Want a Notice of the Well solo? That'll be...

Mr. DJ · 02-13-2011 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

It's a buisness. No player owes the devs anything and the devs should expect complaints and criticism. If they cannot, they should not be in this buisness.

complaints and criticisms aren't really the problem...I've seen some people get the thought stuck in their head that they could do better than the Devs and provide no background to backup the claim, or if i13 showed anything, people can be just downright insulting, which resulted in people being banned, though they just popped back up in temp accounts and did the same thing.

Bosstone · 02-13-2011 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer

I thought this was going to be -content related- not "Here buy this instead GAWDUH"

I can get behind this, but I would rather get behind a very well done and challenging story arc that can be done either solo or with a small to large group.

It just makes this seem... I dunno if I'm being to hypercritical but... cheaply done? Not enough effort into developing content? What am I looking for here?

Okay. Expect that in i22, since resources need to be allocated to the project and i20 and i21 are already in the pipeline.

What? You want it ASAP? Well, in order to do that we need to minimize use of resources. We can do a cheapie workaround for you. Will that tide you over until we finish in-progress projects and can start working on this one?

IOW: Just how quickly do you think a very well done and challenging story arc can be completed?

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

CactusBrawler · 02-13-2011 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vox Populi

My point is, "challenging" and "solo" don't really mix.

If it's a tough challenge, most players are going to need a team, which brings us back to the same "forced teaming" discussion. And the Incarnate content should be a tough challenge.

Incarnate-worthy solo content is easier said than done.

Unless they focus more on gimmick fights.

You know fights where you must keep away from the boss, keep the boss away from an area, avoid certain areas yourself.

Alternatively just don't have the solo 'buy' method 'so pants on the head' stupidly unbalanced. Three hero/villain merits with a week long cool down on the purchase, heck make it four or five if you really want to make the team option the desirable method.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

Toony · 02-13-2011 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

complaints and criticisms aren't really the problem...I've seen some people get the thought stuck in their head that they could do better than the Devs and provide no background to backup the claim, or if i13 showed anything, people can be just downright insulting, which resulted in people being banned, though they just popped back up in temp accounts and did the same thing.

And I believe those people are more valuable to the devs than the ones who are essentially just yes men.

People who tell you when you screwed up and won't back down about it are more valuable to the progress of something than the person who never points out your faults and always says you're doing a great job.

Bosstone · 02-13-2011 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

And I believe those people are more valuable to the devs than the ones who are essentially just yes men.

People who tell you when you screwed up and won't back down about it are more valuable to the progress of something than the person who never points out your faults and always says you're doing a great job.

Provided the person who tells you you screwed up is right, of course. That's not a given.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

warden_de_dios · 02-13-2011 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

People who tell you when you screwed up and won't back down about it are more valuable to the progress of something than the person who never points out your faults and always says you're doing a great job.

"Won't back down" is that your code word for this gripe and whine fest you've been on for the past week?

UberGuy · 02-13-2011 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

On another note, regarding the OPs image...I'd probably find 100M and 88 shards more acceptable if it were a Favor of the Well. Who knows...this isn't set in stone yet...I think...

Yeah, when I saw those numbers, that's what I thought it was.

To be clear, my feeling is that the shard cost is sort of extreme for something you need four of, plus the shards to combine two of them into a Favor, plus all the other bits for the Common and Uncommon slots. And that's for one power.

I'm good at earning this stuff, and I think it's probably high. I posted about that in the thread that was locked in the Developers forum, here.

Only the shards, though. I don't sneeze at 100M inf, but I feel it's a decent number.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

passerby · 02-13-2011 01:58 AM

I resubscribed about 2 months ago to try out the content that has been released since GR. The main reason I'm staying subbed is because of the end game content. This is a returning customer who stays because of the team-based end-game content and the friends whom I run the TFs with.

MMOs need content to keep players playing with one another, forming social bonds to slow down the attrition rate that happens to any MMO. After returning, I asked the guys who have been playing consistently since years ago what has happened to those who have left and whether we can cajole them to return with all the new content that we can do together. Two of them have since reactivated their accounts. Social bonds are an important ingredient in keeping an MMO alive and so is content that requires teams or team-work. I made those friends while playing team-based content.

The die-hard soloers obviously see themselves as being mainstream and feel entitled to being catered to. But CoH, to stay alive, need to stick to their plan of developing team-based end-game content while allowing players who prefer to solo but run TFs occasionally to enjoy it as well. Those who adamantly solo, and solo only, for whatever reason, cannot be accommodated without higher development cost. The return on investment isn't going to be worth it. So CoH might be better off financially to let these die-hard soloers go than to incur the cost to retain them.

MrHassenpheffer · 02-13-2011 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bosstone

Okay. Expect that in i22, since resources need to be allocated to the project and i20 and i21 are already in the pipeline.

What? You want it ASAP? Well, in order to do that we need to minimize use of resources. We can do a cheapie workaround for you. Will that tide you over until we finish in-progress projects and can start working on this one?

IOW: Just how quickly do you think a very well done and challenging story arc can be completed?

Don't we already have well done and challenging story arcs in game?

Can our normal Peregrine/Grandville contacts reward incarnate based salvage for completing their arcs?

how hard would that be to implement/balance?

That would solve everything really.

like Golden Girl said, "It doesn't hurt to ask"

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

Mr. DJ · 02-13-2011 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

And I believe those people are more valuable to the devs than the ones who are essentially just yes men.

People who tell you when you screwed up and won't back down about it are more valuable to the progress of something than the person who never points out your faults and always says you're doing a great job.

That's quite different from what I'm talking about, it takes more than simple complaints and criticisms to get banned. We have had plenty of people with valid complaints about various things over the years that weren't being complete fools about it and didn't resort to personally insulting the Devs at every given chance.

Toony · 02-13-2011 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warden_de_dios

"Won't back down" is that your code word for this gripe and whine fest you've been on for the past week?

Yes, yes, I know. Anyone who has any complaints about the game is a whiner.

We went through this at

GDN

ED

NGE for PVP

AE

etc.

We get it. People who aren't dev buddies are bad people. Get over it.

Toony · 02-13-2011 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

That's quite different from what I'm talking about, it takes more than simple complaints and criticisms to get banned. We have had plenty of people with valid complaints about various things over the years that weren't being complete fools about it and didn't resort to personally insulting the Devs at every given chance.

I assume you talk about the hardcore pvpers who essentially got an NGE on their part of the game.

I can sympathize with them to a degree, as much as I hate PVP.

Toony · 02-13-2011 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by passerby

I resubscribed about 2 months ago to try out the content that has been released since GR. The main reason I'm staying subbed is because of the end game content. This is a returning customer who stays because of the team-based end-game content and the friends whom I run the TFs with.

MMOs need content to keep players playing with one another, forming social bonds to slow down the attrition rate that happens to any MMO. After returning, I asked the guys who have been playing consistently since years ago what has happened to those who have left and whether we can cajole them to return with all the new content that we can do together. Two of them have since reactivated their accounts. Social bonds are an important ingredient in keeping an MMO alive and so is content that requires teams or team-work. I made those friends while playing team-based content.

The die-hard soloers obviously see themselves as being mainstream and feel entitled to being catered to. But CoH, to stay alive, need to stick to their plan of developing team-based end-game content while allowing players who prefer to solo but run TFs occasionally to enjoy it as well. Those who adamantly solo, and solo only, for whatever reason, cannot be accommodated without higher development cost. The return on investment isn't going to be worth it. So CoH might be better off financially to let these die-hard soloers go than to incur the cost to retain them.

I don't see how lowering the cost from 88 shards (average 400 hours solo) to something reasonable is being catered to or puts huge financial pressure on the devs. Explain.

Mr. DJ · 02-13-2011 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

I assume you talk about the hardcore pvpers who essentially got an NGE on their part of the game.

I can sympathize with them to a degree, as much as I hate PVP.

Indeed I am and I sympathized as well with the ones who were rational about it till they ultimately left the game when the Devs wouldn't budge at all about the change, though they've added options to the arena iirc. I think I've maybe PvP'd twice since i13...and I used to frequent zones a lot before then and did the occasional arena events. The ones who acted like children on the other hand...they were a eye sore and really didn't help any.

warden_de_dios · 02-13-2011 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

Yes, yes, I know. Anyone who has any complaints about the game is a whiner.

We went through this at

GDN

ED

NGE for PVP

AE

etc.

We get it. People who aren't dev buddies are bad people. Get over it.

Are you saying the cost of crafting a notice is anything like GDN or ED? You are whining up a storm bigger then the people who flipped out over high level TOs being removed from the game.

Mr. DJ · 02-13-2011 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warden_de_dios

Are you saying the cost of crafting a notice is anything like GDN or ED? You are whining up a storm bigger then the people who flipped out over high level TOs being removed from the game.

*blink* people actually cared about high level TOs?

passerby · 02-13-2011 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toony

I don't see how lowering the cost from 88 shards (average 400 hours solo) to something reasonable is being catered to or puts huge financial pressure on the devs. Explain.

The associated development cost is more than just typing in a change in the code to lower the shard cost.
The devs will have to investigate the effect of a lower shard cost on the behavior of those who do team and work out the safeguards against the average TF-player buying these things at will. Or they have to put in the code to prevent those who get the Notices via WSF or Incarnate Trials from getting them this way too, and it won't be as easy as some might think, as Arcanaville explained.

And the harder effect to quantify is the kind of playerbase makeup and revenue that will result from making the end game more solo-friendly. Would it nudge the game towards being too much of a solo game? If so, what kind of playerbase would the game have? Making these changes have a long term effect. And all these investigations and designing solutions cost developer time. They have to be certain that it will all be worth it to retain the die-hard soloers.

Kyriani · 02-13-2011 02:56 AM

I have a feeling that with the amount of shards needed we may eventually (as in not right now or soon but in the not too distant future) see an increase in the shard drop rate from lvl 50+ mobs.

I also have a feeling the costs we see are what will go live. I'd expect a drop rate increase before cost decrease.

Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30

MrHassenpheffer · 02-13-2011 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyriani

I have a feeling that with the amount of shards needed we may eventually (as in not right now or soon but in the not too distant future) see an increase in the shard drop rate from lvl 50+ mobs.

I also have a feeling the costs we see are what will go live. I'd expect a drop rate increase before cost decrease.

I can see that happening.

I'm also appreciative for an alternate route to incarnates will be given, especially on such short notice.

Even if it's not what I thought it would be, its still very nice to have.

Thank you devs.

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

warden_de_dios · 02-13-2011 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

*blink* people actually cared about high level TOs?

Well that groups real fear was about a market being added to the game. Those people didn't want to participate in that system and at the time they made their cash selling SOs at the proper store and TOs at the Hero Corps offices. High level TO's went bye bye when Inventions came around and all those people left the game claiming that the Devs removing high level TOs has robbing them of future Influence earnings and forcing them to use inventions.

On proofread it sounds like I'm talking about a lot of people, it was like 4 or 5 really really vocal people.

rpgguy · 02-13-2011 05:12 AM

Lets see, i have about 120million influence accross all my characters.

I'll take the weekly strike or task force, 2 hours of work and ill save 100mil influence,

bAss_ackwards · 02-13-2011 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpgguy

Lets see, i have about 120million influence accross all my characters.

I'll take the weekly strike or task force, 2 hours of work and ill save 100mil influence,

Sounds like a solid plan to me.

Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

Golden Girl · 02-13-2011 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpgguy

Lets see, i have about 120million influence accross all my characters.

I'll take the weekly strike or task force, 2 hours of work and ill save 100mil influence,

But can you spare an hour every week from your relentlessly busy schedule to do one?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Techbot Alpha · 02-13-2011 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vox Populi

My point is, "challenging" and "solo" don't really mix.

If it's a tough challenge, most players are going to need a team, which brings us back to the same "forced teaming" discussion. And the Incarnate content should be a tough challenge.

Incarnate-worthy solo content is easier said than done.

Bull.

The Ramiel RWZ mission. Hell, the Ramiel arc.

You bet you can solo that. There is NOTHING gating you and saying "You have to Team to do this."
Is it hard? For some ATs, yes! Is it a challenge over all? Pretty much.

So why go from something that works to forced (I don't buy 'encouraging' when the alternative is a Korean-esque grindfest) teaming? Thats just moronic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Techbot Alpha · 02-13-2011 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bosstone

Okay. Expect that in i22, since resources need to be allocated to the project and i20 and i21 are already in the pipeline.

What? You want it ASAP? Well, in order to do that we need to minimize use of resources. We can do a cheapie workaround for you. Will that tide you over until we finish in-progress projects and can start working on this one?

IOW: Just how quickly do you think a very well done and challenging story arc can be completed?

Given the tools available?
About two to three days.

I started work on re-vamping the lowbie arcs using the AE a while back (curtailed due to RL) and all it took for me to revamp an entire 'arc' (i.e. take the crap that was there and hammer out an actual plot and some better mechanics) was an evening and a day.

And thats using the AE, which is basically the Dev tools gutted of all the new features and better shinies they have access to. Unless they were kidding about how similar the two systems were.

So, no, I honestly don't think it takes that long at all. Tops, I'd say it'd take one guy a maximum of 1, maybe 1&1/2 weeks. If that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.