Sooooo, I wanna kill an Av or Gm...
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-03-21 17:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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GM's regenerate at roughly 360 hp/sec
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
To kill a GM, you need at least 300 DPS I think it is.
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No not really.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
I believe th PI ones are "monsters," and not "giant monsters." I think that changes things quite a bit.
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If anything, those PI "Monsters" are significantly more difficult to take down than most Giant Monsters
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Well, I agree there's only one sensible, intuitive and unambiguous definition, which is the mechanical one. My fault for being sloppy with terminology there.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In the same way, there is one and only one definition of "monster" irrespective of what some critter designer seven years ago decided to put in the text label of the critter.
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But there's also some metafictional baggage attached to monsters, which is why I don't see the situation as entirely analogous to the rampant misuse of "accuracy." There seems to be a conceptual divide, for the most part well respected, between what constitutes a monster (usually bestial, primal, and/or really big) and an archvillain (usually reasonably human-like), Scrapyard and the the Hydra being the obvious exceptions on each side. In that light, CF Jurassik and Numina Jurassik, for example, are clearly monsters, and are called monsters, even though one of them is mechanically not a monster.
I remember when the "giant monster" concept was introduced, a dev--I want to say it was Positron--actually posted to explain the differences between monsters and giant monsters, and to assure us that monsters in instanced content would be the regular kind: which is to say, the kind that are not technically monsters at all. In that sense the devs created multiple categories of "monster" by fiat.
The problem, of course, is that the conceptual categories of monster/GM/AV the devs presented and the mechanical classifications of same a) do not map neatly to each other and b) are both trying to occupy the same namespace, which is just a recipe for confusion. That's the same basic problem you have with archvillain-class Numina and boss-class Kadabra Kill both being labeled "Hero," which is also a frequent source of confusion and which drives me nuts. I think the conceptual distinctions are important, but not so much so as to justify giving players misleading or apparently contradictory information.
So yeah, I let the flavor text influence my choice of words.
Calling the term "monster" meaningless was perhaps hyperbolic. Would you accept "ambiguously and often inappropriately employed in numerous situations"?
Actually, I'm now wondering if originally all "monsters" really were actual monster-class critters, especially since at the dawn of time they were considerably more fragile than they are now. I do recall both monsters and AVs were tinkered with early on; IIRC, a precursor of the current "levelless" GM system was introduced sometime after the first Halloween event, either as the cause of or in the wake of the infamous "Winter Lord babies" kerfuffle. Presumably at that point most instanced monsters would have become the AVs-wearing-nametags they are today, if they weren't already. If that was the case, continuing to call the instanced versions "monsters" could almost be justified as grandfathering in.
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I soloed (with a shivan) the Dark Astoria version of Adamastor with my Dark/Ice defender (before they added the 30% damage buff to Vigilance) when he was level 43, so I would think your level 50 Fire/Dark Corruptor could do it. |
Originally Posted by Brakkus
Greetings all!!
I have a question, I have been playing this game for several years now and have never killed an AV or GM solo... I have a Stone/WP brute, a Fire/Dark corr, a Dark/Fire scrap, a Stone/Ice troll, and a Ice/Fire tank all at 50, can any of these defeat one if built properly? If not, what AT can do it with the least amount of money spent and/or the greatest ease? Money isn't too much of an issue I guess, I just don't want to invest in a character to have him/her not do it. I have read in the individual forums and seen that this corr can or that troll can, but which is the best overall (if there is such a one). I would like my next build to be an AV/GM slayer. ANY and ALL advice will be greatly appreciated!!!! Brakkus |
It took quite a long time though, had to resummon my shivan a couple times.
I should go try it again and see if I can still manage it...
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Aim for soloing an AV first. It's quite a bit easier than soloing a GM.
For soloing an AV on the cheap, I would suggest going with either a bots/traps mastermind, or a fire/SR or DM/SR brute or scraper. Bots/traps can probably do it with SOs. Fire/SR and DM/SR can do some AVs with fairly minimal IO investment due to being easy to softcap and doing very good single target damage. Of those builds, only a bots/traps will have the possibility of soloing a GM. The brute/scrapper builds simply don't do enough damage, and they don't have a way of debuffing regen.
I would NOT recommend trying with an ill/rad troller or rad/sonic defender (or sonic/rad corruptor) first. Those are both excellent builds, but they will be very expensive. In order to survive the incoming damage from an AV or GM (which both can solo if built properly) an ill/rad needs to have perma phantom army (or close to perma) and a rad/sonic needs to be softcapped to ranged damage and have hover. Both of those build goals (perma-PA and ranged softcap on a defender/corruptor) are quite expensive (I know from personal experience that a perma-PA build is 4-5 billion, and that's if you use the spiritual alpha)
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Perma-PA is not necessary. It depends on the AV to some degree and you need to have practice, but you can take on AVs with Ill/Rad without perma-PA. The margin for error can be a little low with some AVs, particularly mez-happy hard-hitters. But Illusion actually has *two* indestructible decoys: the Phantom Army, and the Phantasm Decoy. People often forget about the second one, or think he's too unreliable to matter. But in a one-on-one fight with an AV, with careful jockeying you can leverage the Phantasm Decoy to take enough heat off of you to take on an AV without dying, and without needing temps or insps.|
Originally Posted by firespray
I would NOT recommend trying with an ill/rad troller or rad/sonic defender (or sonic/rad corruptor) first. Those are both excellent builds, but they will be very expensive. In order to survive the incoming damage from an AV or GM (which both can solo if built properly) an ill/rad needs to have perma phantom army (or close to perma) and a rad/sonic needs to be softcapped to ranged damage and have hover. Both of those build goals (perma-PA and ranged softcap on a defender/corruptor) are quite expensive (I know from personal experience that a perma-PA build is 4-5 billion, and that's if you use the spiritual alpha)
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I rolled up a test mission in the AE with our old friend Dreck. Not the hardest AV in the world, but I wanted something I knew I could do on the first try and in a short amount of time for the video. Actually, it took two tries because on the first one, even though I actually told myself "don't forget about Atomic Blast" I then forgot about atomic blast. You can see in the video, I didn't forget about Atomic Blast the second time (he goes boom right at the five minute mark, and I've moved comfortably out of its range when it does).
My build actually *is* basically a perma-PA build, so to simulate a non-perma build I turned off hasten, which created gaps comparable to the gaps created by Hasten's downtime in a non-perma build.
Voila. No insps, no temp powers, really its just Illusion and Radiation doing all the hard work. I didn't even turn on my epic armor (honestly, I didn't want to burn the endurance). So its possible. If you watch carefully, although I get hit with the odd stray shot, the Phantasm Decoy is drawing and holding aggro many times in that video. And you'll also see that at one point I got worried about the timing and just recast the Phantasm to reset him and force him to recast a Decoy.
But actually, I wouldn't recommend learning to solo AVs with Ill/Rad first either. A high damage tanker or high defense scrapper or brute would be the easier way. Until you learn how different AVs fight, or how to control your pets when you're not a mastermind, Ill/Rad is not the easiest build to learn on.
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Outstanding responses!!! Thanks for the tips and tricks all!! I think I shall try a bots/traps for starters.
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I did forget about the phantasm decoy. I've found my phantasm to be kind of spotty about bringing one out though, he doesn't always do it right after I summon him, and occasionally he won't do it at all. My phantasm is kind of spotty about a lot of things though.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Perma-PA is not necessary. It depends on the AV to some degree and you need to have practice, but you can take on AVs with Ill/Rad without perma-PA. The margin for error can be a little low with some AVs, particularly mez-happy hard-hitters. But Illusion actually has *two* indestructible decoys: the Phantom Army, and the Phantasm Decoy. People often forget about the second one, or think he's too unreliable to matter. But in a one-on-one fight with an AV, with careful jockeying you can leverage the Phantasm Decoy to take enough heat off of you to take on an AV without dying, and without needing temps or insps.
I rolled up a test mission in the AE with our old friend Dreck. Not the hardest AV in the world, but I wanted something I knew I could do on the first try and in a short amount of time for the video. Actually, it took two tries because on the first one, even though I actually told myself "don't forget about Atomic Blast" I then forgot about atomic blast. You can see in the video, I didn't forget about Atomic Blast the second time (he goes boom right at the five minute mark, and I've moved comfortably out of its range when it does). My build actually *is* basically a perma-PA build, so to simulate a non-perma build I turned off hasten, which created gaps comparable to the gaps created by Hasten's downtime in a non-perma build. Voila. No insps, no temp powers, really its just Illusion and Radiation doing all the hard work. I didn't even turn on my epic armor (honestly, I didn't want to burn the endurance). So its possible. If you watch carefully, although I get hit with the odd stray shot, the Phantasm Decoy is drawing and holding aggro many times in that video. And you'll also see that at one point I got worried about the timing and just recast the Phantasm to reset him and force him to recast a Decoy. But actually, I wouldn't recommend learning to solo AVs with Ill/Rad first either. A high damage tanker or high defense scrapper or brute would be the easier way. Until you learn how different AVs fight, or how to control your pets when you're not a mastermind, Ill/Rad is not the easiest build to learn on. |
So I stand corrected. It isn't necessary to have perma-PA to solo AVs and GMs with an ill/rad, it's just a lot more hit or miss if you don't.
I've soloed gms on a rad/sonic def and a fire/rad corruptor. You need defense to survive the attacks, -reg to kill their ridiculous regen, and high damage attacks and the endurance to use them over an extended period.
Your defense needs to end up soft capped (45% or more). Out of the toons you listed, your dark might be able to do it, but again, you'd have to end up with high defense, great recovery, and it would probably take a long time because if I'm not mistaken, it's tough to get a high% -reg up all the time on a dark, which means there will be periods where the gm will heal back health.
AV's are a lot easier than gms, and pretty much any toon can do it, with varying amounts of success and range of avs, if built properly. Again you need high defense, -reg helps but is not necessary if you have high enough dps, and a good attack string with enough recovery to use it over an extended period of time.
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That really isn't true, since AVs do vary very wildly from one another as you suggested. Manticore or Chimera may be easy to take down, but the more hazardous AVs (such as Silver Mantis, Positron, Statesman and Recluse) blow any GM out of the water in terms of difficulty
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
AV's are a lot easier than gms, and pretty much any toon can do it, with varying amounts of success and range of avs, if built properly.
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*Glares at Serafina*
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Originally Posted by Silverado
That really isn't true, since AVs do vary very wildly from one another as you suggested. Manticore or Chimera may be easy to take down, but the more hazardous AVs (such as Silver Mantis, Positron, Statesman and Recluse) blow any GM out of the water in terms of difficulty
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-Lord Azazel
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This isn't really true either though. It all depends on how you define 'difficult'. For my fire/sr scrapper, silver mantis and positron were much less difficult than a GM, since killing a GM is impossible for me. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
the more hazardous AVs (such as Silver Mantis, Positron, Statesman and Recluse) blow any GM out of the water in terms of difficulty
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The thing with GMs is that surviving the incoming damage/debuffs from them is not all that hard. In a lot of cases, it's even easier than fighting an AV. Actually being able to kill them on the other hand, is significantly more difficult, due to their enormous amounts of regen compared to an AV. So while silver mantis or positron might be more difficult than a GM to a character that is capable of soloing a GM (like an ill/rad), to a lot of other characters, they're significantly easier than a GM.
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They are if you end up with AVs that end up chaining Heals or Tier 9s faster then you can kill them solo. Yay for Unstoppable + Dull Pain, and Overload? Nothing like seeing a AV outregen you when you are about to kill them because they pop a tier 9 and thus become unkillable much like a GM, but still easily able to kill you back. |
Originally Posted by firespray
This isn't really true either though. It all depends on how you define 'difficult'. For my fire/sr scrapper, silver mantis and positron were much less difficult than a GM, since killing a GM is impossible for me.
The thing with GMs is that surviving the incoming damage/debuffs from them is not all that hard. In a lot of cases, it's even easier than fighting an AV. Actually being able to kill them on the other hand, is significantly more difficult, due to their enormous amounts of regen compared to an AV. So while silver mantis or positron might be more difficult than a GM to a character that is capable of soloing a GM (like an ill/rad), to a lot of other characters, they're significantly easier than a GM. |
Some of the more advanced AVs have a great deal of RNG involved, like does Recluse hit you repeatedly with his -end drain channelgun even while you are softcapped and drops your toggles? Or does Silver Mantis use her hardest hitting attack when she hits BU?
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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It's true that AVs exhibit a much wider range of difficulty than GMs do, but on average a GM is much harder to kill than an AV is. Recluse is one of the hardest, due to being a giant cheater. Silver Mantis isn't all that hard. You just have to learn to watch for the build up animation and then stay out of her way until BU wears off.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
They are if you end up with AVs that end up chaining Heals or Tier 9s faster then you can kill them solo. Yay for Unstoppable + Dull Pain, and Overload? Nothing like seeing a AV outregen you when you are about to kill them because they pop a tier 9 and thus become unkillable much like a GM, but still easily able to kill you back.
Some of the more advanced AVs have a great deal of RNG involved, like does Recluse hit you repeatedly with his -end drain channelgun even while you are softcapped and drops your toggles? Or does Silver Mantis use her hardest hitting attack when she hits BU? |
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Yes, but in this context we're talking about GM capable toons. Scrappers don't count (yet).|
Originally Posted by firespray
So while silver mantis or positron might be more difficult than a GM to a character that is capable of soloing a GM (like an ill/rad), to a lot of other characters, they're significantly easier than a GM.
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Also answer me this: are you more likely to die to Silver Mantis' Build Up? or to Babbage's boring attack chain consisting of 3 or 4 powers?
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I wasn't solely talking about GM capable toons, and you didn't make it clear that you were either.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Yes, but in this context we're talking about GM capable toons. Scrappers don't count (yet).
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Also answer me this: are you more likely to die to Silver Mantis' Build Up? or to Babbage's boring attack chain consisting of 3 or 4 powers?
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If we're talking specifically about characters that can already solo GMs, then as I already mentioned, some AVs will be significantly harder than a GM, and others will be easier. On average though, AVs may be slightly more difficult to such a character due to dealing more damage and having nastier debuffs usually.
Earth/Rad controller ftw 
Once Animated Stone is slotted well enough and you can heal him fast enough, very few AV will stand in your way. A good bunch of GMs too can be soloed with an Earth/rad.
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I'm gonna throw my vote towards ill/rad, but i'm partial to that because I have one and he's by far my favorite. He didn't start off as my main, but eventually became it. It takes some investing though to get it where you really want it (perma PA/AM/Hasten), but once you do, its amazing what you can do. I solo'd Lusca with my toon, and I don't think that anyone would say that is an easy thing to do.
I would also say maybe a sonic/cold corrupter, I'm working on one of those right now too, and the debuff/damage is awesome. But this is only my 2 cents and now a days more and more different AT's are able to solo AV's/GM's so you have quit a few choices to choose from.
I alos throw my vote to IllRad. And I don't think you really even need Perma-Phantom Army, though it would make things go faster. But if you want to pursue the IllRad option, look for Local Man's guide to IllRad controllers - it's one of the most comprehensive guides on the forums, and I think it even deals with AV's, and possibly GMs. I love my IllRad, it is a lot of fun to play, and quite different from other ATs.
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Rad/psi has been sufficient to take down everything in the game, including lusca, minus ukon grai. People don't like it when you run off with ukon for some reason.
Been tempted to roll a sonic/rad corr, or rad/sonic def for the same purpose.
Ill/rad is probably the most hands off/easiest, due to the invincible pets.
Most colds/rads should have no problem with any of them, rad is usually easier, or perhaps more straightforward, due to the heal. Traps/poison/dark on MM's should do well.
I know of people who have done GMs on stormies (ill/storm usually), dark defs/corrs. I'd expect a TA (atleast on an MM) to be able to, but haven't seen anyone report doing it on one.
I personally like Ill/cold more. Has a bit more -res and much better end from heat loss that AM can offer. BUT ill/cold needs more +rech and a greater investment to surpass /rad. whereas a lot of /rad's powers come in the form of toggles. Of course there is LR which does need a bit of +rech to get perma but benumb needs A LOT more +rech to get perma. And if you do use infrigidate (i don’t blame you if you don’t that power sucks) you can put a -res proc in there and its possibly going to go off a lot more than /rad could.
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@Caucasiafro
There are many examples of things called "monster" that are not actually monster-class critters, flagged to ignore combat modifiers or not. The Jurassik in the Numina task force isn't the same critter that spawns in Crey's Folly. The Crystal Titan in the Eden trial is notably squishier than the Quarries you fight earlier in the same trial, because it has far less HP than they do. The Kronos Titan you fight at the end of World Wide Red most definitely is not the same critter that ambushes you in Founder's Falls. Last I checked Portal Corp Adamastor and Psychic Babbage were bog standard archvillains masquerading as "monsters"--they even degrade to elite bosses.
Some of that content, I admit, I haven't run in a long time, so I can't swear some of them haven't been relabeled, but Paragon Wiki at least still lists all of them as having a rank of "monster." The end result is that "Monster" is as meaningless a label as "Hero" because it has no consistent meaning; it's flavor text that only sometimes conveys actual game-mechanical information.
"Monster" is about as meaningless as "accuracy." The term "accuracy" is abused to an even higher degree than "monster" is. But I wouldn't say the term "accuracy" is now meaningless. It just has a meaning that not all in-game documentation consistently honors. But we all know what accuracy is, even if the game itself is sometimes confused. In the same way, there is one and only one definition of "monster" irrespective of what some critter designer seven years ago decided to put in the text label of the critter.
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