Incarnates and Homogeneity

Tank-mages were specifically not what I was trying to discuss.

This has been a remarkably civil thread. Did you have to start this here?

But are they working with him or just taking advantage of the chaos to pursue their own ends?

Oh, you know who else appears in Incarnate content? Malta. Come on, you have to admit keeping Malta as pets would be poetic justice.

I don't like the idea of the pets being "essences" pulled from the Well either. Ditch that and make them an actual ally, or a defeated enemy that has been convinced, coerced, bribed or intimidated into working for you. Again, this would make it a pet that we earned, not one granted by the Well. Of course I want to name them.

Well yeah, since Primal Earth is the game's setting and all.

No matter what they do with Praetoria it will always feel like a second-fiddle tacked-on alternate universe to a lot of people. Everything there is only important as it relates to us. When I meet a new NPC the first thing I ask is "so which Primal Earth character is this an analogue of?" and I'm not the only one. So much emphasis has been placed on Praetoria's "mirror" nature that no matter what the devs do it will always be "evil goatee universe" in a lot of people's minds.

So yeah, the reason I have a problem with this is that I consider Praetorians to be an "entity" and a "storyline" spread out over more zones than most. It's not a game world in and of itself any more than the RWZ is a game world.

Yeah, this is my view as well. I remember all too clearly my serious disappointment with the PPPs. I ranted, raved, argued with many to no avail. No one seemed to understand the source of my frustration. Now, it becomes more clear to a greater majority, it appears.

At this point, all of you might as well face it: this is the direction the Devs have chosen. All of their resources are being thrown at this rather boring material. Nothing any of you say or write will alter it in the least.

I dislike all of this, btw: the Alpha and all the other Incarnate nonsense. It strays dramatically, once again, into the theme of my characters and alters it against my will. None of my characters belong in any story involving Praetoria or the Well. But, apparently, I have no choice if I want to develop them further.

I play thematic characters based on unique backstory. Up until the nonsense of CoV and further in GR, that was possible. I don't understand why this Dev Team has taken this path (diving deep into homogeneity) but it certainly isn't new---it started in CoV. This is merely a more dramatic and boring expression of it.

Their answer to this criticism will likely be the same as we got before: if you don't like it, choose not to use it.

Cal2

Yes, they'll sweep all complaints aside like a cosmically powered god-emperor sweeps aside all resistance - you must submit to the will of the devs, or be destroyed.
That's in the EULA, I think.

Just think of them as a special set of powers, like the epic/patron power pools

If we actually manage to get new players, to them Praetoria will be the 'main' universe, against which they'll be judging the primal content.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

I don't think that'd happen very often - not only because there are only 20 levels of Praetoria before players travel to the main game world, but also because the setting isn't as familiar comicbook-wise as the Primal Earth one - if you buy CoH as a superhero game, then the superhero stuff only starts once you leave Praetoria.

And yet, that's the point I want to make about that point, namely, as you get more and more power, what power do you wind up not having? It's the arc of homogeneity in that omnipotence is omnipotence.



No, it has not been civil. "I hate the Lore pets" is not the point of what you want to discuss and yet you let that go. There's a real blind spot of incivility when people feel they can piss on any thread about their personal peeve. I call them on it. Just like you believe you're calling me out on bad behavior. The only difference is, they started it. Why didn't you call them out on it?

Oh look, it's Zombie pretending to be a Mod again.

I'll say what I said in the I20 thread. If you think a thread is being derailed then report the offending posts and let the pros deal with it, because you setting yourself up as the arbiter of what is and isn't on-topic does as much to invite derailing arguments as anything.

What happened to you, Zombie? When I was on the forums a year back your posts were something I looked for, because you made sense. Now it's just complaining about other people voicing their opinions and agresssive defences of the endgame/incarnate system - which was always inevitably going to be an incredibly divisive feature... just like it is in every other MMO.

"Whoa, hold on guys. Lets not go through with this again."

There has been one usage of the term hate in this thread prior to your post. While a strong statement of one's opinion, it is far from the "tantrum" that you imply. The statement "Oh, I hate chocolate" is a strong statement of taste, but hardly uncivil. Asking someone why they're throwing a tantrum after making the statement does seem a bit that way.

As for the particular tangent taken in regards to the Lore slot, part of the homogeneity that we would like to avoid is the visual aspect of our powers. Power customization was so highly demanded and worth the effort because many of us are concerned not only with how powers behave, but also how they appear. Unique game play is important, but as evidenced by both past player demand and developer efforts, so are appearances in this game.

No matter what they do period it will always look substandard to a lot of people. In isolation, that objection ceased to have significant impact to me sometimes around late 2005.


You had me (at least insofar as I understood the objection, even if I disagree with it subjectively) until the very last sentence. Then you lost me.

<shrug> Maybe *you* changed.

Another, and very cool part, about this idea would be that while you might not be able to customize your pet, it could also become said that Lore wouldn't exactly represent an incarnate power (being acknowledge by the Well) but the rest of the world starting to acknowledge YOU.
Malta gunslingers hear about some of your escapades and for the first time in their lives think twice about their career path, throw off their M1 helms/cowboy hats and decide 'I'm siding with a winner', the Tsoo has watched you progress and see your new level of power and begin flocking to you as a deific champion, or Longbow/Arachnos agents abandon the sides of their COs, feeling safer and stronger at yours.

I guess somewhere in my mind, it's pie-in-sky, but Lore seems like it should be more like this.

Edit: oops, wrong thread

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

There are ways to deal with some of this with content. Origin specific powers that don't stack with existing powers, give magic something like "Eye of Orak" a toggle that gives a unique type of perception. Then give some magic using groups a new enemy type that 1) cannot be seen unless "Eye of Orak" is active. 2) has significant AoE defenses. 3) Has no attacks. 4) Doesn't need to be defeated in a defeat all mission. 5) Provides 30% resist all, 6% improved accuracy, and 12% improved damage to members of the magic group within a radius. 6) Has a 10% heal other on a fairly long recharge. 7) Doesn't count as part of a spawn, so it can be defeated at range without aggroing the rest of the spawn.

It doesn't gate the content, it could still be run by a technology origin character who had no chance of seeing the new enemies. She would have a harder time defeating the enemies than a magic user who could take the spirit down first, but if she wants to run the arc, there shouldn't be anything about the new enemies that make it entirely impossible.

I wouldn't uniformly give all magic users the "Eye of Orak", but I'd give them all the option of it, if it fits the concept. Leave it vague enough that it could be a spell or an amulet. And have a selection of little powers like these, that don't really do much for most of the game, but add a little bit of flavour in certain contexts. Maybe instead of the "Eye of Orak" the character has a sword that does unresistable damage to the Magic group that has these spirits. Similar end result as the person with the eye gets, but a different way to do it.

*shrug*

Positron, himself, responded to the PPP complaints with a similar phrase: don't like it, don't use it---you aren't required to, etc. Words to that effect.

This Praetorian stuff seemed really fun when it was first announced: choosing sides, the forum games with our logos and all. At that point, the Praetorian storyline seemed like a 'side issue'---I felt it was a neat alternative to the Primal setting--not 'required', by any means. But that's changing, isn't it? Now, it's the way things are, they way they are going to be. And, once again, all our own stories, powers, themes and the like are swept away IF we choose to advance these things further, beyond the core game.

I realize this is a necessary mechanic: all departments must follow the agreed upon design, policy and theme like any other business. It would be impossible to update the product, otherwise. Was there no way to provide for a more 'neutral' backdrop for those of us who prefer to progress our characters outside of this Praetorian theme, though? Why not?

Cal2

^^^ This.

Even the tone of these "in the interest of discussion" threads is irksome.

"Would you like the Incarnate System if if didn't have those horrible Praetorian Pets, or do you think it's fine if everything is stupid?"

You can't even participate without agreeing or you get a 'thanks for playing' and a snarky smiley to shut you up. Gah...

Do you really think that after all the work went into Praetoria - and a lot of work did go into it - that it was just going to be a "side issue" or a "neat alternative"? By the time your first Praetorian character finishes their initial time there, you should know that it's just the start of something bigger. It's funny how when Praetoria was first introduced, people were clamoring for the story to continue. Now that the story picks up again, people are clamoring for it to stop.

This game has a meta-story. It always has. Alongside all the little storyarcs we play through, there runs a larger narrative. In the comic book tradition, that narrative changes and evolves over time, but it's still there. And right now, the meta-story is about Emperor Marcus Cole somehow being chosen as the champion of the Well of the Furies and starting a campaign of multidimensional conquest, beginning with our dimension and our planet. And the threat presented by him and his army is so great that even Arachnos and the time-travelling Menders have both decided to intervene (albeit each for their own reason).

This isn't "sweeping away" anything as you suggest, unless you specifically mean canonical story elements that you personally choose to ignore because it doesn't fit within "your" paradigm. In which case ... I hate to break it to you, but outside of the Mission Architect, the writers at Paragon Studios have final say. This is their world, and we're all just playing in it.

When I mentioned Tank-Mages, I was referring to the original complaint that "people will be able to solo everything and won't need anyone else". That's what I consider to be the definition of a Tank-Mage. I didn't want to talk about that.

If you're saying that homogeneity is inevitable as you add more powers, that's an interesting response. I'd like to hear more if you have any more to say on the subject.

Because they weren't insulting posters. There's nothing uncivil about saying that you don't like a power (and I did ask for opinions on the powers). The Lore pets aren't going to feel the need to defend themselves, and then other people argue against their defenses for the rest of the thread like posters will when you call their opinions "tantrums". That's how threads get derailed, and immediately following your post it started happening.

I'm sorry if it came off that way, I'm trying to encourage people with that. There was no snark intended.

I don't have a secret goal of convincing the world that the pets suck. My "secret" goal is to hear other perspectives on the topic, and I've already seen several that have made me think differently about Incarnate powers, including those that like or don't care about the lore. If you have anything else to share, I'd love to hear it.

And thanks again to everyone that has responded with their thoughts on the topic.