Do we really have to grind these same 2 zones over and over?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 17:26 in Player Questions
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Which is exactly why I'm essentially ignoring the 50+ content until the devs realize their mistake and do something to correct the situation. For consistency with the rest of the game, the difference for a solo player to achieve the higher end slots should be in proportion to the amount of time it takes a teamer vs. a solo player to level from 1 - 50. |
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
10 Shards gets you 5-10 threads.
12 shards gets you 3 common or 1 uncommon piece of salvage. 10 threads get you nothing. 20 Threads gets you 1 common piece of salvage. 60 Threads gets you an uncommon. 340 Threads + 100 Mil influence gets you 1 rare. 1360 Threads + 800 Mil influence gets you 1 very rare GL getting 1,360 shards over 5 ish months (Assuming you can earn 10 shards a day every day) And that is just for the piece of rare salvage required for it. If you want to break down what you need total to get a tier 4. You are looking at 15 Commons 2 uncommons, 2 Rares and 1 Very rare orrrrrr 2,460 shards to reach 1 tier 4 incarnate ability. (Plus 1.6 Billion influence). Of course this will take you a little over 8 months of playing 1 character every day. To slot out 1 of your incarnate slots. Whats that? You want all four. I hope you didn't have any plans for the next 3 years if you are a solo player. |
For example: If a consistent team player can do it in 100 hrs of play time and a solo'er in 170 hrs. then the time it takes to fill all the Incarnate slots should be scaled to a similar ratio. The way it is setup now if way out of proportion, so far out of balance to the rest of the game, it could easily be construed as punishment/harrassment towards solo/small team players.
In time, I think the devs will come to their senses and scale the Incarnate costs down to be more fair to everyone regardless of their preferred style of play.
I think it would be nice or fair if I my alphaslotted toon would get the EP for the Judgement Slot on solo missions or other TFs/SFs - like a bonus when you completed a mish.
Why?
There are people who doesn't want to make the new trials and I'm sure there are people who can't do the new trials. I have a very old PC and doesn't have the money for a new one. So my PC would crash in the new trials with this amount of action on the maps.
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We came to the same conclusions in the beta. There is no real alternative methods that can be chosen for a reasonable time frame.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
10 Shards gets you 5-10 threads.
12 shards gets you 3 common or 1 uncommon piece of salvage. 10 threads get you nothing. 20 Threads gets you 1 common piece of salvage. 60 Threads gets you an uncommon. 340 Threads + 100 Mil influence gets you 1 rare. 1360 Threads + 800 Mil influence gets you 1 very rare GL getting 1,360 shards over 5 ish months (Assuming you can earn 10 shards a day every day) And that is just for the piece of rare salvage required for it. If you want to break down what you need total to get a tier 4. You are looking at 15 Commons 2 uncommons, 2 Rares and 1 Very rare orrrrrr 2,460 shards to reach 1 tier 4 incarnate ability. (Plus 1.6 Billion influence). Of course this will take you a little over 8 months of playing 1 character every day. To slot out 1 of your incarnate slots. Whats that? You want all four. I hope you didn't have any plans for the next 3 years if you are a solo player. |
Grinding of the two same trials and putting it on farm status appears to be the accepted policy now.
Something that irks me about the system (maybe one of you mentioned this already) is the need to also unlock the basic slot with the new forms of XP. For instance, I got enough threads last night to create my tier 1 Judgement power after 4 BAF runs (90 min or so). However, I could not slot it because I only have 35% of the needed XP. So that means I'll have to run the BAF another 8 times just to slot the thing I already made.
That's kind of dumb to me. I thought the Alpha unlock process was boringly repetitive, but this will be worse as at least I could autocomplete one mission of alpha and ghost/zerg the other 2.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Just got my Judgment unlocked and Pyronic from two runs of a BAF and a shard run of ITF. not really grinding by any means.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
10 Shards gets you 5-10 threads.
12 shards gets you 3 common or 1 uncommon piece of salvage. 10 threads get you nothing. 20 Threads gets you 1 common piece of salvage. 60 Threads gets you an uncommon. 340 Threads + 100 Mil influence gets you 1 rare. 1360 Threads + 800 Mil influence gets you 1 very rare GL getting 1,360 shards over 5 ish months (Assuming you can earn 10 shards a day every day) And that is just for the piece of rare salvage required for it. If you want to break down what you need total to get a tier 4. You are looking at 15 Commons 2 uncommons, 2 Rares and 1 Very rare orrrrrr 2,460 shards to reach 1 tier 4 incarnate ability. (Plus 1.6 Billion influence). Of course this will take you a little over 8 months of playing 1 character every day. To slot out 1 of your incarnate slots. Whats that? You want all four. I hope you didn't have any plans for the next 3 years if you are a solo player. |
also, if youre playing an MMO and you choose to play solo most of the time... ur doin it wrong.
of course if you do anything in this game by yourself its going to take a while. luckily, it massive and its multiplayer.
If you choose to pidgeonhole yourself by CHOOSING to be a solo player thats your bad.
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/em Clap |
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
My issue isn't with the grind. I'm a grinder. Back in the day you simply were grinding for levels and accolades. Your reward, you had lots of different characters you could play with 20% more HP 10% more end, and Archmage/Geas came in handy.
Then came IO's. You could grind out TF's to get Pool C drops, play regular content for A/B, run trials for D? (Something like that, you get the picture) You played all of the content and were rewarded for it. Then came purples, they were rare, you got them for playing at the level cap. Then came merits, you got them for playing any and all content. Letting you buy or roll for IO's. Again, the grinding wasn't bad. Then came Alignment Merits, you could get them from A. Doing everything you did to get merits, plus throwing some influence at them. Or running a set of tip missions. Then came incarnate shards. You had to grind out level 50 TF's for them, then do 1 special TF that changes weekly to get a "notice" Perfect example of grinding that was fun. You had all of the level 50 content over the past 6 or 7 years to grind out getting what you wanted. Then came issue 20. A whole new system of threads, Merits, Salvage all crammed into two trials. No other place in the game can you get them, no other content, no where. Just two instances that you have to run over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. For the Alpha slot you had dozens of TF's, Arcs, Trials, ETC to help you earn what you need. For the next FOUR slots you are crammed into running two trials over and over again. The worst part, given how much you are required to do to get these 4 slots unlocked, slotted, then leveled. The "Alt play" that made this game so much fun is essentially going down the drain. Point of the rant? You had it right with i19 and i19.5 with the alpha slot. It took effort, it took time, but you had variety and the ability to play alts and get meaningful progress on them. With i20 I find myself asking "Which character do I really want to play these trials every day for for the next several months, just so I can finish his build." The best part being, the 7 years worth of content is pretty much ignored and I am left to only grind out two trials over and over again. |
This is exactly how I feel. It's not that I don't like the new content...I enjoy how challenging they are, b/c in the end you'll really be able to see how much more effective your character can be once you get the slots unlocked and enhanced. I love that! I don't have any issues with something being initially challenging. Think Apex/Tin Mage the first few times around...that was a good balance to me.
What gets me is being locked into 2 trials to earn those rewards. I could get shards from any end-game content....Radio missions, MS Raids, 50 TF's, etc. Then there's this new currency required to learn again and utilize, that can only be *efficiently* earned by said trials, on a "league" event that requires a lot more setup/effort to get rolling than a normal team, or simply soloing a radio mission for shards. Not to mention being full of bugs that kick/quit/dc folks who've been waiting around for 10min to get the league setup.
I was on a BAF team yesterday on Freedom (formed in Pocket D) and whatever "bug" is out there forced all to quit three times in a row. Three times. Each time this happens players would rightfully move along to something else to have fun with, we'd pick up more, and then it would happen again. I left after the third round of forced disbanding. I know this will get fixed soon, but it was still horribad.
All of this considered, I have lots of toons. Given how much effort is required to get the slots unlocked and slotted, Ehh. We'll see. The alpha slot had it right, this stuff...not so much.
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Neat. You can say others are doing something wrong, b/c you're somehow the authority on how the game is played, that everyone pays for. |
Originally Posted by Longboard
also, if youre playing an MMO and you choose to play solo most of the time... ur doin it wrong.
of course if you do anything in this game by yourself its going to take a while. luckily, it massive and its multiplayer. If you choose to pidgeonhole yourself by CHOOSING to be a solo player thats your bad. |
No one has an issue with something taking longer solo, regardless if it's massive and multiplayer or small and solo. If you choose to solo things, and expect them in a reasonable amount of time for the slower reward rate, that's ....normal.
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That my problem. those that are choosing to solo and complain about it on the baords are complainingt that its going to take them sooo much longer. If one expects it in a longer amount of time, then i expect one would be complaining less|
Originally Posted by TheXor
If you choose to solo things, and expect them in a reasonable amount of time for the slower reward rate, that's ....normal.
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and yes, i have the Authority badge so nannynannybooboo
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The only person forcing you to grind anything is yourself because of your obsession to have stuff as soon as possible. Take a break and something else. You don't win a prize for getting stuff first.
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Agreed! Forbin is right if the "GRIND" is getting to you go do something else. Or in the mad rush to gain new powers have you forgetten that this issue also gave us a new 20-40 level task Force Blue side and a similar 20-40 level Strike Force Red side. The WST is the Imeprious Task Force which offers up the usual Notice, which can be converted to shards and shards to threads, and also give double Reward Merits.
Personally I don't see the trials as a grind but as a new challange and a new set of goals to reach. But even I took time out to run the ITF mainly because I wanted to see how my new powers would work on something other than IDF warworks.
I understand your concern.. I have 12 characters I am doing the incarnate stuff with and so far I have worked on one of them and have three slots open and only one at tier three for the added level shift. But I didn't get those 12 characters to tier 4 overnight and I did other things besides just running the same TFs over and over along the way. Also keep in mind that they have already said there would be more Trials to do in the future this is just the beginning. If it starts to feel like a grind .. go do something else for a while! They don't hand out badges for being the first to get all the new stuff done.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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You asked if you could get the various I20 slots by converting shards. MrLiberty, among others, gave you a very detailed explanation as to how you really couldn't. Your response to that is that you're now running new content, so I guess you agree with our assessment? Or are you of the opinion your ITF run really helped you out all that much? I mean, you got max, what, 8 shard drops plus the component (1 more shard!) out of that? So a whole 8 or 9 shards (converted to threads) for an hour (or less, but likely less shards on a speed run)? Or w/worse luck more like 4 or 5 shards for your time. Now look at MrLiberty's #s again and tell me how much those few shards are going to help your progress.|
Originally Posted by Longboard
Just got my Judgment unlocked and Pyronic from two runs of a BAF and a shard run of ITF. not really grinding by any means.
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I'm happy you unlocked & slotted the base slot w/2 BAF runs (and that ITF above). How many more to get to T3? T4? How about for all 4 I20 slots? Now, multiply that by the # of incarnates you're running. Please give me a rough estimate of how many BAF/Lambda runs you think you'll need for enough of your 50s to have a reasonable amount of I20 shinies. Then tell me what your threshold for "grinding" is. Of course, if you're happy w/just 1 incarnate w/a couple of T1 slots, no you won't be grinding at all.
Your rather cavalier attitude towards soloers also run counter towards what the game features, and what the devs more or less promised all along--that you'll always be able to solo your way to the top, and they we'll never be forced to team. CoX has always been friendly to solo play, no matter what your perceptions of what MMOs *should be* are. I don't solo incarnate content--that'd be silly currently--but I'm fully aware of how SoL avid soloers are for incarnate rewards and have sympathy for them.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Agreed! Forbin is right if the "GRIND" is getting to you go do something else. Or in the mad rush to gain new powers have you forgetten that this issue also gave us a new 20-40 level task Force Blue side and a similar 20-40 level Strike Force Red side. The WST is the Imeprious Task Force which offers up the usual Notice, which can be converted to shards and shards to threads, and also give double Reward Merits.
Personally I don't see the trials as a grind but as a new challange and a new set of goals to reach. But even I took time out to run the ITF mainly because I wanted to see how my new powers would work on something other than IDF warworks. I understand your concern.. I have 12 characters I am doing the incarnate stuff with and so far I have worked on one of them and have three slots open and only one at tier three for the added level shift. But I didn't get those 12 characters to tier 4 overnight and I did other things besides just running the same TFs over and over along the way. Also keep in mind that they have already said there would be more Trials to do in the future this is just the beginning. If it starts to feel like a grind .. go do something else for a while! They don't hand out badges for being the first to get all the new stuff done. |
Why are people defending the farming of two trials, but staged an uproar over the farming of AE arcs?
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There's a bit of a difference between "taking longer solo" and "minimum three years to unlock", don't you think?|
Originally Posted by Longboard
That my problem. those that are choosing to solo and complain about it on the baords are complainingt that its going to take them sooo much longer. If one expects it in a longer amount of time, then i expect one would be complaining less
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To put it in perspective for you, if the VEATS (introduced May 2008) were unlocked at the same rate as the incarnate powers via shards we'd just now be seeing the first of them in-game.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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That I'll disagree with.|
Originally Posted by Longboard
also, if youre playing an MMO and you choose to play solo most of the time... ur doin it wrong.
of course if you do anything in this game by yourself its going to take a while. luckily, it massive and its multiplayer. If you choose to pidgeonhole yourself by CHOOSING to be a solo player thats your bad. |
CoX is a great game that happens to be an MMO.
Historically there has never been a wrong way to play it. Now suddenly there is?
There is no bad on anyone, nor are they doing it wrong.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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^^This. You don't have to grind. If you HAVE TO HAVE the new shiney now, then grinding is purely your own choice on the matter.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The only person forcing you to grind anything is yourself because of your obsession to have stuff as soon as possible. Take a break and something else. You don't win a prize for getting stuff first.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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There is no bad way to play. There is fast and there is not as fast. Fast = Team, not so fast = Solo.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
That I'll disagree with.
CoX is a great game that happens to be an MMO. Historically there has never been a wrong way to play it. Now suddenly there is? There is no bad on anyone, nor are they doing it wrong. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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yes.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
There is no bad way to play. There is fast and there is not as fast. Fast = Team, not so fast = Solo.
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Only now for incarnates it is fast or glacial.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Ok, I actually did 2 Lambda's back to back yesterday, 2 different teams, in both cases after clearing the outside,the courtyard and the walls people quit causing an epic fail. Why? because they get a few fast threads that way. and i guess its faster. I dont know myself, I have yet to have a team complete it. is this the new grind? i would love to see what the failure rate is. But that is excactly why i usually end up running solo or in small groups, and that im on durring the day when most folks are not. not a whine,just my opinion. i will play this game until they pry the mouse out of my cold dead fingers!
Junkyard Wolf
California Smog(CoV)
Far Rider
Durango Dave
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This is such a load. You're trying to be dismissive of people by accusing them of impatience, but it's the people who must have it right now who are going to have no problem running multiple trials. Those are already the people grinding purple drops.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
^^This. You don't have to grind. If you HAVE TO HAVE the new shiney now, then grinding is purely your own choice on the matter.
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The people who are patient and willing to wait will be screwed just as hard (and most likely harder) by the way it works. People who play less will play taskforces less. They will need to rely more on shard drops and eat more of the money sync surcharge for converting them. The people who play less aggressively and possibly play one TF a week are looking at half a year of little to no variety - per character.
If you're already doing 13 TFs in an afternoon, then it's no more grindy than your normal mode of play. If you're a casual player, then this is monotony made flesh.
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I am inclined to agree as it wasn't this way with the Alpha slot.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
yes.
Only now for incarnates it is fast or glacial. |
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It doesn't matter if I want them now or I want them a few months down the road, I'm still going to have to do the same two trials repeatedly. Doing the same content over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is grinding, regardless of the speed at which it's done.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
^^This. You don't have to grind. If you HAVE TO HAVE the new shiney now, then grinding is purely your own choice on the matter.
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Thinking about this some more, there is a grind aspect to the trials, the Incarnate XP needed to open the slots in the first place. For me, it took about 5 or 6 runs through Lambda Sector to open both of those slots. It took about 5 or 6 tries to almost open the first slot linked to the BAF.
Making the Apex and Tin Mage II task force enemies drop incarnate threads would help break the monotony of these two trials as well as add different ways to gain incarnate XP. It would also get people to run them, since you can get 6-10 threads plus merits and compnents in the BAF and LS trials while only getting two threads and maybe some shards in the Apex and TM2 task forces.
Hope springs eternal.
When the devs introduce a new feature and subsequently decide it is too easy, the resulting 'fix' is seen as a nerf/insult/outrage/slap in the face/poor design/whatever. It leaves a sour taste and a lasting impression. As an example, I offer the Cathedral of Pain trial and the stance that the disallowing of Shivans and Warburg missiles was both a result of poor planning and a 'bad precedent'.
When the devs introduce a new feature and subsequently decide it is too hard, the resulting 'fix' is often greeted enthusiastically and seen as the devs listening to the players.
I speculate that the new trials are deliberately extremely hard, for one (or both) of two reasons:
1) People are intended to have a difficult time until the trial level shifts are reached by a reasonable portion of the players.
2) Better to be too hard at first and made easier than the other way around, for reasons outlined above.
Either way, I think we need to wait until more people are level-shifted. Conveniently, you can fail every run you're on (like I have so far) and still unlock the incarnate powers and slot them.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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2nd this. As it stands, 2 threads are kind of a joke for Apex & Tin, and the shard drops are largely worthless if your Alpha's at T4 already. Or better yet, let every lvl 54 mob drop threads. More reason to run top-level content--BAF, Lambda, Apex, Tin, MRSs, etc. Hell, would give us reasons to set ITFs etc at +4.
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Originally Posted by Roboknee77
Making the Apex and Tin Mage II task force enemies drop incarnate threads would help break the monotony of these two trials as well as add different ways to gain incarnate XP. It would also get people to run them, since you can get 6-10 threads plus merits and compnents in the BAF and LS trials while only getting two threads and maybe some shards in the Apex and TM2 task forces.
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Thats what i understood... am i wrong?
In practice, it's an insanely slow way of doing things. Based on the rate at which I've been getting shards, I estimate I'd be slotting my first Very Rare enhancement sometime in mid-August of 2012. I'd finish filling all four slots (on one character out of 9) around the beginning of October in 2016. Given my current age, there's only about an 80% chance I'd be able to slot out all nine characters before I die.