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It's fairly clear that you responded to the discussion of what farmers do without knowing WHY it came up.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
More than comments about "what farmers do" that have no bearing on reality, I'd say.
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If you need me to tell you, it's because the farmers' method of maximizing rewards exposes the apparently backwards nature of rewards in terms of drops.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I'm commenting on the fact that you made an inaccurate statement, nothing more. It certainly exposed something, though.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
It's fairly clear that you responded to the discussion of what farmers do without knowing WHY it came up.
If you need me to tell you, it's because the farmers' method of maximizing rewards exposes the apparently backwards nature of rewards in terms of drops. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Risk = Reward - Time * Subscription divided by a monkeys butt squared.
I think that was one of Einstein's first equations!
Seriously though. This game to me 'use' to be like this. You could obtain anything if you put enough time in it. People who took more risk, such as TF's, would tremendously reduce their time to achieve said reward. So the more risk the less time. That's what you get for taking more risk.
I said 'use' to be like this, but since there's mandatory weekly TF's, the game has departed from its core values trying to copy other MMORPG's.
Mob levels... Well it's been said. The classes are too unbalanced to make it fair.
I also don't know any farmers who farm at -1 instead of +0.
Maybe there are some, but they must be using terribly poor farming characters, and/or are farming AE so the level of the enemy has no bearing on the ticket roll reward levels... but still must be using terribly poor characters, since in AE you directly do get more tickets for fighting +cons.
Or else they're just misinformed, like very many people are about this game.
As far as risk vs reward, I agree there's something wrong there, but not in the sense of reward vs level scaling for individual enemies. I think it's much more of a problem that difficulty is rewarded less than length in many cases. I think the "merit reward formula" for trials and taskforces should have a factor in it not just for how long a given TF takes on average, but also for how many teams disband without completing it. It should be explicitly taken into consideration as a quantifiable measure of difficulty when people can't complete the TF at all.
In terms of individual creatures? There's no way this wouldn't force a rebalancing of classes or further entrench melee ATs as the 'golden children' of the City. In a sense, the rebalancing would be welcome - but I seriously doubt it would be very welcome to most who are currently playing scrappers, brutes, or tankers (and probably VEATs).
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Statesman said that was his goal back in the day. Although given what we know now, Positron might have just been humoring Jack when Jack asked how the system worked! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its a common misconception that this game *ever* followed anything remotely like a static Risk=Reward equation. It never has, to my knowledge, because reward systems aren't designed that way.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Jack tended to oversimplify a lot. Jack once said that increasing the Scrapper damage modifier and increasing the Blaster damage cap were both "increasing the damage of the archetypes." That's not an out of context quote: when asked why the scrapper modifier was increased, you may remember me calling him out specifically on the public forums for saying that increasing the blaster damage cap was basically the same thing.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Statesman said that was his goal back in the day. Although given what we know now, Positron might have just been humoring Jack when Jack asked how the system worked!
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Then there's the Prima numbers.
Honestly, though, Jack never to my knowledge said that reward was always proportional to risk, and for that matter never really defined risk. He was speaking generally, not specifically, as he was doing 80% of the time. Moreover, he specifically never said that a player that goes out of their way to experience more risk was entitled to more reward. The devs always have the discretion to decide what actions to reward, regardless of risk, and Jack never contradicted that. In fact, he reinforced that thought (albeit ambiguously at times) on more than one occasion.
The simplest way to describe CoH risk/reward is that if you want more reward they have to give you more risk, but if you yourself take on more risk they don't have to give you more reward in exchange. That's more or less consistent with what Jack said back then, if you spoke Jack.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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By some qualifications, I am a "farmer". I don't run the same mission over and over, but I do pump up my difficulty specifically so I get more drops from running missions. |
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I also don't know any farmers who farm at -1 instead of +0.
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I would never go to -1 when my goal is to get drops. The difference between level 49 recipes and level 50 recipes is just too much to sacrifice. (Actually, at level 49, I have generally (since the option has been available) pushed my difficultly up to +1 just so I could start getting those level 50 drops that much sooner.)
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I also don't know any farmers who farm at -1 instead of +0.
Maybe there are some, but they must be using terribly poor farming characters, and/or are farming AE so the level of the enemy has no bearing on the ticket roll reward levels... but still must be using terribly poor characters, since in AE you directly do get more tickets for fighting +cons. Or else they're just misinformed, like very many people are about this game. |
There are times when I do go -1 (all solo):
When I use a second/new build that's lacking good enhancement slotting
When I'm trying to push through 'need-to' content as quickly as possible
When I'm testing to see if I'm ready to move up to higher mob numbers
Meat-Grinding for Purples.
I push +0 on most when the toon can handle it... but I don't see the point of pushing beyond that (at 50) when soloing; considering its the ( /x_) that'll push up the drop rate.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
It's probably a coincidence that these sort of threads (there have been several) are popping up now that the actual risk to many characters at higher difficulties is nothing more than it would be at lower difficulties.
Definitely not just disguised "gimme gimme" threads under a bonnet of intellectual discourse.
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If I'm farming for purples I farm ONLY for purples and I ALSO often go -1. It doesn't matter if I'm -1, +0, or +1, the number of TEMP recpies drop so often now that I find it's pointless to even care about other rares or drops when I'm farming for purples.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
There are times when I do go -1 (all solo):
When I use a second/new build that's lacking good enhancement slotting When I'm trying to push through 'need-to' content as quickly as possible When I'm testing to see if I'm ready to move up to higher mob numbers Meat-Grinding for Purples. I push +0 on most when the toon can handle it... but I don't see the point of pushing beyond that (at 50) when soloing; considering its the ( /x_) that'll push up the drop rate. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. |
Without fail just about every run I get a purple on, 90% of the rest of my recipes are a mix of commons you can buy at a university table + insane amounts of temp recipes. So again pointless if I go -1, +0 or +1. If I want to more consistently get non purple rares via farming I go AE, collect some tickets and ROLL for them in the appropriate ranges.
EDIT: And just in case it wasn't clear the number of temp recipes that now drop NO MATTER what activity you are doing (tfs, farming, tips, radios, etc) are FREAKING INSANE. If there was an auto delete temp recipies button in options I would have clicked it long ago.
Back to your regularly scheduled discussion about risk v. reward (rofl).
/rant off.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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"these sorts of threads" have been popping up as long as these forums have been operations.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
It's probably a coincidence that these sort of threads (there have been several) are popping up now that the actual risk to many characters at higher difficulties is nothing more than it would be at lower difficulties.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
THIS.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
"these sorts of threads" have been popping up as long as these forums have been operations.
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Let's not pretend this is new just cause of the level shift. It's not.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Judging by some of the responses, no, my statement wasn't inaccurate.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm commenting on the fact that you made an inaccurate statement, nothing more. It certainly exposed something, though.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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lol, I do get tons of temps (I do like Recovery Serum); what gets me about those is that you'll get multiples of a temp but they'll have different salvage requirements???
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
If I'm farming for purples I farm ONLY for purples and I ALSO often go -1. It doesn't matter if I'm -1, +0, or +1, the number of TEMP recpies drop so often now that I find it's pointless to even care about other rares or drops when I'm farming for purples.
Without fail just about every run I get a purple on, 90% of the rest of my recipes are a mix of commons you can buy at a university table + insane amounts of temp recipes. So again pointless if I go -1, +0 or +1. If I want to more consistently get non purple rares via farming I go AE, collect some tickets and ROLL for them in the appropriate ranges. EDIT: And just in case it wasn't clear the number of temp recipes that now drop NO MATTER what activity you are doing (tfs, farming, tips, radios, etc) are FREAKING INSANE. If there was an auto delete temp recipies button in options I would have clicked it long ago. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion about risk v. reward (rofl). /rant off. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
And these weekly TFs are mandatory exactly how again? |
Originally Posted by Ramification TM
I said 'use' to be like this, but since there's mandatory weekly TF's, the game has departed from its core values trying to copy other MMORPG's.
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I'll be running a Kahn or two this week, because I happen to like that TF.
Next week, however, I'll be skipping the WTF, because I don't really like Lady Gray.
If these Task Forces were mandatory, like you're saying here, I wouldn't be allowed to skip one. But that is exactly what I intend to do.
The whole thing is optional, always was, and more than likely always will be. The only thing that makes anything "mandatory" is your own perspective that says it is. That's the point I've been trying to make in ALL my posts on the subject lately: The ONLY person forcing you to do anything is YOU.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Right, which is why I've pretty much been playing other games while waiting for the animal pack and issue 20. I no longer care about Alpha and am patiently waiting for Judgement really. If the Incarnate Trials are fun I'll jump back in, if not, so be it my 50s (that I want to be incarnate) don't get to level shift for a bit.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And these weekly TFs are mandatory exactly how again?
I'll be running a Kahn or two this week, because I happen to like that TF. Next week, however, I'll be skipping the WTF, because I don't really like Lady Gray. If these Task Forces were mandatory, like you're saying here, I wouldn't be allowed to skip one. But that is exactly what I intend to do. The whole thing is optional, always was, and more than likely always will be. The only thing that makes anything "mandatory" is your own perspective that says it is. That's the point I've been trying to make in ALL my posts on the subject lately: The ONLY person forcing you to do anything is YOU. |
Big deal.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
None of those things are what I'd call farming, except the last one (meat-grinding for purples). But you'd be financially better off doing that at +0 as long as the character can sustain it, since your incidental drops of uncommon and rare set IO recipes would sell for more then.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
There are times when I do go -1 (all solo):
When I use a second/new build that's lacking good enhancement slotting When I'm trying to push through 'need-to' content as quickly as possible When I'm testing to see if I'm ready to move up to higher mob numbers Meat-Grinding for Purples. I push +0 on most when the toon can handle it... but I don't see the point of pushing beyond that (at 50) when soloing; considering its the ( /x_) that'll push up the drop rate. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. |
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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This is probably what it comes down to. We can increase enemies levels to challenge ourselves personally, but the devs are going to keep on assuming we're fighting level 50s.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Soloing Lusca, even if you can, probably offers an incredibly low reward rate even if the reward itself is actually kinda large. And that rate is low because the devs don't care if you can solo Lusca.
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Yep. And as long as one realizes that is the case, where's the harm? If you play for shinies, drop the level, and if you play for the challenge, increase the level.
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
This is probably what it comes down to. We can increase enemies levels to challenge ourselves personally, but the devs are going to keep on assuming we're fighting level 50s.
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Mandatory in the fact if you ever want to advance/level shift your character. Basically locked out of content if you DON'T do the TF's.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And these weekly TFs are mandatory exactly how again?
I'll be running a Kahn or two this week, because I happen to like that TF. Next week, however, I'll be skipping the WTF, because I don't really like Lady Gray. If these Task Forces were mandatory, like you're saying here, I wouldn't be allowed to skip one. But that is exactly what I intend to do. The whole thing is optional, always was, and more than likely always will be. The only thing that makes anything "mandatory" is your own perspective that says it is. That's the point I've been trying to make in ALL my posts on the subject lately: The ONLY person forcing you to do anything is YOU. |
Every player should have the right to advance their character. If you can't advance without doing the TF then the crap is mandatory.
What is so hard about that concept?
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That concept is not the situation, however. So again, it's only "mandatory" if you absolutely, positively, for personal reasons alone (since there's no content that requires or even suggests the top 2 Alpha slots yet) want the Rare and Very Rare boosts. Apex and Tin Mage are currently the only content that suggest (strongly) that you have *any* Incarnate boosts, and even then it's just the Common.|
Originally Posted by Ramification TM
Mandatory in the fact if you ever want to advance/level shift your character. Basically locked out of content if you DON'T do the TF's.
Every player should have the right to advance their character. If you can't advance without doing the TF then the crap is mandatory. What is so hard about that concept? |
Come Issue 20, they've promised other ways to get Notices, and (I'm guessing on this part) new content that will, like Apex and Tin Mage before it, strongly suggest having the higher level Incarnate boosts. But right now? There's no real reason to get them, other than wanting to.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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There's not really a harm, but it would be nice if the two choices could be combined.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
Yep. And as long as one realizes that is the case, where's the harm? If you play for shinies, drop the level, and if you play for the challenge, increase the level.
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Judging by "some responses" is a fantastic way to justify any wild fantasy you dream up because "some people" believe all kinds of nutty stuff.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Judging by some of the responses, no, my statement wasn't inaccurate.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Positron
Time:Reward and Risk:Reward are both things that are examined when dealing with an MMO. It's not all Risk:Reward, since there are a wide variety of character types, some of which mitigate risk far better than others.
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I just want to know why on earth does the RSF give some many few merits when it clearly should be at LEAST 37 merits to mirror the STF.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone