Discussion: One game, one global server access
By
0verload,
Posted on: 2011-03-14 17:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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True enough. Although, as someone else points out down (up?) thread, he can change it to something more meaningful for him afterwards. |
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
That's just the login name. However, if there's a conflict about @GadgetDon, and he is Euro, and he first logs in on the character DonCocky, he will no longer be @GadgetDon. He will be @DonCocky, unless there already is a @DonCocky - then he will be @DonCock.
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Honestly though, I don't see what the problem is. Paragon is worried about data corruption... fair enough (although that does lead me -- as a database developer -- to question what their data structures are like for this to be an issue, but I digress). However, it seems more likely that the source of this potential data corruption would be the account rename, not the globals, since there is already a mechanism in-game for us to change globals and that doesn't corrupt anything.
So, since nobody seems to be complaining about the account names, why not keep the account name changes as planned, but do the global names differently (whether by wiping both EU and NA globals and letting whoever logs in first nab the one they want, or whether judging who gets to keep what by some sort of active/veteran priority system)?
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Actually it is completely relevant. It determines the level of court involved. What we are talking about is a blip. It is small claims court material, at most. What's a month's account in England? 20 pounds? 19 Euros? That is the MOST you'll get for wasting everyone's time. You'll be laughed out of court and told to move on.|
Originally Posted by Gaia
It would be down to the courts to determine that - also whether the item is virtual or not has no relevance but in any event that is unlikely to be the basis of any possible claim.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
How is it offensive - simple I am European I am being treated differently from a US account holder - I am offended or if the legislative changes pass X is European, I can identify with X, X is being treated differently from a US account holder - I and/or X is offended.
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For BRITISH law, you might want to take a look at this site:
Discrimination - your rights ( http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governme...ts/DG_10014458 )
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Who is protected? By law people are protected from discrimination on the grounds of:
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It goes further, and this kills the whole threat of lawsuit they can claim that they are helping European users:
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Positive actionPositive action is when something is done to help someone who has a protected characteristic. Positive action can be taken because:
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- You claim to be at a disadvantage due to your geographical location (something that isn't covered by the way). Check.
- From NCsoft's perspective, EU users are at a disadvantage because they can't access 11 servers, and have issues accessing the test and beta server. Check.
- NCsoft is providing more access, therefore this is a positive action.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
What I am doing is not making such a claim I am bringing to NCSoft's attention that this action risks making them vulnerable to others doing so.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
It costs little for them to take legal advice as to this now but if they fail to do so and someone does make such a claim then they risk considerably more. It may well be that their legal department advise them that the process of defending their actions on this could end up costing more than implementing a more equitable solution but in any event they need to take legal advice on this.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
Guess what! it would be much more likely for a group to look at a class action on this and not take it through the small claims. In practice I doubt it would reach the stage of anyone wishing to mount a legal claim but there is always the risk.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
In any event the issue is nothing to do with the actual process of merging databases - there is nothing about that which requires inequitable treatment of customers from different locales - especially given prior actions involving a similar process which was resolved more equitably.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
Oh and solicitors don't waste their time - they charge for it. Whether they win or lose they get paid. It is so much better for matters to be resolved equitably before there is any risk of legal action.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
Oh and just to make it clear here is the relevant section of legislation
Race Relations Act 1976 amended by The Race Relations Act 1976 (Amendment) Regulations 2003 Part IIIGoods, facilities, services and premisesSection 20 20F1. . . provision of goods, facilities or services.E+W+S.(1)It is unlawful for any person concerned with the provision (for payment or not) of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public to discriminate against a person who seeks to obtain or use those goods, facilities or services. (a)by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with any of them; or. (b)by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with goods, facilities or services of the like quality, in the like manner and on the like terms as are normal in the first-mentioned persons case in relation to other members of the public or (where the person so seeking belongs to a section of the public) to other members of that section.. (2)The following are examples of the facilities and services mentioned in subsection (1). (a)access to and use of any place which members of the public are permitted to enter;. (b)accommodation in a hotel, boarding house or other similar establishment;. (c)facilities by way of banking or insurance or for grants, loans, credit or finance;. (d)facilities for education;. (e)facilities for entertainment, recreation or refreshment;. (f)facilities for transport or travel;. (g)the services of any profession or trade, or any local or other public authority.. The relevant sections being 1b and 2e Any such claim would be made under English law in the English courts that being the applicable law of the contract made between EU account holders and NCSoft Europe. If necessary an action could be pursued in the US courts following such a judgment by virtue of agreements under the New York Convention |
2) The costs of any court case far exceed anything a player might win.
3) Look up the results of people bringing court cases up against companies outside their jurisdiction. In nearly every case I found, the customer lost.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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It may not be relevant to your reasoning, but I'm looking at this from a professional programming perspective.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
The total number of NA accounts and EU accounts is not relevant to this reasoning. The non-conflicting accounts will not be affected at all, neither EU accounts or NA accounts, so we can ignore them when we're assessing the damage.
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NCsoft has two lists of players. The larger list seems to be the NA list. The smaller list is EU user list.
What they are doing is taking the EU user list and adding it to the NA list. This affects less users in total (sadly for you, just the EU customers). Now to prevent the any possible damage to the new (merged list) as the computer inserts an EU customers record the program/database query checks to see if a conflict happens. If an existing entry (NA account or NA in game global) matches the incoming Account or Global Name the incoming account gets changed.
It isn't some vindictive person at NCsoft discriminating against Europeans, it is a simple mechanical process that achieves a unified account system for all players.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Snow Globe,
You are completely missing the point here.
The proposed changes involve imposing changes to the provision of entertainment services to one group of people on the basis of geographic location (ethic origin may also be seen as basis). These changes are to be applied in a manner which are not being implemented in a like manner or on like terms with that of another group of people based on the same criteria.
This disadvantages the former group in that their logins and global name i.e. in game persona will change - as these will not apply to NA account holders this falls within the definition of the RRA
Also Part one section 3
3 Meaning of racial grounds", racial group" etc.E+W+S.(1)In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires.
racial grounds means any of the following grounds, namely colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins;
racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins, and references to a persons racial group refer to any racial group into which he falls.
(2)The fact that a racial group comprises two or more distinct racial groups does not prevent it from constituting a particular racial group for the purposes of this Act..
(3)In this Act.
(a)references to discrimination refer to any discrimination falling within section 1 or 2; and.
(b)references to racial discrimination refer to any discrimination falling within section 1,.
and related expressions shall be construed accordingly.
As you can see European and North American do fall into the definition of racial group as defined by the Act and as such are indeed a protected group.
You might also wish to consider that BRITISH law - your emphasis - does not exist the EULA which form the contract is enacted under English Law - there are equivalent laws in Scots Law, that for Northern Ireland and I would expect to see the same for the Channel Islands and the Isle of Mann but they are irrelevant to this discussion
Any such action would be raised in the County court they would determine the size of damages or pass it to the High court should they feel it appropriate. That this refers to a service for the provision of something that is virtual has absolutely no relevance to the court where such a complaint would be heard.
Bringing up that we currently do not have access to as many servers would only serve to increase NCSoft's exposure to risk of claims for the past 6 years. I believe they could probably show that to be fair but courts may differ.
By your argument allowing access to the first 7 of these would not be a positive action - it would constitute the rectification of a previous disadvantage. The last 4 server increase is also applied to the US so there is no discriminatory positive action there.
It could also be argued that by not allowing NA account holders to change their global names afterward is also discriminatory. They might argue that this is only granted to users affected by the change which would be fair except that they are not affected by the change because of other discriminatory action and as such would constitute indirect discrimination under English Law - however NA account users' EULA is I believe enacted under the laws of one of the US states and whether there would be any claim for that would depend on the relevant law and it would require someone conversant in both English Law and that of the relevant US jurisdiction to determine how such would be resolved.
Oh and to simplify matter here's the location of the Act
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/74/contents
Note you probably should look at the current version with amendments as oposed to the original which would then require you to check each amendment as well.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Yep. But it's also a cheap and lazy simple mechanical process that also happens to be the simple mechanical process that affects the greatest number of accounts.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
It may not be relevant to your reasoning, but I'm looking at this from a professional programming perspective.
[snippety] It isn't some vindictive person at NCsoft discriminating against Europeans, it is a simple mechanical process that achieves a unified account system for all players. |
To be completely honest, I give f-all about the professional programming perspective. Some jobs are easier, some are harder, but it's the programmer's job to deliver a product according to specs.
I see this as a customer relations issue. Either the spec didn't take customer relations in account, or it valued the programming cost over the affected customers, or some programmer ignored the spec. Either case, it's unsatisfactory from a customer relations point of view.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
While the rest of the discussion/arguement is all still valid...
Court law? Really? I'd love to see that one play out;
"They stole my name!"
"Hmn....how and where?"
"In a video game!"
"....Get out."
It's annoying and far from ideal, yes. But It's not something you could, or should, sue over for pity sakes.
All it takes is a red name to confirm that trial accounts will not count, and recently created accounts will not be able to pick names that clash. And then make seniority the choosing factor.
Honestly, is that really that much to ask?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yes, because then they may risk upsetting NA folk.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Honestly, is that really that much to ask? |
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
I want the person that wrote the spec to do a better job!
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Betting that the person doing the "heavy lifting" on this little programming project is NOT the person who spec'ed out the system in the first place.
I'm also betting that "complete revamp" is not in the books either.
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| but it's the programmer's job to deliver a product according to specs. If that spec specifies "do as little damage as possible", then you don't do cheap and lazy solutions. |
Fast
Good
If you're an optimist, pick two.
If you're a realist, pick one.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Pity I edited my post to cut out my pre-coffee flames while you wrote your reply. 
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Well, if he's following the spec, I can't blame him for taking shortcuts. It's his job to do it fast, cheap and safely and according to spec.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Betting that the person doing the "heavy lifting" on this little programming project is NOT the person who spec'ed out the system in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'm also betting that "complete revamp" is not in the books either.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Cheap
Fast Good If you're an optimist, pick two. If you're a realist, pick one. |
This has been in the works for some time, and they have until the end of summer = half a year to for a data migration, so we can probably strike "fast" as well. It's not that they're building a completely new service. And I'm not in a rush - they can wait until CoH2, as far as I'm concerned.
That leaves "good".
Right?
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
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Argument has been brought up MANY times in the past... hell, not so long ago (ok granted maybe around the 2007 era) we were actually paying LESS than the Americans due to how currency conversion runs.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Considering that we euros paid for four servers, not eleven, for six years, and that the Euro and USD currency rates means that we're paying 50% more for just over a third of the service, I think we can strike "cheap".
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This has been in the works for some time, and they have until the end of summer = half a year to for a data migration, so we can probably strike "fast" as well. It's not that they're building a completely new service. And I'm not in a rush - they can wait until CoH2, as far as I'm concerned. That leaves "good". Right? |
It has actually annoyed me enough, that I really don't log in.
Sounds petty, but even though I *KNOW* I am losing my global (which as i stated before, I have had as a nickname for over half my life), I am not loosing any sleep over it.
Personally, access to a test server 24/7 and then access to a beta server makes up for the *slight* inconvenience.
So whilst you have been complaining about everything, have you actually thought about what your alternative global could be?
Oh, and this change *should* also help with us getting access to "closed" beta's as well.
Win/Win/Lose in my books.
You want equality, well it looks like Paragon Studios are *trying* to give us as many "pluses" as possible, for as many of the EU player base as possible.
Some of my friends who dont read the forums, but who I have told the change about, they were a bit "But i dont want to change my name, but I get all that? Oh its worth it".
They *USE* the test servers... they have been annoyed in that we (the EU players) have always been "behind" the US in terms of testing benefits (closed/open testing) that for them, the proposed changes (Even as they stand) are more than good enough for them.
Some of us don't like to use test/beta servers and are not interested in going any further than our home server, what do we do then keep our mouths shut?.
I personally do not want to lose my global over this migration into the NA database, and will voice my opinion over it.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Sorry, but the "We paid more for less for so long so we're owed" line of argument doesn't fly. While some modicum of sympathy for the disparity is evident, it's not going to change anything.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Considering that we euros paid for four servers, not eleven, for six years, and that the Euro and USD currency rates means that we're paying 50% more for just over a third of the service, I think we can strike "cheap".
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Additionally, there's no way of knowing what the operational overhead of NCSoft Europe is and why it necessitated a higher price structure.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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*shrugs* And i am just voicing MY opinion over it.|
Originally Posted by Slazenger
Some of us don't like to use test/beta servers and are not interested in going any further than our home server, what do we do then keep our mouths shut?.
I personally do not want to lose my global over this migration into the NA database, and will voice my opinion over it. |
It is just as valid as yours....
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Since when has difference of opinion been allowed on on the internet? For shame! |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
*shrugs* And i am just voicing MY opinion over it.
It is just as valid as yours.... |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I *think* it was because at the time of game launch it was "the normal price" to pay, so just following the market at that point in time. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Sorry, but the "We paid more for less for so long so we're owed" line of argument doesn't fly. While some modicum of sympathy for the disparity is evident, it's not going to change anything.
Additionally, there's no way of knowing what the operational overhead of NCSoft Europe is and why it necessitated a higher price structure. |
Is there actually a "minimum number of servers that you have to run before you can charge the "typical fee"?
(Side note: Up until end of 2008, the £/$ ratio was close to $2= £1 (more often around the $1.80/£1 ratio)
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Just because you said so ?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Sorry, but the "We paid more for less for so long so we're owed" line of argument doesn't fly.
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And right now, if you are paying in £, you are paying *less* than the Americans (only just, but even still, still paying less |
Originally Posted by Nemzzz_NA
Just because you said so ?
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)(£8.99 = $14.60, figure taken from XE.com @ time of post)
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No. You are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. The same amount of people would be affected either way with a straight-up merge. A nick collision is a nick collision. Period.
It's simply less work overall to prune a smaller database. Again, not supporting this. Just saying. |
My point is as now I am loosing my global name because the EU servers are being merged into the NA list, and I have an inactive NA account with the same global as I have on the EU servers.
This will be the majority of the situation, you even agree in previous posts. Now if the NA list merged into the EU list I would not be loosing my name, so I would not be affected.
Since there will be more EU based players with a secondary NA than the other way around, its quite an easy thing to figure out that although the Devs planned way is faster no doubt, my way would involve less clashes that would actually affect anyone.
The majority of the posts coming from EU is "I have an inactive (or second) NA account and I would prefer my EU to have priority" with very few "I'm worried someone else has my name"
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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On a side note, On Defiant we pool an estimated 200 global's per day with TF's a plenty and we are considered a low pop server.
What can I expect on a high pop NA server, as I have never been NA side ever so would be interested to know how far the EU fell behind on population.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
To the US players saying 'so what', let me ask you one question. The situation is reversed. The global you've had for years - and are known on the forum by - is changed. That ok by you?
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Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
I'd be absolutely FINE with the decision that it be the NA customers that take the hit INSTEAD of the EU customers. At least that would foster a more "welcome to join us" feel about the whole affair.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
[Insert Hyperstrike's quoted remarks here] No. You are wrong. My point is as now I am loosing my global name because the EU servers are being merged into the NA list, and I have an inactive NA account with the same global as I have on the EU servers. This will be the majority of the situation, you even agree in previous posts. Now if the NA list merged into the EU list I would not be loosing my name, so I would not be affected. Since there will be more EU based players with a secondary NA than the other way around, its quite an easy thing to figure out that although the Devs planned way is faster no doubt, my way would involve less clashes that would actually affect anyone. The majority of the posts coming from EU is "I have an inactive (or second) NA account and I would prefer my EU to have priority" with very few "I'm worried someone else has my name" |
I have been reading through this whole thread. While I do understand the necessity of NCSoft's actions and the problems that can occur, please keep in mind a few things:
1) Z has already stated some additional things (Quoted below):
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
On this day of merriment, frivolity and green beer, I come to you bearing updates.
So let's get down to Brass Tacks (yeah yeah...). We've been in serious discussion regarding many of the concerns expressed here. While some of our planning is still nascent, and as such I cannot go into a great deal of detail regarding our intent, I can state the following:
We're going to make every effort we can to ensure that your in game persona remains as intact while presenting the least amount of risk to character records as possible. As someone who's job it is to manage online communities and provide a place for people to build relationships, I understand the importance of your virtual identity and the value you're placing on it. |
Those EU players that have NA & EU accounts will have the opportunity to adjust the global they don't want to get messed with.
2) The actions NCSoft have taken over the last 6 weeks or so have been all in consolidating their logistical operations, if you think about it. I personally haven't cared for the implementation of these changes, but I can see now WTF is going on. There seems to be a serious attempt to streamline internal operations so we can still play City at the quality we as players have had.
Personally, I don't know if I'll try playing on Union or Defiant. Not for a lack of wanting. Heck, I don't don't even play on all the NA servers, but I like the fact that I have the opportunity to do so. That, to me, is a good thing.
3) This whole discrimination fervor. Sheesh...
I do understand how an identity is important to a person, but sometimes something happens and it can't be helped in anyway shape or form. This apparently is gonna be one of those times.
As stated above, Z & co. are gonna try and see if the changes can be done to the least amount of players. But the reality of it is some EU players are gonna have their Globals changed.
Finally...
What is happening, overall, is a good thing. let's be grateful for that and not concerned, in the short term (say the next year or two), that the individual servers are gonna be merged, ok?
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
Of course, they could always decide to add a required regional prefix to EVERYone's globals, making all NA accounts @NA_Global and all EU accounts @EU_Global, making said prefixes permanent. Then everyone "loses".
See? Fair. Even irrespective of vet status or whichever customer can manage to log in first. Less work even for those that have both NA and EU accounts, since they're both discreet and unalterable.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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If they had NOT announced the server merge (and were not merging the servers) would you still feel that you were "owed" anything for your monthly subscription fees compared to the US subscribers?
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Originally Posted by Nemzzz_NA
Just because you said so ?
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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hey! You! Stop this sense-talking nao!|
Originally Posted by tymers_realm
*snip!*
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nao mister!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
The total number of NA accounts and EU accounts is not relevant to this reasoning. The non-conflicting accounts will not be affected at all, neither EU accounts or NA accounts, so we can ignore them when we're assessing the damage.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.