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then up the difficulty silly |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Fair enough, but we also kill those -1s faster for virtually the same rewards as we get if they were 54. You can't say that the amount of extra inf you get is worth it, because there's nothing in the game that costs so much that the inf from fighting 50s isn't enough to afford it.
The only thing to use inf for at the end game level is the market, and you can't include the market in your assessment without also realizing that the drops from defeating enemies are the major incentive to defeat them at 50. |
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Merits are assigned to task forces by datamining the average time to complete them. The less time it takes the average team to complete the task force, the less merits it gives, the more time it takes the average team to complete, the more merits it gives, based on a formula. There is no specific reason for the RSF to "mirror" the STF if it can be completed much faster (or much slower).
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Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
I just want to know why on earth does the RSF give some many few merits when it clearly should be at LEAST 37 merits to mirror the STF.
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Still doesn't make it mandatory. |
Originally Posted by Ramification TM
Mandatory in the fact if you ever want to advance/level shift your character. Basically locked out of content if you DON'T do the TF's.
Every player should have the right to advance their character. If you can't advance without doing the TF then the crap is mandatory. What is so hard about that concept? |
If I don't want to do it, I don't have to. They aren't going to cancel my subscription or delete my characters if I don't do it. I'm not going to get banned for refusal to participate. The devs are not going to send someone to my house to put a gun to my head and force me to run them.
There are exactly TWO task forces currently in existence that require the Alpha slot in ANY form, and guess what? They aren't mandatory either.
You make it sound like I'm not even allowed to play the game unless I do these task forces, which isn't even close to true.
And you know what? Advancing your character isn't mandatory either. If I am happy with my level 50 the way they are, there is nothing anywhere that says I MUST take them any farther than that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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What about Apex? :P *hides*
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Merits are assigned to task forces by datamining the average time to complete them. The less time it takes the average team to complete the task force, the less merits it gives, the more time it takes the average team to complete, the more merits it gives, based on a formula. There is no specific reason for the RSF to "mirror" the STF if it can be completed much faster (or much slower).
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From where I'm standing, the reason level doesn't matter for Shard drops is pretty simple: So as to avoid "encouraging" players to fight deep purples. Once upon a time, people could fight +10 enemies (prior to the purple patch) and those +10 enemies gave significantly better rewards than even con enemies. Because players COULD, players did, and earned greater rewards, to the point where fighting things your level was considered a waste of time and the mark of a loser.
Designing around a base level of difficulty, where dropping below that difficulty grants worse rewards but going above it does not grant better rewards is a pretty clever way to encourage people to stick at that difficulty, but still gives them the ability to increase their difficulty if they really want to.
What this setup AVOIDS, however, is making people feel like they HAVE to raise their difficulty.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would love to see improved drop rates for up level enemies. I do not necessarily believe the improved rates need to be directly proportional to the increased "difficulty". Even a small bonus would be a nice add, IMO. |
Originally Posted by Positron
Time:Reward and Risk:Reward are both things that are examined when dealing with an MMO. It's not all Risk:Reward, since there are a wide variety of character types, some of which mitigate risk far better than others.
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If a problem with this concept lies in solo farming differences, only enable the bonus on teams (since drop rates already currently encourage soloing, this might help balance out that discrepancy).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That would be covered in the following paragraph.|
Originally Posted by Antoinette
What about Apex? :P *hides*
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Risk actually matters almost not at all to how much rewards we get, or ever got. Risk is not a "factor" in rewards. What it is, is a threshold. To earn X xp/hour and Y xp/hour, you must tolerate some Risk R. If the encounter offers less than R, it cannot be allowed to grant X and Y, except by special dispensation. What happens if the encounter offers *more* than R risk? The devs can decide to offer more rewards or not. It depends on whether they feel they can do so reasonably, and if the encounter is a reasonable one to reward. Attacking Lusca solo exposes the player to a lot more risk than normal, but the devs have no requirement to reward that extra risk with sizable increases in reward rate. Soloing Lusca, even if you can, probably offers an incredibly low reward rate even if the reward itself is actually kinda large. And that rate is low because the devs don't care if you can solo Lusca.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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While they are at it, there are way too many mobs that give no xp yet can give debt. Fix it. COP gives no drops, not even inspirations...fix it.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Then why do I get the best rewards on my 50 by steamrolling TFs full of -1s with little-to-no risk?
tl;dr: Enemies over 50 should drop more stuff the more levels they are over 50. |
Maybe toons with mez protection should get less inf/xp. they have less risk.
Exactly who is going to farm death shamans at this point in the game? return xp to their summoned minions. etc etc. There is a long list of things the devs nerfed xp to in order to stop farming.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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when? I havent done that one in a few months...another hidden nerf.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
And to make things even worse, devs changed 2nd mission to require escorting Amy to the exit
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is it worth more than 7 merits or did they "forget" that part of the change?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Because that's not what the word mandatory means. You have a choice. If you want a certain reward, then you engage in the activity that offers that reward.|
Originally Posted by Ramification TM
Mandatory in the fact if you ever want to advance/level shift your character. Basically locked out of content if you DON'T do the TF's.
Every player should have the right to advance their character. If you can't advance without doing the TF then the crap is mandatory. What is so hard about that concept? |
It's not necessary to say that the WST is mandatory to argue against it BTW. If you believe that there should be a solo or other option for earning the Notice of the Well, it does nothing to enhance your argument to say that the WST is mandatory. It isn't.
There are ample good reasons to offer alternatives to the WST for the Notice. What you state isn't one of them.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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IIRC, since i18. I don't think merits were changed (but I could be mistaken).
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
when? I havent done that one in a few months...another hidden nerf.
is it worth more than 7 merits or did they "forget" that part of the change? |
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Only worth 9 lousy merits. The first mission is worth a buttload of exp for a good team though.
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
when? I havent done that one in a few months...another hidden nerf.
is it worth more than 7 merits or did they "forget" that part of the change? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If you want to say "dabblers like to clear maps at -1", great.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Maybe in the general case, but "people farm at -1" isn't some wild fantasy.
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Farmers aren't dabblers, they're fiends for efficiency.
Running a map at -1 is inefficient and wasteful. The only efficiency argument in favor of doing it that way is not being able to consistently survive +0, and any even marginally competent farming character should be able to handle that with no problem.
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That's just back to semantics.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
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I would propose that 'farming' probably isn't the best term to use for this tactic from a true farmer's point of view.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
If you want to say "dabblers like to clear maps at -1", great.
Farmers aren't dabblers, they're fiends for efficiency. Running a map at -1 is inefficient and wasteful. The only efficiency argument in favor of doing it that way is not being able to consistently survive +0, and any even marginally competent farming character should be able to handle that with no problem. |
However, I do see people using this to balance out/maximize the +A/xB equation to get the increase in their drop rate from normal play.
People who maximize their grinding while not actually farming?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Here's another one for you:|
Originally Posted by Vanden
That's just back to semantics.
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Looking at the markets, and what moves and doesn't, I'd say the most desirable drops are NOT dropped from lvl 50s, outside of Purples. Those are the only ones that are available on most of the best enhancements.
And if those are so desirable, why are so many people parking their characters at certain levels just to generate lower level loot?
I say risk balances out with reward in the long run. If you fight something that's easy for your character to fight, the risk (and the effort) is low. If you fight something tougher, the reward seems less because the effort is greater. But you can't label something hard because it probably isn't hard to someone else. How are you gonna decide what to give a bigger reward to? Fighting +1 Council is still easier than fighting -1 Malta. What level it is shouldn't be a determining factor at all. I've got certain characters that mow through Knives of Artemis like they aren't there, and others that have to be real careful. How do you determine risk when there's such a range of experiences from the same player?
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
I would use the same XP/Inf mods that said enemies have to improve the drop rate. Enemy gives 20% more XP? Enemy drops things 20% more often.
But better drops for mobs that are just stronger kinds of mobs isn't the topic of this thread. The idea is that mobs that are higher-level should drop more things. You can't deny that a +1 is tougher than a +0 or -1.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I'm not specifically saying the devs have thought this particular situation through, or have necessarily done this in this case, but there are sometimes very good reasons for decoupling the earning rates of different rewards.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I would use the same XP/Inf mods that said enemies have to improve the drop rate. Enemy gives 20% more XP? Enemy drops things 20% more often.
But better drops for mobs that are just stronger kinds of mobs isn't the topic of this thread. The idea is that mobs that are higher-level should drop more things. You can't deny that a +1 is tougher than a +0 or -1. |
Consider XP and Inf. XP and Inf are not linked. They could be. But in at least one significant aspect they are not. If you die, debt ultimately means your XP earning rate drops in half for a time. Inf is unaffected: you continue to earn inf at the same rate as before. Interestingly, this means a player that dies more often than one that does not actually has *more influence* at a particular level than one that doesn't die, all other things being equal. And this means that player is in a position to buy better gear, and be in a better position overall than the player that blitzes through everything. That might actually be desirable. That negative feedback is a form of "friction" that adds an additional element of difficulty to the fast player, while not double-penalizing the slower player for dying.
In practice, this effect has been swamped by various other reward rebalancing in the game and especially the invention system in I9. But I mention it to illustrate the theory. Sometimes you want some rewards to be awarded on the basis of difficulty and others based more on activity and have them counterbalance each other to prevent wild imbalances in the game. You want some element of meritocracy in the game, but you often have to dampen it because the absolute difference in ability between the best player and the worst one is far higher than the absolute difference in either power or reward earning ability you want to represent in the game.
If the game has too much positive feedback, you get a situation where the best players earn the best rewards giving them the ability get even better, and you amplify small differences in players and your own game balance into huge disparities. Some negative feedback is a good thing here. Or in this case, zero feedback.
Should higher level critters drop at a higher percentage? Well, it depends. Do we want all drops to be based that way? Even insps? SOs? Costume recipes? Is the purpose of purple recipes to be a lucky lottery win for the player, such that its ok if some players have a better chance, but we don't actually want the skew to be too high, or is it essentially just another form of payment for executing content, like Inf? Those are fundamental questions about the reward system that don't have just one right answer. In-game rewards are not just about judging difficulty and rewarding combat merit. That's not the only kind of carrot in an MMO.
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Quote:
In absolute terms, a level 20 enemy and level 30 enemy are 10 levels apart. Relative to a level 25 character, that is highly significant. For a level 50 attacking them, they are relatively equal, given how much power a 50 has in comparison to either. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
You can't deny that a +1 is tougher than a +0 or -1.
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In this game, toons have begun to gain so much power, that there isn't much relative distinction between -1 and +1, particularly for minions and LTs, despite the absolute +2 difference.
So, yes, in relative terms, I can deny there is a difference, even if in absolute terms I cannot.
This relative difference is a big reason we are seeing so many threads like this one. Players know exactly what they can handle, and they know they can handle higher than even cons with little or no more risk than they can even cons. At that point, the discussion of reward vs risk is rather academic, considering the relative risks are at or nearly equal.
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This x1000000|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Fair enough, but we also kill those -1s faster for virtually the same rewards as we get if they were 54. You can't say that the amount of extra inf you get is worth it, because there's nothing in the game that costs so much that the inf from fighting 50s isn't enough to afford it.
The only thing to use inf for at the end game level is the market, and you can't include the market in your assessment without also realizing that the drops from defeating enemies are the major incentive to defeat them at 50. |
Its the main reason why I hate the Apex/Tin man TFs. Fighting 54s is pointless, all it does is draw out the fight longer due to the purple patch. I can some what deal with it on AVs like Recluese and GW because those are supposed to be epic fights but when its every single npc it becomes an exercise of frustration. I dont know whether the devs realize it or not but due to the way the purple patch works it creates a huge inequity on powers. Such that it you see more teams built around getting around this.
For instance if tohit debuffs barely work against +4s you will see more teams built around defense buffs instead. Same thing with -resistance, you just get around it by using +damage. The last thing we need is a repeat of LRSF needing to have specialist teams just to make the newer content easier. Players will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance. That in itself is why that whole + level npc thing is a really bad idea that just needs to just die.
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Which is why, as the path of least resistance effectively goes up, the more players will want more rewards for doing what is essentially the same thing they do before. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Players will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance.
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If the player level shifts so that white becomes blue, they crank the difficulty up one notch, turning it back to white, and expect the rewards to be compensated based on the 'new' difficulty.
As a side note, since it seems like nobody here is a real farmer, I farm daily with a recharge built ele/shield. For money, to PL my toons, but mostly because i just love killing everything.
Lol at blue/white/yellow
+2 x8
AE or missions. Or else us farmers get bored really quickly. What makes us efficient is not getting bored and giving up, as that's the only thing that really ever limits us.
Sometimes +4 x8 just for some fun and a challenge.
-1 is idiotic, 49 recipes aren't nearly as good. Only going for purples won't make you as much either. And farming isn't fun at 0 or +1. Not to mention +2 x8 is the best for leveling a character as well, and you can easily make money at the same time as leveling a character, so why not?
I'd agree with what's been said, that right now nobody feels like they need to jack up their difficulty or else they're missing out, and that's pretty nice. We're fine as it is, and this thread isn't going to change anything anyway.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Remember, kids: if you don't farm my way, you're not a real farmer.
Well there's a difference between someone who finds a cool AE mission and uses their fire/shield to kill stuff, and the actual community of farmers who race, compare stats and builds. Also, you aren't really a farmer unless you have several farmers (some of us had over 10, although i stripped a lot for purples), alt accounts and emps to buff yourself. Some people take it more seriously then others, and is the only reason they still play.
Unfortunately all the best farmers i've come to know have quit, which is really too bad, they had some unbeatable times on those farm missions. But yea, if you're doing it inefficiently, you aren't really a farmer. You're more of a PvEr who wants to farm a bit.
Correct farming is an art you can't just stumble across. I thought i was farming 2 years ago with a fire/ss tank, and now tanks can't even preform -real- farming because the lack of damage.
Unless you guys want to just talk about the farming anyone can do, you know, SS/fire brutes with SOs "farming". Then i can't really add anything, and i misunderstood.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.