Mover over ___, VEATS are the best ATs in the game.
By
Barbie_Ink,
Posted on: 2011-02-04 21:09 in Soldiers of Arachnos
I agree that villains definitely got the better end of the EATs. VEATs are miles ahead of Khelds. However I don't know if I would say they are the best archetype. I'm not ready to compare them to controllers or dominators in terms control though. VEATs do not have the AoE control that all the controller archetypes have, AoE fear, sleep fields, confuse, and stuns are what separates those archetypes from VEAT control abilities.
I have to admit I do looove my Fort and Bane, but saying that they are far and away better than Khelds? Well that's half true. Peacebringers definitely get the short straw, and those who say otherwise are delusional.
A warshade though? One that is well built and well played? Right there with the very best builds in the game. You are welcome to apply preference, but if you don't think Warshades match up with the best of the best then you clearly haven't seen a well played shade.
Best?.....maybe
Most versatile? Definitely.
I can successfully fill the roll of a soft controll troller/dom in minor situations....
I can actively dish out as much damage as a corruptor(defintiely not as much as a blaster.)
I have WAY above softcap defenses, and softcap my entire team's defenses.
Can't be held, stunned, knockbacked, etc.
Recently got up to 30% smashing/lethal resist which helps. I have 72% Psionic resistance so psi enemies can't even poke me.
There's been a few situations where I'll rush in ahead of the tank, hold the entire mob/AoE bomb them or confuse an entire mob(contagious confusion FTW)
I don't know about best....but none of my other 50's compare in how adaptive my Widow is.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
Pound for pound, I definitely feel VEATs are the top AT. My crab's at high defenses, 50-55 S/L/F/C RES, 2100+ hp, massive mez protect, +180% recharge, strong AoE chain, 3 awesome pet powers, lots of -RES, and also supports the team through 5 leadership toggles. I just don't think anything else will top that for my playstyle.
Once I started playing my VEAT and realized its potential, it kinda just ruined every other AT for me. In regards to WS, I've teamed with some of the "top MF'in" Warshades out there and just wasn't very impressed. Watching them faceplant is a bit disappointing after hearing all the hype.
I think everyone who plays a VEAT will agree with the OP, but everyone else may not agree. VEATs don't provide flashy graphical buffs/debuffs so their awesomeness will go unnoticed. Also, epic ATs alone will drive some people away because they seem confusing to build. Considering red side is less popular than blue, red epics would be even less popular. Honestly though, I don't mind because the less attention we get the less of a chance for nerf.
In summary, VEATs = best.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
You are not alone. I love VEATS the most and I think they are the most powerful AT because 1. as long as you take leaderships, you can't really go "wrong" with them. 2. they benefit teams passively as long as you stand somewhat close.
I made a human PB up to 32 and she feels very gimpy. lol
Fortunata is the first one that got tier 3 alpha. My Bane is going to be second.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I wouldn't say they are the best, but probably the most well rounded. They are great at laying things to waste out of the box due to the ease at which they can cap defenses, their awesome status toggle and the monstous attack chains they can muster. But there's a lot of things my brutes/scrappers can do better, and unlike trollers and doms my widow will probably never be able to solo a LRSF (<--- that's an extreme example of course, but it's one reason why folks think these two are such powerful ATs).
Weakness to defense and recovery debuffs, no self heal, low hit points (my widow's at 1602 w/ accolades, or about what a stalker caps at), and an unreliable sliding resist mechanic is what keeps them from getting the "epic box" checked in my book. But yeah, very well rounded out of the box.
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I'll agree when you show me a VEAT who can solo the Master of LRSF or solo Lusca. Until then, have fun playing in the minor leagues.
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Originally Posted by Commando
I read the controller boards and the Dominator boards. I read in plenty of places "Controllers or Doms" are the best AT in the game. Look, in this VEAT crowd, I think I can safely say, a well built VEAT (and especially a fortunata) is IMO powergaming in a big way.
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Confusing AVs isn't my idea of accomplishing a fantastic feat. Just spam with a non-aggro power at long range with permadom? C'mon, really? It's just a big trick, and you know it.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
I'll agree when you show me a VEAT who can solo the Master of LRSF or solo Lusca. Until then, have fun playing in the minor leagues.
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Once again, I'm stating that pound-for-pound (overall), VEATs are at the top of the list for me. They're not top DPS, not top debuffer, not top buffer, not top in tanking, but they can do it all, and do it very well. It's definitely not a one trick pony, like a lot of the other FotM stuff out there.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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I'll be really impressed if a non-Mind dominator solos LRSF. I know perma Mind dom has tricks that can confuse and sleep tough AVs but other than Mind doms, other controls will have a hard time soloing 8 heroes without other "tricks".|
Originally Posted by Silverado
I'll agree when you show me a VEAT who can solo the Master of LRSF or solo Lusca. Until then, have fun playing in the minor leagues.
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And to be honest, I think those "soloing LRSF" are more like "tricks" than how "awesome" the whole AT is. I've seen Defender soloing ITF with the help of buffing NPC.
I think the "awesomeness" we are talking about in VEAT forum is how all 4 branches are highly effective even without set bonuses (you can't get perma dom without set bonuses). All 4 branches start out great at lvl 24 and they have high defense, mez protection and great team buffs. It's really hard to play a bad VEAT (except the ones that skip leaderships).
I play a lot of Dominators (except Mind control
) and while they are very fun, they still have highs/lows and situations where controls don't help much. I probably won't call VEAT the "best" because it depends which situation you are talking about but in general VEAT is very versatile and each branch is ABOVE AVERAGE kind of good. This is the kind of "awesomeness" I am talking about. Soloing a TF with tricks that other ATs don't have isn't what I call "awesome". It is impressive, though, that some people would spend a long time trying to solo a TF that is meant for team-play.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I have never tried lusca on my huntsman...
I will have to give that a shot.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Well not really. More "Attack like a Corrupter without Scourge, hold like a Blaster". I'll give you the defense thing though.| Attack like a blaster, hold like a controller, defense which makes some melee toons cry... This is EPIC. Kheldians, I am so sorry, but somebody had to be the test rats for Epic toons. We thank you for that, and the Deity of CoH gave us VEATS. |
Forts control is nice, but given the fact they don't have the sort of relatively quick to recharge AOE control that Controllers and Domis get in one shape or another coupled with the relatively low durations compared to Controllers and Domis they don't match up, from a pure Control point of view.
The fact they can do some control, have excellent defenses and attack pretty well, all combined, does indeed make them awesome though.
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Exactly. Dominator needs control first and then kill. Controller to some degree is similar but Fortunata doesn't rely on controls to "survive". Dominate is a mag 3 control but with higher base damage. Dominate itself is an attack plus decent control. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
The fact they can do some control, have excellent defenses and attack pretty well, all combined, does indeed make them awesome though. |
That's the philosophy behind how I build my Fortunata because without Domination, you can never perma hold an AV anyway so having more +hold duration doesn't make it any better. And if it's just a regular boss, I can stack mag 6 with ease and even if I can't hold the boss, it's not like the boss can kill me. That's the beauty of this "Tank-troller" Fort.
This is another reason I haven't really built a control-heavy Fortunta who takes all the control powers. I mostly skip Confuse, aoe hold and mag 4 stun. My first two builds did have mag 4 stun. It is very handy when you fight against two bosses. Stun one and attack another. After I got alpha and Tough, I feel like I don't use Scramble Thought much because it is too slow and I don't really need to rely on a mag 4 stun because most bosses can't kill me anyway.
VEAT buffs is most apparently when you team with lowbies. I've been working on a new Martial Arts Stalker and I've been teaming with my friend's alpha Fortunata when he does tip missions. His buffs make me so much more useful because he is doing +2 (which is +3 to me) and it's kinda hard for me to handle +3 at lvl 27. I don't have accuracy issue at all due to his Tactic buffs and my critical damage is awesome with his 30% damage buff and my survival is much better too with his Mind Link and double Maneuver.
The problem when you team up in apex/tin mage is that most people are already pretty IOed, the buffs from VEATs don't stand out as much. They are still very good though. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That's not really the case. Controller & Dominator Mass Confusion and Total Domination recharge in 240s, same as Fortunata's Aura of Confusion and Total Domination.| Forts control is nice, but given the fact they don't have the sort of relatively quick to recharge AOE control that Controllers and Domis get in one shape or another |
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| coupled with the relatively low durations compared to Controllers and Domis they don't match up, from a pure Control point of view. |
Dominator (before Domination) duration for Total Domination is 11.9 seconds, Controller is 14.9 seconds, while Widow Total Domination is 10.73 seconds. I believe Domination adds 50% so assuming Permadom, Doms and Trollers are about on par. Still, 11 seconds vs 14 is not a _huge_ difference.
I'm not trying to make the case that Forts can replace controllers/dominators, but the argument that the recharge/duration of their AoE controls isn't up to snuff ranges from simply untrue to true but misleading.
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Except of course a Controller / Domis main source of Aoe control doesn't tend to be the aoe hold at all, its the other Aoe mez they get, which was my point. Domis and controllers get another option, which typically recharge in 60 or 90 seconds which Forts lack.|
Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink
That's not really the case. Controller & Dominator Mass Confusion and Total Domination recharge in 240s, same as Fortunata's Aura of Confusion and Total Domination.
Aura of Confusion is 26 seconds, unenhanced. Dominator (before Domination) is 29 seconds, Controller is 37 seconds. All of which is mostly irrelevant because after enhancement the duration is really just 'long enough to decimate the spawn' at that point. Dominator (before Domination) duration for Total Domination is 11.9 seconds, Controller is 14.9 seconds, while Widow Total Domination is 10.73 seconds. I believe Domination adds 50% so assuming Permadom, Doms and Trollers are about on par. Still, 11 seconds vs 14 is not a _huge_ difference. I'm not trying to make the case that Forts can replace controllers/dominators, but the argument that the recharge/duration of their AoE controls isn't up to snuff ranges from simply untrue to true but misleading. |
I wasn't saying a Fort has rubbish aoe control, i was refusing the OPs claim that Forts control just as well as Domis or controllers. they don't.
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I used a second aoe control, of a comparable level, in Mass Confusion vs Aura of Confusion.| Except of course a Controller / Domis main source of Aoe control doesn't tend to be the aoe hold at all, its the other Aoe mez they get, which was my point. |
Beyond outliers like Seeds of Confusion, the only other mez powers common across controller sets are Sleep (which are not usually a main source of aoe control except for in Electric Control or a few very specific situations like LRSF), or Disorient (Fire, Earth, and Grav), which you are correct about Forts not having an easy comparison to, since their aoe stun is on a fairly long timer (360 seconds), though the fact that it doubles as an Extreme damage pbaoe with a 25ft radius makes up for a lot though I admit that's not a control factor.
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Domis and controllers get another option, which typically recharge in 60 or 90 seconds which Forts lack. I wasn't saying a Fort has rubbish aoe control, i was refusing the OPs claim that Forts control just as well as Domis or controllers. they don't. |
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| None of my controllers or Dom feel as powerful as my VEATS, NW and Fort. We have controls, single and AoE, confuse, very very respectable dmg range and melee, mez protection, inherent stealth, respectable recovery inherent, and we can be really really darn difficult to hit. |
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| I don't believe the OP said they control as well as Doms or Controllers. |
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| hold like a controller |
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In the specific case of Mind Controllers/Domis they get Terrify, the AOE sleepie-nighty-snoozey-snooze and the Telekinises thingy as well. But yes, I did read "hold as well as" as "control as well as".|
Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink
I used a second aoe control, of a comparable level, in Mass Confusion vs Aura of Confusion.
Beyond outliers like Seeds of Confusion, the only other mez powers common across controller sets are Sleep (which are not usually a main source of aoe control except for in Electric Control or a few very specific situations like LRSF), or Disorient (Fire, Earth, and Grav), which you are correct about Forts not having an easy comparison to, since their aoe stun is on a fairly long timer (360 seconds), though the fact that it doubles as an Extreme damage pbaoe with a 25ft radius makes up for a lot though I admit that's not a control factor. I don't believe the OP said they control as well as Doms or Controllers. He said: |
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| Important to note that 'feel as powerful' is not 'control as well'. The fact is, there is a threshhold for how much control is necessary to neuter an enemy, and beyond that having the necessary mitigation to apply that control readily, and enough damage to destroy the enemy while those controls are applied. Generally speaking, a Fortunata has more built in mitigation than most dominators, far more damage than most controllers, and enough control to get the job done. It is very easy to see why such a character (ST mez/damage, AoE mez/damage, high defenses, stealth, team buffs, etc) would feel more powerful. |
It was more the idea that they hold as well as the Control primaries as well as Blasting as well as Blasters that I was taking a slight issue with (they do have defenses some of my meleers are jealous of though, I don't Set IO too much and my Fort is basically softcapped when Mindlink is up and a Purple Insp away from it when it isn't, which is glorious. Her Widow alterate is at between 40% and 45% all the time).
Forts are absolute beasts, but I just felt the OP was overgilding the lily a tad is all.
Mind you my Warshade is a beast as well and I find the playstyle a bit more exciting (and more reliable, my Fort can get eaten alive by some things which cause cascading Defense failure).
My crab got the first alpha rare. Then my Ill/Rad, and next my warshade.
Of the 3 my crab is the all around best performer. My Ill/Rad has the best tricks (with PA and rad), but has sorta slow solo mission speed. My warshade has the most utility (TP, full invis, tank mode, high damage, perma eclipse), but the lack of mez protection seems to be my leading cause of death, and the best way to slow me down.
I would love to see an all Crab LRSF run. Wonder how well they would do if they pulled all the AVs at once on the final mission. Would they have enough defense to handle it?
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
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Crabs have scrapper level defenses, and a scrapper can tank the 8 AVs in the finale. I have no doubt a full team of crabs could jump in and kick butt.
As much as I like VEATs, I think you're all over exaggerating. A VEAT is not going to replace a dominator or a controller for a group. A VEAT is not going to replace a defender or corruptor. They aren't going to replace a scrapper, blaster, brute, stalker, tank, or mastermind, either. No group is going to invite a scrapper, then see a VEAT LFT, proceed to kick the scrapper, and invite the VEAT.
The word you guys are looking for is "More versatile than other ATs", not "better in every possible way than other ATs" They can control, they have high defenses, they can buff the team (tactical training: leadership pool x50), and have good damage, but they aren't better than an AT who was built to do a specific job, such as a controller with locking down enemies, a defender with supporting the team, etc.
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
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Then I can promise you that you were NOT playing with "some of the top MF warshades".|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Once I started playing my VEAT and realized its potential, it kinda just ruined every other AT for me. In regards to WS, I've teamed with some of the "top MF'in" Warshades out there and just wasn't very impressed. Watching them faceplant is a bit disappointing after hearing all the hype. |
A warshade that knows what they are doing rarely faceplants and on the rare occasion they do, they are back to full health/endurance in less then a second.
Play one before you talk about it.
That said, My Shade and Fort are definitely my two favorites with my Bane and Arch/MM blaster close behind.
Random thought: Will there be Praetorian Epics?
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Well, the WS being referenced in my experience is "THE" MF'in Warshade around here. I've teamed with him a few times and with some others a couple times as well. Maybe my expectations were just high from all the hype, but it just seemed a bit lackluster to me. Not saying they're horrible, at all, just wasn't "wow'd".
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Originally Posted by Black_Aftermath
Then I can promise you that you were NOT playing with "some of the top MF warshades".
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Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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I dunno about this now at all. To be honest this is what I term "Hero thinking", where everyone has to have a set specific role they excel at. It's the same school of thought as "Khelds aren't great because other ATs can do specific things better than them". I've found that in practice this rule doesn't actually hold much water in this game. (City of Villains is the proof of this, as are most randomly thrown together PuGs).|
Originally Posted by Pinny
As much as I like VEATs, I think you're all over exaggerating. A VEAT is not going to replace a dominator or a controller for a group. A VEAT is not going to replace a defender or corruptor. They aren't going to replace a scrapper, blaster, brute, stalker, tank, or mastermind, either. No group is going to invite a scrapper, then see a VEAT LFT, proceed to kick the scrapper, and invite the VEAT.
The word you guys are looking for is "More versatile than other ATs", not "better in every possible way than other ATs" They can control, they have high defenses, they can buff the team (tactical training: leadership pool x50), and have good damage, but they aren't better than an AT who was built to do a specific job, such as a controller with locking down enemies, a defender with supporting the team, etc. |
In fact in City of Heroes dedicated roles tend to find themselves rendered unnecessary in a lot of cases. I've seen plenty of examples of "dedicated healers" doing very little for a team, and I've been the Controller who finds himself along for the ride on high-end steamrolling teams (even fighting +4s) because the team doesn't really need all that control and we're moving too fast for many of my debuffs to get going.
I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to the "Bestest at everything" vs "Jack of all trades, master of none" argument. Which is an indication of how well a lot of the ATs in the game are balanced in PvE IMO, the devs have done a good job of making a wide variety of different ATs (with lots of variation in them) who can all feel useful in most situations in the game.
I don't see many people ever kicking one character for another in City, anyway.
But if they did, scrappers, brutes, and stalkers would be getting booted left and right in favor of most VEATs, who do similar or superior damage (other than shield defense, which is its own league) at similar survivability (except banes), while also providing strong (and stacking) teammate buffing. "Survivable DPS" is the backbone of City gameplay, either teamed or solo. The fact that VEATs buff teammates is what then gives them that leg up.
I can see wanting to have one scrapper/brute/tanker to act as a meatshield. But otherwise? VEATs offer highly survivable DPS characters who provide solid teammate buffs. That's better than just being highly survivable DPS by a factor of leadership 
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
I read the controller boards and the Dominator boards. I read in plenty of places "Controllers or Doms" are the best AT in the game. Look, in this VEAT crowd, I think I can safely say, a well built VEAT (and especially a fortunata) is IMO powergaming in a big way.
None of my controllers or Dom feel as powerful as my VEATS, NW and Fort. We have controls, single and AoE, confuse, very very respectable dmg range and melee, mez protection, inherent stealth, respectable recovery inherent, and we can be really really darn difficult to hit.
We can do it with finesse or we can't be right there, toe to toe, in your face, with the opposition.
Yes, I know objectively there is no best since everyone's taste is different and everyone's measures are different as well.
Attack like a blaster, hold like a controller, defense which makes some melee toons cry... This is EPIC. Kheldians, I am so sorry, but somebody had to be the test rats for Epic toons. We thank you for that, and the Deity of CoH gave us VEATS.
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.