraine hit.)
And I do have to point out (looking at Cende's post,) while I'm not against that sort of a tool - again, I've seen enough people mention leaving for headaches that haven't pinned it, at that time, to a specific power. If you can tell the first time, hey, great - though you still have to deal with it that first time. If you don't know, or (like me with the original sonic) have never had migranes, etc. before so don't even think about the powers... that's a fair bit of needless suffering. Especially when you may not be exposed to the power all the time and even associate it with something going on in game.
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On the flip side, you can't just kludge a fix to satisfy anyone who complains.|
Originally Posted by Hube02
I assume that this and the quoted post will be deleted, but anyway....
Do you know that there are certain frequencies of light that can cause epileptic seizures? Or that these seizures can be induced even in those that normally do not suffer from them given the correct frequency and color of flashing lights? Obviously not, or you would not have made the comment, your point of view or not. Headaches, minor to sever, caused by certain combinations of light color and frequency of animation are only minor symptoms. The same thing that causes some to have a headache could cause worse in others. By being concerned about and correcting these problems NCSoft would only be being civically responsable. Just because someone with a "disability" is in the minority does not mean you can just ignore them. |
I seriously doubt anyone would be totally uncaring toward those who are affected by these sorts of effects, particularly if they've seen them first hand. But making major alterations to some or all of the powers would require a significant investment on the part of the design team and isn't guaranteed to eliminate the issue.
In short: An option to suppress the effects is a much more elegant solution. And when you're talking about computers in any regard, elegance is always better.
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All powers wouldn't be affected though. And, as mentioned, I'm not against being able to completely suppress them on your own screen - I wouldn't argue with seeing that at all. |
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
On the flip side, you can't just kludge a fix to satisfy anyone who complains.
I seriously doubt anyone would be totally uncaring toward those who are affected by these sorts of effects, particularly if they've seen them first hand. But making major alterations to some or all of the powers would require a significant investment on the part of the design team and isn't guaranteed to eliminate the issue. In short: An option to suppress the effects is a much more elegant solution. And when you're talking about computers in any regard, elegance is always better. |
BUT... as mentioned - you have to know that those are affecting you. And I'd prefer having the major players - those that cause the effect quickly/consistently and are going to be seen more often - altered. Such as Barrier.
After all, it's one thing to have a few people (such as one of my friends) bothered gradually by... I cannot for the life of me rmember the name now,t he widow status effect protection. That's something they may not see. Barrier? That's going off constantly in the upper levels - and just imagine a friend or family member playing COH perfectly happily for a month, then *bam,* hit with Barrier when they try their first Trial and getting a migraine or, worse, going into a seizure. Would you *necessarily* look at the game and say "Oh, that one power did that, let me adjust it?" Or even pin down the game itself as being the immediate culprit? (Don't forget, they've been playing just fine for some time.)
You have to know the problem is with the power(s) before you can turn off the effect. Programmatically it may be "elegant," but usage-wise...
Plus, of course, I'd rather have a few reworked now and bring the specific types of effects that cause problems to our devs (such as Tunnel Rat up there,) so they can avoid the whole situation in the future. Easier to fix a few now than fix ten full sets worth or something in the future.
If someone is having problems it's their job to find figure out what it was, and, as the option to suppress effects would offer, fix it.
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Originally Posted by Hube02
I assume that this and the quoted post will be deleted, but anyway....
Do you know that there are certain frequencies of light that can cause epileptic seizures? Or that these seizures can be induced even in those that normally do not suffer from them given the correct frequency and color of flashing lights? Obviously not, or you would not have made the comment, your point of view or not. Headaches, minor to sever, caused by certain combinations of light color and frequency of animation are only minor symptoms. The same thing that causes some to have a headache could cause worse in others. By being concerned about and correcting these problems NCSoft would only be being civically responsable. Just because someone with a "disability" is in the minority does not mean you can just ignore them. |
I am sympathetic, but IMO the issue is more complex than there being "certain frequencies of light" that can cause discomfort. These responses vary from individual to individual. There is no general consensus among either artists or health professionals about what images, specifically, should be avoided and what is okay. In particular, there is almost no guidance on how to deal with particle effects and graphic overlays once they leave the design workshop and end up in a game world that varies in color, speed, shape, size, lighting, etc and will reproduced on a monitor that varies in gamma in a room with variable light levels. Basically, if our developers got it wrong, it's not for antipathy, its that there is no definition of what "wrong" is for everyone.
I think if people are feeling ill because of the graphics that they should explain that and the developers may or may not be able to accomodate those changes. Unfortunately, because these responses are idiosyncratic, in the end there will still likely be some individuals who are troubled by some of them, just like some players get motion sickness, react to sound effects, have difficulty clicking or typing because of low mobility, etc.
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This thread has shown that certain graphics are a common cause of problems. Those things should be fixed regardless. Such as Static Field for example; it's also used by an enemy critter, and you need to know where it is so you can avoid it. Or Barrier. Some people might rely on the visual cue to know they have had it cast on them. Or that stupid temp power on the LGTF; it's an auto power, and does it even do anything? Why does it need to flash? These powers have been mentioned as problematic multiple times, so they obviously affect quite a number of people. For everything else, there would be client-side effects suppression. Yes, this would put the onus on the people who have problems with the less common triggers. But as you said, they can't catch everything.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think if people are feeling ill because of the graphics that they should explain that and the developers may or may not be able to accomodate those changes. Unfortunately, because these responses are idiosyncratic, in the end there will still likely be some individuals who are troubled by some of them, just like some players get motion sickness, react to sound effects, have difficulty clicking or typing because of low mobility, etc.
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Hey folks,
Thanks for the feedback. Ill take a look at Barrier and a couple of the other powers with multiple complaints. In the future, Ill try to avoid powers with an intense pulse, and spread the word to the other FX artists. This is about the best I can do with the limited time and notice that I have. Unfortunately, its impossible for me to fix every effect that causes someone discomfort, but I hope to fix some of the outliers that have triggered the most complaints.
A few of you have proposed a system that allows players to suppress certain effects or turn off buffs placed on them by other players. This is a possible long-term solution, but one that requires a significant amount of coding time. Since our programmers are swamped right now, this system is likely a long way off, if it is greenlit at all.
Sound effects are not a part of the VFX field, so I encourage those who are physically bothered by them to forward a list to Zwillinger or Avatea. Also, kindly keep this thread clear of complaints about effects that you merely find annoying or ugly. You are free to critique any effect in the game in other threads, but lets save this space for people who suffer migraines or seizures related to the VFX.
Actually, this could be something done by players, I guess. As a standalone program that creates the proper paths for the effects - Mai. Issues would be the fx files themselves. We already have similar mods for icons and sounds that are misleading/problem causing.
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Yep you're going to hate me even more for this but i actually did know and i simply do not care. I do not want other ppls problems effecting my game simple truth.|
Originally Posted by Hube02
I assume that this and the quoted post will be deleted, but anyway....
Do you know that there are certain frequencies of light that can cause epileptic seizures? Or that these seizures can be induced even in those that normally do not suffer from them given the correct frequency and color of flashing lights? Obviously not, or you would not have made the comment, your point of view or not. Headaches, minor to sever, caused by certain combinations of light color and frequency of animation are only minor symptoms. The same thing that causes some to have a headache could cause worse in others. By being concerned about and correcting these problems NCSoft would only be being civically responsable. Just because someone with a "disability" is in the minority does not mean you can just ignore them. |
I know it's true that altering the FX wont negatively effect my gaming but I am not a big one for change in fact i still have many toons with no power customisation or weapon customisation cuz i like how it was originally. Now i am not saying these things need to be reverted out but i am saying lots of changes happen in this game all the time we don't need to change FX for a small minority
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So. You have no health issues with the graphics.|
Originally Posted by _gohan661_
Yep you're going to hate me even more for this but i actually did know and i simply do not care. I do not want other ppls problems effecting my game simple truth.
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Why are you posting in the thread then? This is not an opinion thread. This is trying to find out who is physically affected by what graphics so Tunnel Rat and the others can have the information and rectify the situation (and avoid it in the future.)
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And I know you're going to hate me slightly more for this, but I don't want your eye candy affecting how many people I have to group with in this game. Simple Truth.
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Originally Posted by _gohan661_
Yep you're going to hate me even more for this but i actually did know and i simply do not care. I do not want other ppls problems effecting my game simple truth.
I know it's true that altering the FX wont negatively effect my gaming but I am not a big one for change in fact i still have many toons with no power customisation or weapon customisation cuz i like how it was originally. Now i am not saying these things need to be reverted out but i am saying lots of changes happen in this game all the time we don't need to change FX for a small minority |
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So you're saying I don't have a right to disagree with you? Or just to create a new thread which will just look like a troll thread?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So. You have no health issues with the graphics.
Why are you posting in the thread then? This is not an opinion thread. This is trying to find out who is physically affected by what graphics so Tunnel Rat and the others can have the information and rectify the situation (and avoid it in the future.) |
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You are disagreeing that the game should be modified when possible to not cause physical discomfort. No matter if it's a thread or response it's going to seem trollish.
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Originally Posted by _gohan661_
So you're saying I don't have a right to disagree with you? Or just to create a new thread which will just look like a troll thread?
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My only issue with the graphics is that the shield one slows my inputs to the tray. I can't target or the fire-offs are delayed/not accepted. I had this problem since i20 but I noticed it yesterday because I'm playing the game everday this week, LGTF. All lgtfs went smoothly this week except for yesterday which had mostly incarnates 50+. I do the lgtf tonight and tomorrow so I'll post if I have problems again.
edit: My issue is when I'm "shielded" by another incarnate 50+ or group shielded.
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This is not an "Opinion" thread. This is asking flat out who has problems - physical, "These cause me pain" problems. There's nothing there to disagree with. It's not a "Do you like this or not" thread. It's a "Raise your hand if this is you" thread. |
Originally Posted by _gohan661_
So you're saying I don't have a right to disagree with you?
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To put it another way, if I say "Who is allergic to popular pizza toppings and which ones," the correct answer is either "Me - tomato," or "Me - pepperoni" (or not answering because they don't bother you,) not "I'm not and those people can go kill themselves" or "I like tomato and everyone else should too." Answering like that - which is what you're doing - just makes you seem like a tool.
Re-read the original post. Especially the part in yellow. I have *no* tolerance for those who are going to sit here and just say "I don't care if other people suffer. They can FOAD." Not after what I put up with from those same people trying to get Sonic altered so that, oh, *more people could play and enjoy the game," as opposed to - for instance - last night when I came off of work just in time for a friend to tell me "sorry, logging - barrier induced headache."
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
...just imagine a friend or family member playing COH perfectly happily for a month, then *bam,* hit with Barrier when they try their first Trial and getting a migraine or, worse, going into a seizure.
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On the flip side, a person who is that susceptible to seizures who spends long hours looking at a video monitor or movie screen is gambling dangerously with their health. There is, sadly, a personal health maintenance aspect to this situation that the developers have no control over. Changing visual effects may partially lower risk, but it does not eliminate it. A person with extreme vulnerability to lighting effects "happily playing" for a month is engaging in extremely reckless behavior and needs to take serious steps to reduce or eliminate exposure. While specific visual effects can be triggers in some people, it is impossible to predict which people will react to which visual, and the only acceptable treatment is reduction or avoidance of possible input.
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Again, this isn't an opinion thread. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
On the flip side, a person who is that susceptible to seizures who spends long hours looking at a video monitor or movie screen is gambling dangerously with their health. There is, sadly, a personal health maintenance aspect to this situation that the developers have no control over. Changing visual effects may partially lower risk, but it does not eliminate it. A person with extreme vulnerability to lighting effects "happily playing" for a month is engaging in extremely reckless behavior and needs to take serious steps to reduce or eliminate exposure. While specific visual effects can be triggers in some people, it is impossible to predict which people will react to which visual, and the only acceptable treatment is avoidance of possible input.
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If a trigger is identified, it's completely acceptable to bring it to the developers attention so they can change it and/or avoid those effects in the future.
This isn't even about "extreme vulnerability." Someone may not *know* they're vulnerable to specific effects causing problems until they hit them - such as myself with the old sonic graphics. Finding ones that are causing problems in people that *do* have more extreme reactions (from migranes to siezure) can also assist those others.
(For a non-me example, there was actually someone (buried among those just being ***es) who had a legitimate problem with the *new* Sonic Dispersion - it actually DID send him into a siezure. He didn't know he was vulnerable to it. The only other time he'd been hit with that, he didn't remember, because it was in one of the SAW movies right at the beginning and he didn't remember that time at all. When he checked with a neurologist, he found it was an exceptionally rare trigger. He operated perfectly fine, playing the game for hours, before that. Now, how would he avoid this if he didn't KNOW about it to begin with, and didn't remember the times he'd actually been affected? - Also, I believe he argued against changing it again, since he could turn down the graphics on his end and not be affected and because it was so exceptionally rare. If I could remember who it was, I'd double check with him.)
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Again, this isn't an opinion thread.
If a trigger is identified, it's completely acceptable to bring it to the developers attention so they can change it and/or avoid those effects in the future. This isn't even about "extreme vulnerability." Someone may not *know* they're vulnerable to specific effects causing problems until they hit them - such as myself with the old sonic graphics. Finding ones that are causing problems in people that *do* have more extreme reactions (from migranes to siezure) can also assist those others. (For a non-me example, there was actually someone (buried among those just being ***es) who had a legitimate problem with the *new* Sonic Dispersion - it actually DID send him into a siezure. He didn't know he was vulnerable to it. The only other time he'd been hit with that, he didn't remember, because it was in one of the SAW movies right at the beginning and he didn't remember that time at all. When he checked with a neurologist, he found it was an exceptionally rare trigger. He operated perfectly fine, playing the game for hours, before that. Now, how would he avoid this if he didn't KNOW about it to begin with, and didn't remember the times he'd actually been affected? - Also, I believe he argued against changing it again, since he could turn down the graphics on his end and not be affected and because it was so exceptionally rare. If I could remember who it was, I'd double check with him.) |
It is not "opinion" that people with suscepibility to visual effects should limit potential exposure. There is a standard labeling on most video game products that speaks directly to this fact, as is the case with Microsoft products here:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/home/...e_warning.aspx
While some changes can be made to make the game safer for some suffers, it is simply the case that the risk is always there.
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And if we can lower the risk - the *very point* of this thread, which is for those who ARE affected to identify themselves and what causes the problem so it can be adjusted and those effects avoided by the devs in the future - so much the better, don't you think?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It is not "opinion" that people with suscepibility to visual effects should limit potential exposure. There is a standard labeling on most video game products that speaks directly to this fact, as is the case with Microsoft products here:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/home/...e_warning.aspx While some changes can be made to make the game safer for some suffers, it is simply the case that the risk is always there. |
Now, can we not clutter this up?
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I have one particular issue that I've only developed with I20 - Brightness from powers (Specifically Super Speed, but White tinted Sleet/Freezing Rain as well) has become a huge issue for me with the BAF trial. Normally I would crank my Gamma to 130% but that causes the environment to become pitch black. Getting a contrast control would be great. A workaround for the SS issue just involved me turning my Max Particle Count to 100 (normally I would run at max at all times), but this doesn't help with Rain effects.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And if we can lower the risk - the *very point* of this thread, which is for those who ARE affected to identify themselves and what causes the problem so it can be adjusted and those effects avoided by the devs in the future - so much the better, don't you think?
Now, can we not clutter this up? |
Now to the actual questions:
- Are you affected by any of the new Incarnate graphics? Which ones? (This is not someplace to say "Yes, I think they're ugly." I'm talking physically affected. Migraine triggers and the like.)
- If it's not you, do you know of someone who is?
- What problems (if you don't mind, I know this one can be a bit personal - but it helps to know "It triggers my migraine" versus "I get an uncontrollable urge to Samba.")
- Does anything (such as recoloring) help you deal with it?
For me:
- Unmodified Barrier and Clarion bother me. I found a dark green/red Barrier and a Red/Blue Clarion solved the problem - but then I have to modify all my costumes.
- No.
- I get slightly nauseous from it if there's enough buff bubbles nearby, or get headaches if the effects are too bright.
- Higher Gamma setting (I'm Light Sensitive)
One final thing - Void overpowers all other graphics, Blinding me for about 3 seconds, I'm not sure if that was really WAI (Pryo does something similar but only for a split second).
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I've been having problems with Barrier. After about two or three uses, I start to get a headache. I'm not sure what part is giving it to me though.
I'm mostly sure that it's from the initial Big HUGE WHITE Flash, if I close my eyes just before the flash then my headache doesn't hit. But I still get a small amount of eye strain from the shield effect. It doesn't seem to matter what color I make it, but I haven't tested it with bright colors, just the default and dark blues in my attempt to make it as invisible as possible.
This may go back to the original Sonic graphics. The Sonic Shields would give me a headache withing a minute of being put on my toons, and give me far more eye strain than 10+ Hours of TV or Gaming ever had.
Thing is, I'm not prone to seizures; I've watched the banned 'Seizure Pokemon' episode and wondered what the deal was and have enjoyed many other anime that had wildly flashing colors or patterns that have been known to cause problems without any side effects on my part.
I'm also not allergic to tomatoes or pepperoni. I'm allergic to Eucalyptus. If I'm around the tree, I get flu-like symptoms within ten minutes. If it's in a body care product, like one anti-pimple soap I tried, it'll turn my skin red with only a light application and immediate washing off (as the instructions say to do) and felt like my skin was starting to burn. Sorry for the topic drift. ^.^;
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Thank you for your consideration, Tunnel Rat.
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Originally Posted by Tunnel Rat
Hey folks,
Thanks for the feedback. Ill take a look at Barrier and a couple of the other powers with multiple complaints. In the future, Ill try to avoid powers with an intense pulse, and spread the word to the other FX artists. This is about the best I can do with the limited time and notice that I have. Unfortunately, its impossible for me to fix every effect that causes someone discomfort, but I hope to fix some of the outliers that have triggered the most complaints. |
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As stupid as this is, I actually subjected myself to the barrier graphics for a few nights in a row, working through the migraine to have barrier put on me multiple times each night. I think I have figured out what is causing the problem for me (note that this is only for me, I don't know if it's the same for others).|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm looking for information on this. Is it the fact that the effect is going off so close to the camera? Is it the steady pattern? The reason I ask is that I'm surprised (as I'm sure most effect developers would be) that a shield power would trigger a headache, but the stacking effects of 8-24 team members don't. I have characters that produce extremely dramatic color shifts. I don't get headaches and know very little about how that is potentially contributing.
[PS while we're on it, I think the Sonic bubble graphic is still kind of bugged on low graphic settings. It is practically opaque and extremely difficult to see through.] |
The speed at which the "lines" in the bubble pulse, and the number of "lines" that there are (there are a lot of them!), as well as the transparency of the bubble itself are what seem to be triggering my migraines.
I find that graphics for powers in the game that are less transparent don't tend to cause me issue. For instance, when people use the "dark" option for for other bubbles in the game, or sonic graphics, I don't have an instant reaction to them like I do with the "original" or "bright" options.
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Sorry, but I have messed around with all the game settings in abundance and have yet to come up with something that can 'control' these particular problems.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Note that contrast/brightness/digital vibrance is highly likely to be influencing this, which you can control on your end.
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In short it's server side. Last night during the invasion i would get powers lag when i wasnt even close to ANYTHING. Just being in the same zone resulted in lag.
But my guess is Im wrong.
And yes, allowing players to adjust this for themselves would be best (i for one really love the animation for barrier yet its getting other people sick). But it might be really difficult to code and stuff, who knows.
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