Mover over ___, VEATS are the best ATs in the game.
By
Barbie_Ink,
Posted on: 2011-02-04 21:09 in Soldiers of Arachnos
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Black Scorpion, Mace Mastery, Shatter Armor. It's an ST melee attack, not a cone, so it's less useful for mobs, but it does -20% resist and is a significantly powerful attack, for -40% resist total. I took it instead of another AOE attack because my Crab is already pretty butch on AOE, but when it comes to taking down single hard targets his damage is a little anemic.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
A Crab who takes Mako for a patron gets -20% resist debuff from Venom Grenade plus -15% from Arctic Breath. It takes some good recharge to make Arctic Breath perma, since its only a 10s duration, but a Crab tends to build for recharge anyway. Total -35% resist debuff, better then the defender.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
My Huntsman is a HP Debuffer. True story.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Originally Posted by Thermal_Velocity
I agree that the first 24 levels are HARD! The VEATs are extremely and incredibly underpowered compared to the normal archetypes. The damage is low and their protection is horrible. However once you get in the mid 20s, giving you SOs and the Bane/Crap/Night Widow/Fortunata build, things change. And in the end levels the VEATs are very strong, possibly the strongest archetype, since they combine a lot of goodness from various archetypes.
This is not to say that the AT is insta win, more that they got a very good toolbox and in the hands of a good player the VEATs can do a lot of awesome feats of power. But because of their versatility they aren't as good as the specialists at their particular role. The VEATs may be durable, but a tanker tanks better. They deal damage, yet can't reach a blaster. They buff the team greatly, yet not fully as much as designated buffers. |
All that is true Thermal but with a VEAT you get damage close to a blaster along with Buffs and a team mate that is almost as survivable as a tank .. or at least as survivable as a scrapper if not better (About the same HPs and a lot of Defense some scrappers builds would kill to have). Get a couple VEATS on the same team and suddenly no one is taking extreme damage and things just seem to die very quickly. Then add in potential venom grenades, poisonous rays, etc and while its no where near the debuff of a controller things are taking more damage and taking it quicker. Its a win/win situation!
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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All fair points. Hey, I know it debuffs. When I think of debuffing "exceptionally well," I'm thinking of my Earth/Storm which is specifically built to debuff and has no significant DPS. He does, however, floor defense and resistance (and has two of the -Resist procs) and whacks critter To Hit. He outperforms my /Rad in overall debuffage, except for -Regen.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Lets look at -resist debuffing, arguably the most important debuff for "hard" targets like AVs, since they resist other debuffs such as slow, -tohit and -regen to the tune of 87% at level 50.
A rad defender, which is generally considered the "goto" choice for debuffing, debuffs resistance by 30% with Enervating Field. Ditto Dark defender with Tar Patch. |
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Rad is only the "Goto" set for AV debuffing because it existed before traps:|
Originally Posted by Scientist
Lets look at -resist debuffing, arguably the most important debuff for "hard" targets like AVs, since they resist other debuffs such as slow, -tohit and -regen to the tune of 87% at level 50.
A rad defender, which is generally considered the "goto" choice for debuffing, debuffs resistance by 30% with Enervating Field. Ditto Dark defender with Tar Patch. A Crab who takes Mako for a patron gets -20% resist debuff from Venom Grenade plus -15% from Arctic Breath. It takes some good recharge to make Arctic Breath perma, since its only a 10s duration, but a Crab tends to build for recharge anyway. Total -35% resist debuff, better then the defender. A Crab can also slot an Achilles proc in their fast recharge, Tier 1 attack, and average another 10% or so, which only the rad secondary can do on a defender. So unless the defender takes Sonic as a secondary, the Crab can out debuff a rad defender for the main debuff needed for AVs, which is quite respectable performance-wise. The Crab is also inflicting damage during this, no animation time used to cast it. I actually looked at the numbers to compare my Crab AoE attack chain to a Fire blaster's primary, since Fire is considered top tier. A Crab takes about twice as long, ~11 seconds, to do the same damage a Fire blaster does in about 6 sec, assuming Fire Breath + Fireball + Rain of Fire. The compensation is from about 5 seconds in, all the rest of the team damage starts going up from -resist debuffing from the Crab, so the total damage from a team may well be higher over a fight that takes 10+ seconds then from a Fire Blaster + team. I ignored Defiance for the blaster and Assault + pets from the Crab, since I was looking for an order of magnitude type comparison. |
Traps can:
Set down 2-3 Acid mortars which stack with eachother: 53.2-79.8% resist debuffing
Use Poison Gas Trap for: -1000% regen perma
Stack Seeker Drones for: 53.2-106.4% damage debuffing
and Pile on -90% recharge
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`Thank you.|
Originally Posted by Krogoth
Rad is only the "Goto" set for AV debuffing because it existed before traps:
Traps can: Set down 2-3 Acid mortars which stack with eachother: 53.2-79.8% resist debuffing Use Poison Gas Trap for: -1000% regen perma Stack Seeker Drones for: 53.2-106.4% damage debuffing and Pile on -90% recharge |
More people need to get this drilled into thier heads.
I got denied a team yesterday on my traps because "traps doesn't debuff."
To many uneducated people in this game.
I would love to see a Rad do some of the things my trapper can, and survive.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
There is a good reason you see alot of RO teams with:
Trappers,
VEATS,
Rads,
EMPs,
Kins.
newish to RO are:
Shield defense,
and Lightning rod melee
We break the game with win.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
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mmm a team of 8 VEATS is like heaven on a bun.....
For reals, couple of forts/NWs, couple of crabs, couple of banes/huntsies.
Inpenetrable defenses and loves AoE devastation <3
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
VEATs are awesome and I really like my Fort/NW (both builds IOd out) and my Bane, they are both in my top 5 favorite toons.
I'll only go as far as saying they are the most well rounded
I'll agree that they are head and shoulds above k"HELD"ians, and they are very versitile like playing as a Dom on LGTF to hold the Green Mitos, or support on LRSF to provide team +def, +tohit and -regen on the AVs,etc.
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I hate VEAT teams. Things die too fast so you end up feeling like you're playing with game shark.
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Originally Posted by Rintera
mmm a team of 8 VEATS is like heaven on a bun.....
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Yes, what I meant by the phrase "goto" was that I see lots of calls for rads for debuffing because they do it very well even with basic SO type builds, and people know about them, and the debuffs are quite visible. They are thus pretty much "no brainer" additions to high level teams, you don't have to count on great players or pricy builds, and they are useful as a baseline debuffer for comparison. I still have 2 rads as main characters, because I started them back in I2, and they are a lot of fun to play. |
Originally Posted by Krogoth
Rad is only the "Goto" set for AV debuffing because it existed before traps:
Traps can: Set down 2-3 Acid mortars which stack with eachother: 53.2-79.8% resist debuffing Use Poison Gas Trap for: -1000% regen perma Stack Seeker Drones for: 53.2-106.4% damage debuffing and Pile on -90% recharge |
But I agree Cold and Traps, especially either paired with Sonic blasts (none of which existed when I made my rads or for many issues thereafter) are even better debuffers, especially with high end +recharge builds. I now have a level 50 cold/sonic defender that just does disgusting things to AVs and GMs, and am working (slowly, stupid new incarnate content!
) on a fire/traps corruptor, traps was a lot of fun on a MM. On the subject of -regen vs. -resist, I saw some calculations quite awhile back that made a good case that -regen is overrated against AVs, its "equivalent dps" is fairly low. Unfortunately I didn't copy them. Reichsman, with his excessive boatload of hit points may also be an exception. But thats why I wanted to point out that although a SoA is not a specialist debuffer, it has the potential with the right Patron pool to be at least a pretty good one. Last ITF I was on went slowly on Rommy because our only debuffer was a SoA with Venom Grenade, but I suspect that we would have been completely stalled if it weren't for that, our tank didn't have the hang of keeping the healing nictus around a corner and it was a solid 10-15 minutes to take Rommy down the first 3 times. That 20% extra total damage from every teammate probably made the difference.
I have a Crab and Widow both at 50(+1), and the Bane is at 45 [I did them separate rather than dual-build because when I don't want the backpack I DON'T want the backpack].
My widow is easily the nastiest beast of any of my characters... Poison, stabbing, Soul Mastery, double Leadership and soft-capped to almost everything? She is awesome!
My crab is an AoE machine. 5 pets, Leviathan (venom grenade + Bile Spray = lots of mobs melting before your very eyes) and Supression is the coolest looking power of them all.
My Bane is essentially a stalker with a big @$$ club. He is popping blue insps every other spawn NOW, but once I get him up to 50 and then through the Cardiac Incarnate... He will be an AV killer for sure!
Widows and fortunatas actually do have -Regen from their attacks, colossal.
25% if I remember right....
but yes, SoA aren't really debuffers by nature...I mean I'm fairly sure psi attacks do -recharge or something automatically but that's not really debuffing.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue