You're not going to be around here long, are you?
Well, off the top of my head:
Deflector - just how would they solo? All toons can solo, no matter AT or powerset combo.
Destroyer - mobs get in range pretty quick, especially in large groups. Conversely, apart from the AOE protection, if ranged def is so high, what would prevent just getting a jet pack and hovering over mobs all day long blasting them? What would happen in caves or other tight areas. Seems like a frustrating AT to play.
Executor - Just how would this toon hold up to Carnies, or Malta, or any other mob with a status effect? They would be held/defeated no matter their damage output.
They also seem to me like the Defender, Blaster and Brute. Very similar.
I think you really need to rethink these.
The "Deflector" - what do they do solo? By your description, they *cannot* defeat anything on their own. Not "It can take a while," but cannot, period.
The "Destroyer" - why would I play this? Can't attack in melee range? I can pick powers and not have them work? There's no "minimum range" on any power now - my blaster can work through a full ranged attack chain at an inch from an enemy's face. Why would I pick something that I have to run away to do anything with?
The "Executor" - Go find a low level Tank or Scrapper - like, oh, JUST when they get into the Hollows. Run them at a group of Circle with a Madness Mage (spawns around level 5 or so.) Note yourself standing there, unable to do anything, because (a) you don't have range and (b) you have no mez protection or, really, ANY armor. Now imagine trying to drag through *another 45 levels* of that. They're not going to "stay standing" by their damage output if they can't stay standing or activate any powers.
No. Just... no.
As for your "job descriptions," well, the current ATs - sometimes several - can handle them right now.
No, no and no. in other words, /UNSIGNED.
I kinda like the idea behind the Executor, and as written it could possibly be made barely viable due to the ability to get some resistance, defense, and mez protection from Pool Powers (Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, and Acrobatics), but it wouldn't be easy or much fun getting to that point, you'd still be vulnerable to the majority of effects (Stun, Confuse, etc), and those Pools would pretty much be required for every Executor, regardless of the character's actual concept.
And it might be more workable with a heavy overhaul of the melee sets - Primary could be Offensive Melee (melee attacks that debuff and/or mez the target, pretty much what we have now, probably with higher percentages to take effect), and Secondary could be Defensive Melee (melee attacks that buff the user when they hit, similar to Claws' Follow Up and Broadsword's Parry). Defensive Melee is the one that would have to be created from scratch, to include more defense buffs, resistance buffs, and mez protection.
In effect, I could see it working if it was something like a melee-range Dominator, with higher damage output making up for the lack of range.
The other two... far more problematic. As said, Deflector absolutely needs attacks (and giving them such pretty much turns them into Defenders), and Destroyers are pretty much just Blasters with a massive handicap (inability to use even Pool melee powers - what about Brawl?), bad armor (no S/L damage resist or defense seems weird on its own), and a whole new "minimum range" mechanic that'd have to be written into the game.
Though the more I think about this, the more I just like the idea of a Defensive Melee powerset of some sort (for the current melee ATs, that is, not as a new AT). That'd probably require all new dodging animations, though, and would probably be overpowered when stacked with actual Armors.
I really think that one of the last things we are ever going to see added to this game are new archetypes. We really don't need any more, all of the existing ones can cover every conceivable role and with Going Rogue you can play any of these roles in any city.
I can't be bothered to think of something amazingly wise or witty to show how much of a genius I am, just take my word for it.
It's probably just because of my RL job (financial) - but every time I read through this thread, I can't help but wonder why one of OP's new ATs is a person who handles the estate of a dead person (Exec-utor). Sorry, I guess it's one of those quirky English language things.
Anywho, I'm agreeing with Memphis Bill about these - strange limitations on these things would make them pretty unplayable. Not just "challenging", but really unplayable.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
/unsigned. These AT ideas seem ridiculously broken and unplayable.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I picked up on that as well. I was thinking AoE damage? Is that when the Executor reads that the bereaved's mistress is getting the estate in Monte Carlo with the new Aston-Martin, and the grieving widow is left with the home in Malibu and the Porsche?
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
It's probably just because of my RL job (financial) - but every time I read through this thread, I can't help but wonder why one of OP's new ATs is a person who handles the estate of a dead person (Exec-utor). Sorry, I guess it's one of those quirky English language things.
Anywho, I'm agreeing with Memphis Bill about these - strange limitations on these things would make them pretty unplayable. Not just "challenging", but really unplayable. |
While I think these will never make it into game (For reasons above.) I think its all in good fun to try and create new AT's, so don't bash the OP himself because his ideas won't work.
Anyway...
The executor could have a bar similar to fury, where everytime he killed someone it raised, and the bar could grant him some mez protection and somewhat so he can keep killing.
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I don't think you realize how this part of the forums work.
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Originally Posted by Shadowclone
so don't bash the OP himself because his ideas won't work
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Sorry, but I would honestly suggest playing the game a bit more and learning how ATs and particularly Solo/Team dynamics and diversity actually work. Because those three are horrifically broken as to be a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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deflectors can indeed solo, the will do some damage, and infact with thier negative taunt and enemy deflection powers they can make enemies stand there helplessly while they do it. sorta like a controller but more like a widow. simply with negative taunt they can;t be selected as an attack target.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Well, off the top of my head:
Deflector - just how would they solo? All toons can solo, no matter AT or powerset combo. Destroyer - mobs get in range pretty quick, especially in large groups. Conversely, apart from the AOE protection, if ranged def is so high, what would prevent just getting a jet pack and hovering over mobs all day long blasting them? What would happen in caves or other tight areas. Seems like a frustrating AT to play. Executor - Just how would this toon hold up to Carnies, or Malta, or any other mob with a status effect? They would be held/defeated no matter their damage output. |
Destroyer, yeah it's a blaster with armor, it had to be a little hindered in order to not be god modding.. Damage types; they will be resistant to fire cold energy ETC. and have such defense, so everything except smashing lethal will be some what filtered. maybe allowing them to get pool melee attacks would be ok.
On the executor (meant like the guy who runs the guillotine) notes, Very valid points, maybe they should at least get full status effect res and def in their primary attack set.
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Blaster with Armour being godmode?|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
Destroyer, yeah it's a blaster with armor, it had to be a little hindered in order to not be god modding.. Damage types; they will be resistant to fire cold energy ETC. and have such defense, so everything except smashing lethal will be some what filtered. maybe allowing them to get pool melee attacks would be ok.
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Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos look at you with mild amusement and slight confusion.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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1) You never said in your first post that they would have attacks. Don't be surprised when people can't understand what you're thinking if you don't put it down. Nothing you were saying about them in the first post made it seem like they could solo.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
deflectors can indeed solo, the will do some damage, and infact with thier negative taunt and enemy deflection powers they can make enemies stand there helplessly while they do it. sorta like a controller but more like a widow. simply with negative taunt they can;t be selected as an attack target.
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2) the Devs will NEVER give an AT the ability to attack with absolutely no chance of return fire, which is what you're suggesting.
3) I don't think that you really understand how threat works in this game, nor how modifying the Threat formula to account for -Threat would allow huge exploits into the game.
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| Destroyer, yeah it's a blaster with armor, it had to be a little hindered in order to not be god modding.. Damage types; they will be resistant to fire cold energy ETC. and have such defense, so everything except smashing lethal will be some what filtered. maybe allowing them to get pool melee attacks would be ok. |
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| On the executor (meant like the guy who runs the guillotine) notes, Very valid points, maybe they should at least get full status effect res and def in their primary attack set. |
And yeah, being all melee damage is fine, right up until the point where you get hit with anything.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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let me clarify more: |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
1) You never said in your first post that they would have attacks. Don't be surprised when people can't understand what you're thinking if you don't put it down. Nothing you were saying about them in the first post made it seem like they could solo.
2) the Devs will NEVER give an AT the ability to attack with absolutely no chance of return fire, which is what you're suggesting. 3) I don't think that you really understand how threat works in this game, nor how modifying the Threat formula to account for -Threat would allow huge exploits into the game. You still haven't addressed the fact that every ranged attack in the game can be used at melee range if so desired, nor the fact that enemies can close to melee range pretty quickly, thereby nullifying this AT's ability to do much of anything after the first couple of shots. You meant Executioner. And yeah, being all melee damage is fine, right up until the point where you get hit with anything. |
the deflector's negative taunt powers will last about as long as a typical hold and have about the same recharge time. the whole point of negative taunt is simply, if they get low on health they can make the enemy forget they are there and run away to recuperate.
the destroyer; we've been requesting a non-squishy ranged at for a while, if you'll note, the compromise that they came to for the kheldians and such was random kheldian, nictus and void stalker spawns.
I honestly would rather have to back up and fire from a distance (which is what the blasters that live do anyways) the armor is pretty much just to minimize damages sustained at range and provide some protection against ambushes from the rear.
Executioner;with high enough damage and enough AoE yes they will take some damage but they will most likely finish the mob before it does any significant damage, further more on a team with a tank, that tank can hold aggro and let them clear freely.
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Ask stalkers how well this works. One DOT going - either way - and you're remembered. |
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
let me clarify more:
the deflector's negative taunt powers will last about as long as a typical hold and have about the same recharge time. the whole point of negative taunt is simply, if they get low on health they can make the enemy forget they are there and run away to recuperate. |
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| the destroyer; we've been requesting a non-squishy ranged at for a while, if you'll note, the compromise that they came to for the kheldians and such was random kheldian, nictus and void stalker spawns. |
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| I honestly would rather have to back up and fire from a distance (which is what the blasters that live do anyways) |
Heh.
Bwahahaha....
Riiiight. Obviously nobody ever uses the nuke (melee range for most sets,) or most of their secondary (which is all - ready? - *melee.*) "Blasters that live" do damage, then do more damage to follow up, possibly with a bit of control thrown in. They don't "run away" if something comes into melee. They hit it *hard.* (Most of the more *damaging* ST attacks are melee range.) Any blaster whose response to "Something is getting closer" is "Run awaaaaay!" is a blaster that's not even using 1/2 of their ability.
"Blasters that live run away." Need to tell that to a friend of mine who was basically tanking with hers. She could probably use a good laugh.
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| Executioner;with high enough damage and enough AoE yes they will take some damage but they will most likely finish the mob before it does any significant damage, further more on a team with a tank, that tank can hold aggro and let them clear freely. |
No. Absolutely not.
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Ah. An AoE version of Placate? Autohit or not? By duration do you mean even if you attack? Placate currently breaks when you launch a new attack or when the duration wears off (assuming you haven't fled or re-established hidden status). I'd be very supprised to see a version that doesn't break when you attack so this is really only good for a panic button. Does it provide a Placate-like effect for the whole team? That seems like it would be extremely overpowered with multiple people using this on the same team.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
let me clarify more:
the deflector's negative taunt powers will last about as long as a typical hold and have about the same recharge time. the whole point of negative taunt is simply, if they get low on health they can make the enemy forget they are there and run away to recuperate. |
I was going to suggest that instead of making a new AT you'd want to try and flesh this out as a Dominator or Controller set, but I don't think that'd work either. I think you're trying to do to much. You want a Defender that is also a Stalker with a Controller thrown in yet different enough from all of those that it is a whole new thing with multiple powerset choices.
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| I honestly would rather have to back up and fire from a distance (which is what the blasters that live do anyways) the armor is pretty much just to minimize damages sustained at range and provide some protection against ambushes from the rear. |
Many, many blasters use their secondary. Range attacks are not the end all, be all for what they do to survive. It's the easiest and most basic strategy for their survival, but hardly the only way they play. They will have soft or even hard controls in their sets to help them out, especially in melee range. (Okay, maybe not Fire/Fire but their trade-off is more damage) There is no reason for a blaster to do nothing but sit behind the tank and use only one of their two powersets unless they want to.Quote:
| Executioner;with high enough damage and enough AoE yes they will take some damage but they will most likely finish the mob before it does any significant damage, further more on a team with a tank, that tank can hold aggro and let them clear freely. |
This AT will eat Break Frees like no other. It almost sounds like you want to make a blapper, but are unsure of how to play one.Like Techbot Alpha said most of these suggestions seem to be made out of unfamiliarity with the existing ATs, powersets, and playstyles. (NOT n00b, let's get that straight. Just newb) I'd really suggest getting a better feel for the game and checking out the AT specific forums for information. Probably best to hold off the suggestions until then.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
In addition to what Memphis Bill said, it sounds like you need to learn how to IO better. You seem to have created these ATs to fill some non-existent niche. Take the Destroyer, for example--same result could be had by softcapping a blaster. It's actually rather easy to do.
The Deflector...
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Where is the damage, then? It sounds like a broken and unnecessary AT.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
Deflector: this archetype focuses on AoE buff and debuff effects, each secondary power set has some sort of 'foe repellant' and 'negative taunt' powers. The strength of all this archetype's powers are determined by the amount of points in the 'deflection bar' which is similar to a domination or fury bar, except the amount of points in the bar is higher and does not decrease unless used by your powers Inherent power: Siphon Powers, ranged AoE (foe -Res -def -Dmg -tohit -hp -end -spd, Self +Special) recharge moderate, you are able to place enhancement slots on this power. Using this power adds points your Deflection bar equivalent to number of combined points you drained from the foe(s). Primary: Buff/Debuff Secondary: Foe repellant/ negative taunt/ team hiding/ foe blinding |
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Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
Executioner;with high enough damage and enough AoE yes they will take some damage but they will most likely finish the mob before it does any significant damage, further more on a team with a tank, that tank can hold aggro and let them clear freely. |
yeah blasters have secondary melee attacks.. but even with body armor tough and weave and maybe stealth and or combat jumping thrown in, they are still a little weaker than scrappers. I know this, cause I have one. I often wish i could use his melee sets without getting killed in most groups. thats kinda what started this.. but then I realized I could just make a scrapper or tank for that purpose.
However, constant ambushes from behind while I was blasting have killed my blaster, dominator and troller in seconds.
thats why I think there should be a simple archetype with armor and ranged.
yes negative taunt wont wear off if you attack until the enemy breaks free of it. and yes some powersets might include a AoE team hiding/ anti taunt power but it would be less powerful. besides the whole Idea behind this is a Deflectors effects are weak when they have no points in their deflection bar. I forgot to mention that bit.
and about fire armor, yes it's cool, but not nearly the damage I'm talking about. I'm suggesting a basic melee mega damaging archetype.. not much armor just status effect res, maybe 1 weak global res power as well.
I think, then, that instead of trying for these rather broken ATs, you should take your blaster build (download Glycerine from cit.cohtitan.com, have it export the build,) start a thread in the Blaster boards and ask how you can make it better, as well as any tips for playing the character that will help you survive.
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Wish granted. It's called Kheldians and VEATs.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
yeah blasters have secondary melee attacks.. but even with body armor tough and weave and maybe stealth and or combat jumping thrown in, they are still a little weaker than scrappers. I know this, cause I have one. I often wish i could use his melee sets without getting killed in most groups. thats kinda what started this.. but then I realized I could just make a scrapper or tank for that purpose.
However, constant ambushes from behind while I was blasting have killed my blaster, dominator and troller in seconds. thats why I think there should be a simple archetype with armor and ranged. |
And no, no ammount of shiny will stop you dying if your not paying attention to ambushes or stuff that spawns after triggers. New ATs will not stop you being a bad player.
/thread
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Geeze, Bill. Way to be a ****. Seriously, he seems like a new enough poster. No need to go bashing him. I mean, yeah point out the flaws to help him see the problem but some of the things in your posts seem more hostile than needed (not unusual for your posts?). I know I can come off as confrontational but usually toward posters that deserve it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
...
Heh. Bwahahaha.... Riiiight. Obviously nobody ever uses the nuke (melee range for most sets,) or most of their secondary (which is all - ready? - *melee.*) "Blasters that live" do damage, then do more damage to follow up, possibly with a bit of control thrown in. They don't "run away" if something comes into melee. They hit it *hard.* (Most of the more *damaging* ST attacks are melee range.) Any blaster whose response to "Something is getting closer" is "Run awaaaaay!" is a blaster that's not even using 1/2 of their ability. "Blasters that live run away." Need to tell that to a friend of mine who was basically tanking with hers. She could probably use a good laugh. Ahh. So you want to bring the "holy trinity" ("Must have tank, healer, DPS") into the game. You want one AT to almost *require* another. No. Absolutely not. |
Also, all blaster secondaries are melee? I doubt it. Or that one must directly respond to closing mobs or is less than half a blaster? Eh, it depends entirely on the build. Some have less or too little control, others simply excel when at range or take powers to keep them there. Not telling the whole story....
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Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
Deflector: this archetype focuses on AoE buff and debuff effects, each secondary power set has some sort of 'foe repellant' and 'negative taunt' powers. The strength of all this archetype's powers are determined by the amount of points in the 'deflection bar' which is similar to a domination or fury bar, except the amount of points in the bar is higher and does not decrease unless used by your powers
Inherent power: Siphon Powers, ranged AoE (foe -Res -def -Dmg -tohit -hp -end -spd, Self +Special) recharge moderate, you are able to place enhancement slots on this power. Using this power adds points your Deflection bar equivalent to number of combined points you drained from the foe(s). Primary: Buff/Debuff Secondary: Foe repellant/ negative taunt/ team hiding/ foe blinding Destroyer: this archetype has exceptionally high ranged damage, is well known for knock-back effects. But Cannot attack any enemy with-in melee range, additionally due to this archetype's inability to attack melee range foes they may get melee attacks from power pools but those attack wont work. Primary: ranged armor sets (no Smashing, Lethal or Melee resistance or def, and minimal Aoe protection) Secondary: Ranged/Sniper Executor: extremely high melee damage (higher than scrappers and stalkers) with lots of AoE as their hall mark, but no armor. Primary: melee Secondary: melee notes: Deflector; very handy for team aid, and especially handy from breaking mobs up into smaller groups, or telling that pesky AV that decided to show-up "go back and sit in your corner, we aren't ready for you yet" Destroyer: sorta like the yellow Mitochondria of hamidon, they are ranged tanks but cannot handle melee at all!!! Executor: they stay standing purely by thier damage output and AoE, with 2 melee sets they could possibly get 2 rage or 2 build-up powers. |
'Destroyer' does kind of aim to fill that 'traditional tank artillery' staple form comic books like Iron Man and such, but the example you present doesn't fit. Ironman crumpling to a punch? Doesn't work. And the limitations seem to come out of left field and are too restrictive for general play.
'Executioner' and 'Deflector' don't seem to be fulfilling anything. It's not a comic staple, it's not a game staple nor do they fulfill a specifically desired role on a team. You should take them all back to the drawing board, IMO.
ok I'm just gonna throw these out here and see what people think about them.
3 new archetypes
Deflector: this archetype focuses on AoE buff and debuff effects, each secondary power set has some sort of 'foe repellant' and 'negative taunt' powers. The strength of all this archetype's powers are determined by the amount of points in the 'deflection bar' which is similar to a domination or fury bar, except the amount of points in the bar is higher and does not decrease unless used by your powers
Inherent power: Siphon Powers, ranged AoE (foe -Res -def -Dmg -tohit -hp -end -spd, Self +Special) recharge moderate, you are able to place enhancement slots on this power. Using this power adds points your Deflection bar equivalent to number of combined points you drained from the foe(s).
Primary: Buff/Debuff
Secondary: Foe repellant/ negative taunt/ team hiding/ foe blinding
Destroyer: this archetype has exceptionally high ranged damage, is well known for knock-back effects. But Cannot attack any enemy with-in melee range, additionally due to this archetype's inability to attack melee range foes they may get melee attacks from power pools but those attack wont work.
Primary: ranged armor sets (no Smashing, Lethal or Melee resistance or def, and minimal Aoe protection)
Secondary: Ranged/Sniper
Executor: extremely high melee damage (higher than scrappers and stalkers) with lots of AoE as their hall mark, but no armor.
Primary: melee
Secondary: melee
notes:
Deflector; very handy for team aid, and especially handy from breaking mobs up into smaller groups, or telling that pesky AV that decided to show-up "go back and sit in your corner, we aren't ready for you yet"
Destroyer: sorta like the yellow Mitochondria of hamidon, they are ranged tanks but cannot handle melee at all!!!
Executor: they stay standing purely by thier damage output and AoE, with 2 melee sets they could possibly get 2 rage or 2 build-up powers.