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I'm likely to blame as I've been a loud opponent of Peacebringers of late, but that's actually a misrepresentation of my message.|
Originally Posted by Toony
Well Double XP weekend is tomorrow and I was considering what to roll for it. I had a peacebringer back in the day and it wasn't so bad but nowadays all I hear is how they're terrible. Can't do anything. Worst class in the game. Waste of time. ETC ETC.
What exactly happened to them? What is so bad about them? I'm just curious because I don't get whats so horrid about them. |
They're not terrible or unplayable. They're simply below the balance point. On SOs, and before level 32, they are one of the better ATs in the game. After that point, however, their usefulness pales in comparison to others.
PBs are a hybrid AT. They're supposed to be more survivable than blasters and more damage dealing than tanks. The problem is that everyone is doing everything better than they are right now. Blasters get defense shields and tankers get ranged AoE attacks.
You can make a very good PB with the right investment. If you were to take that same investment into another AT, however, you'd end up with something better. The possible exception is a stalker.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I agree with Dechs. I know that on mine, solo I felt weak, but definitely playable, but on a team, I was basically just along for the ride a lot of the time. Granted, I could do some pretty cool things, but I wasn't needed as a Tank usually, wasn't needed as a Blaster, wasn't needed as a Scrapper, and wasn't needed for my controls/heals. As such, everything I did was pretty much superfluous to the team. I could switch roles when needed, but most of the time the teams would have been better off with another of any other AT than with me.
Granted, I was pure human form, which limited me a bit more than most, and gave me my own set of challenges (yay! my PBAoE causes massive scatter! Now I get to go chase everything before I can hit them again!), but on teams, I just felt like the constant little brother.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
what the other two said.
Most.....very stable teams(not just people doing simple missions) look for very specific ATs...
people want controllers and doms for the HARD controls.
Tanks are...well....tanks.
Most brutes that have a good IO build are just as durable as tanks, and do hella more damage.
Scrappers too.
Defenders are always useful for buffs/debuffs.
blasters are pure damage
And I think the main thing is....chosing epic ATs, the arachnos ones(I'm biased I guess) are so much more superior compared to the Hero epics, that the hero epics just seem....bad.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
Actually my biggest hangup is how many absolutely terrible players of Khelds that there are compared with good players. The group I play with most often agrees. We have played with some epic Khelds, but they are so few and far between that it makes /regen without Integration look good.
Case in point, team ran an ITF a little while back with a pug Kheld. He had Stygian Circle, yet was constantly having to be healed and/or rezed by other team members. He never touched it. One of the other players who actually knows how to play a Warshade finally understood why we avoid teaming with Khelds most of the time.
Peacebringers, in my mind, got hit hardest by issue 6. They were the jack of all trades, but the villain archetypes bring much of the kheldian hybrid approach then kick it up a notch by having a powerful specialty besides. Peacebringers are still highly flexible, especially triforms, but are often if not always overshadowed by someone who can do that thing they are currently doing but better.
Warshades have the siphon powers to be a mob-based force multiplier on their behalf- peacebringers are more self-sufficient, but this can work against them. They are where they start off, outside of the team buffs they receive. With Io's, Hero AT upgrades, villain AT's, Veats and experienced players the flexibility and contribution of a peacebringer is rivaled by many other equally flexible characters that can also be more powerful.
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Originally Posted by Toony
Well Double XP weekend is tomorrow and I was considering what to roll for it. I had a peacebringer back in the day and it wasn't so bad but nowadays all I hear is how they're terrible. Can't do anything. Worst class in the game. Waste of time. ETC ETC.
What exactly happened to them? What is so bad about them? I'm just curious because I don't get whats so horrid about them. |
The things that they are good at are not generally valued very highly: Tanking and Single Target Burst Damage. Dechs implied comparison to Stalkers is apt.
I enjoy my PB, but it can't be denied that she's even more of a "jack of all trades, master of none" than my WS. The WS can also be described as "often better than master of one", but the PB can't really.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I like my Warshade, but god damn I hate Voids/Quantums. I spend too much time on my back with them to be fair.
I dunno...
It aggravated me that when on a full team that a Scrapper's AoEs outdamaged mine, and they were more survivable to boot, and that I had to walk on Glass to keep from KBing everything all over the place so they wouldn't silently wish I wasn't there ( or maybe not silently at times...)
It aggravated me that I had 6-full purple sets and tons of other Uniques, but struggled to Solo at +0/+4
It aggravated me that VEATs were very welcome on teams and had inate Mez Protection without having to look like a mutated rhino
My PB sits in retirement, gutted of all her grand IO sets. She holds a special place in me heart, but I doubt I'll play her seriously again until PBs get some much needed love
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Essentially, every other AT in the game got alot stronger except for Kheldians, the game got harder, expectations were raised, and Peacebringers, with particularly glaring design flaws, struggle the most with today's expected performance. Other than balance (numeric) issues with other ATs (of which are too numerous to discuss without starting a flamewar), the most glaring quality of life problems with kheldian peacebringers are (IMHO):|
Originally Posted by Toony
What exactly happened to them? What is so bad about them? I'm just curious because I don't get whats so horrid about them.
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- Excessive knockback (instead of the much more useful knockdown) on every AoE power except dwarf PBAoE makes you unwelcome on teams that don't know you;
- Human form PBAoE (the best attack in the set) gets greyed out if you use your PB inherent ability to fly (brilliant, this one);
- While you do have alot of power picks, you probably won't be able to decently slot human form + Nova/Dwarf (each of which have powers that require their own slotting, nevermind that they're basically replicas of human form powers), so you're either a fully human form (meh) or a Triform with shoddy attacks in Lightform;
- No mez protection outside of Dwarf/Light form, despite the fact that you have a constantly spawning kryptonite (void seekers/quantum gunners) that stuns/kb with every shot;
- You suffer alot for your inherent Cosmic Balance, as your *potential* damage in teams means you have at best old FF defender damage soloing or in the wrong 8-man team (think of Invulnerability's power Invincibility before the changes - an actual penalty to defense while fighting ranged mobs vs almost capped defense while surrounded with an 8-man spawn in a team).
So make one, but be prepared for a harder experience than a Sonic/Elec defender. Just be prepared to lower your difficulty and get alot of trouble finding teams. Good news is that PBs have their own special plot missions, so if you didn't go through them already it's always a fun read.
And whatever you do, don't make a VEAT at the same time you make a PB, you'll send your keyboard flying through your window in frustration.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I like my Warshade, but god damn I hate Voids/Quantums. I spend too much time on my back with them to be fair.
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You're supposed to be a fighter, not a lover. Stop fraternising with the enemy.
Some of the ways my WS got around the void seekers/quantum gunners was to replace the normal tab bind with a custom one setup to target void seekers/quantum gunners as well as sappers. I normally never have many issues with them since I often employ the "Get you some A******!" mentality.My main issue is with those pain in my A**! Cysts since those unbound nictus often wail on me while I atempt to go tow that damned infernal piece of crap into a lake of lava.
Also bare in mind that I leveled a Warshade to 50 first so when I kept trying to play a PB (so far my count at attempts is four and counting) I always feel so underwhelmed that I often just say screw it and delete them.I hope PBs can get a buff to they are at least as useful to me as my Warshade is at least solo since my VEATs are both far better suited for team and solo play than my PBs ever were.
Hell I even spent many a restless night trying to find a viable build in Mids only to se the end result be too much effort with not enough payoff unlike my WS.They don't suck persay they just don't do anything for me.Hell my DS/Therm MM is able to do more than my PBs could at lvl 30! It could just be me but I don't think I'm too far from how others feel about PBs.
Not specifically a PB problem...or a mechanics problem, but just a "What's so bad about kheldians".
We get ignored for little things like power customization. Im not even talking coloring our powers...pretty much everything we have is off someone elses animation table, but we didnt get any of the new alternate animations for anybody...melee, or range...
Not being able to color our effects is pretty bad too, but they cant even bother to give us the alternate animations?
Makes me sad and just drives home the belief that we're an afterthought that will only really get looked at if we've got a game breaking bug.
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Honestly as a warshade, i feel that the only time in my career I should have a problem with voids/quantums is lvl 1-20. After that you have black dwarf, stygian circle and enough inspiration slots for an emergency break free that the most you should be inconvenienced by a void is 3 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I like my Warshade, but god damn I hate Voids/Quantums. I spend too much time on my back with them to be fair.
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All IMHO. There is nothing wrong or bad about Peacebringers. People don't realize that Tanker is a strong component of their makeup. Taht means they have slower harder hitting attacks, have very strong defenses (healing, shields, Health Boost, etc). PBs are self-contained and aren't dependent on any external for their buffs. PBs can solo just fine. They aren't optimal solo, but they aren't stick with soloing at -1/x1 at a slow pace. And they aren't running at +4/x8 all the time either.
Where a PB excels is in a team. The larger the team, the better. On a somewhat balanced team, you'll have Tanker level damage res, running at Blaster level damage (I'm taking about base damage levels, and with Controllers, you don't worry about the hard mezzs affecting you. They just you inherent powers and not other outside buffs. When you stack taking your of self buffs and other buffs in effect, your go up from there.
The naysayer point out the downsides and I'm pointing out the upsides. There at AT/power combos that are better than a Peacebringer, but there are also plenty that are worse as well. Create your Peacebringer. If you enjoy the character, keep playing it.
If you are having fun, you are doing it right. And that's all that matters.
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Well, he's not level 20 yet, so....
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Originally Posted by Yat Man
Honestly as a warshade, i feel that the only time in my career I should have a problem with voids/quantums is lvl 1-20. After that you have black dwarf, stygian circle and enough inspiration slots for an emergency break free that the most you should be inconvenienced by a void is 3 seconds.
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QFT. There really aren't any unplayable ATs or powerset combinations out there. People talk about things sucking or being uber, when in reality, most everything performs solidly, with some moving beyond dependable normal sedan territory into hot Corvette territory (and even then, people are swayed by powersets they prefer on a purely subjective basis).|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
The naysayer point out the downsides and I'm pointing out the upsides. There at AT/power combos that are better than a Peacebringer, but there are also plenty that are worse as well. Create your Peacebringer. If you enjoy the character, keep playing it.
If you are having fun, you are doing it right. And that's all that matters. |
There isn't anything bad about Peacebringers, at least in the way that most people use the word bad. Could they use some tweaking to improve performance and not have their steady performance be outshown by Warshades when they're at one of their peaks (and not one of the valleys Warshades have to contend with)? Sure. Suggestions for have been tossed out ad nauseum since the last Kheldian tweak back in I13 or so, and both Castle and BAB apparently left things on a backburner, at best. We have no clue what their replacements think about the issue (let alone overall design philosophy to balance, etc.), and whether they're even thinking about the issue. Personally, I'm not holding my breath for a change, even if it's as due as a tweak to Fiery Aura was.
In the meantime, however, Peacebringers offer more consistent performance than Warshades, and have flavor differences that can make them more fun for people. I know a lot of people in the Kheld forums love their Warshade and all, but they're not for everyone (I have a very, very hard time getting around the soul-sucking aspect... I have a character concept where I think of my WS as sucking the evil from a villain and using it against them, but it doesn't always work for me... he's still at level 20). Best thing I can say to anyone between the two is read about the two powersets, read how they are different, and go with what sounds fun to you.
You're not ever going to be bad with a Peacebringer or a Warshade, unless you can't play them well. That's the only determination there: it's not something ingrained from the numbers. Either one can add a lot to a team or be fun to solo, if you're willing to work with how the two sets work.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I agree with the spirit of your post - especially the parts about teaming and having fun - but one quibble with the quoted part...|
Originally Posted by Fuzun
have very strong defenses (healing, shields, Health Boost, etc).
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Peacebringers have demonstrably lower defenses than Warshades, as well as a tier 9 that - unless you don't have dwarf form or break frees - is almost completely invalidated by having 3 damage dealers on the team (shields and/or Dwarf resistances assumed).
The lower overall damage potential I can deal with, although I would like to see Photon Seekers' recharge reduced considerably, but something should also be tweaked with Light Form.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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This is exactly what I feel about my human PB right now. Blasts and melee attacks are weaker than Blaster/Dominator. Resistance-wise, it's very decent but you lack mez protection on your own. This is a big problem if you think you can "tank". You don't control better than Controller or don't debuff/heal better than Defender. The whole PB has a mix of powers but is a Master of None. Some powers also don't synergize well like how Solar Flare does knockback and you can't use it in air (Hover). |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
PBs are a hybrid AT. They're supposed to be more survivable than blasters and more damage dealing than tanks. The problem is that everyone is doing everything better than they are right now. Blasters get defense shields and tankers get ranged AoE attacks.
You can make a very good PB with the right investment. If you were to take that same investment into another AT, however, you'd end up with something better. The possible exception is a stalker. |
PB is definitely playable. I just feel the AT doesn't excel in anything. So far, the #1 thing I like about PB is their resistance with other Brute/Tanker on the team. My resistance can get really high (but no psionic resistance mind you!).
How bad is PB? It really depends what you are comparing with? Did you fully IO other toons? If you did, you can try to compare.
I am coming from the biggest fan of alphaed Fortunata and Bane (followed by Blood Widow build) and I can tell you PB is really really weak atm. But PB VS Stalker on a team is comparable. lol
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Speaking about on a team, we were doing Air Pirate SF the other day and I took out my lvl 29 human PB. Well, I warned my teammates that I have tons of knockbacks especially when I use Solar Flare. I enjoy "foot stomp" animation because I have not tried Super Strength yet and Solar Flare looks and sounds cool. The knockback is just so nasty. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I agree with the spirit of your post - especially the parts about teaming and having fun - but one quibble with the quoted part...
Peacebringers have demonstrably lower defenses than Warshades, as well as a tier 9 that - unless you don't have dwarf form or break frees - is almost completely invalidated by having 3 damage dealers on the team (shields and/or Dwarf resistances assumed). The lower overall damage potential I can deal with, although I would like to see Photon Seekers' recharge reduced considerably, but something should also be tweaked with Light Form. |
And no, I would try to position myself for better knockback but I don't particularly enjoy positioning myself EVERY time I use a power. It's tedious. Knockback is in the game so live with it!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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You may have quibble with what I said, but it doesn make what I said false. Peacebringer do have very strong defenses. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I agree with the spirit of your post - especially the parts about teaming and having fun - but one quibble with the quoted part...
Peacebringers have demonstrably lower defenses than Warshades, as well as a tier 9 that - unless you don't have dwarf form or break frees - is almost completely invalidated by having 3 damage dealers on the team (shields and/or Dwarf resistances assumed). The lower overall damage potential I can deal with, although I would like to see Photon Seekers' recharge reduced considerably, but something should also be tweaked with Light Form. |
And I never said the PB's defenses were stronger or weaker a Warshade's. There are each strong in their own different ways.
And I do agree about Lightform (and all of the Tier 9 defenses). I'd like to seem them revamped, or a new Tier 9 power added to the those defense sets. I doubt the first one every be done. But I'm hopeful the second could be done.
I didn't really pay attention before but I am noticing a small pattern here.
More often than not I am seeing that the people who are complaining about their PB's mention theirs as being a Human Only form PB.
Maybe it's significant, maybe it's not. But there seem to be far fewer people who play a Triform build speaking up about the downsides of the PB.
I've already made my opinion on the subject known so I wont repeat that here but I thought it was an interesting enough observation to mention.
Death can be Beautiful. A Night Widow Guide on a budget
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Hmmm, it's hard to say. When I look at the two, I can honestly say that a Human Warshade seems more viable than a Peacebringer. That's actually why my PB is a tri-form, and the Warshade I'm slowly bringing along is human focused. The stuns and other controls seem more viable to make it work.|
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Whisper
I didn't really pay attention before but I am noticing a small pattern here.
More often than not I am seeing that the people who are complaining about their PB's mention theirs as being a Human Only form PB. Maybe it's significant, maybe it's not. But there seem to be far fewer people who play a Triform build speaking up about the downsides of the PB. I've already made my opinion on the subject known so I wont repeat that here but I thought it was an interesting enough observation to mention. |
Not sure what all is behind the feeling, but Peacebringers just need some tweaking. People have to be a bit more careful about how they discuss things, I would say, as that's the biggest cause behind the issue.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
That's really odd, because of the two, the PB is the one that should go human form. Aside from Essence Boost, its self buffs are either wasted in the form shift or lock you out of forms entirely.|
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Whisper
I didn't really pay attention before but I am noticing a small pattern here.
More often than not I am seeing that the people who are complaining about their PB's mention theirs as being a Human Only form PB. Maybe it's significant, maybe it's not. But there seem to be far fewer people who play a Triform build speaking up about the downsides of the PB. I've already made my opinion on the subject known so I wont repeat that here but I thought it was an interesting enough observation to mention. |
We've got the numbers now, and taking all forms into account, the WS pulls ahead in all categories.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
You know, I've had that stated to me before (I think Alien One said it when I first was planning my all Human with Dwarf for a backup Warshade build), and I really don't agree. You mentioned Essence Boost and its long duration, but things like Conserve Energy and Hasten are on long timers too, and they're best fired up before a fight, really. Build Up is unfortunately short for formshifting, of course, but that's best used before a fight as well. So none of those fairly key powers negate Peacebringers being in a form during a fight. The only thing that you need to be in human to take advantage of are Reform Essence and Light Form. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That's really odd, because of the two, the PB is the one that should go human form. Aside from Essence Boost, its self buffs are either wasted in the form shift or lock you out of forms entirely.
We've got the numbers now, and taking all forms into account, the WS pulls ahead in all categories. |
Then, you have to take into account the mitigation PBs and Warshades have in human. PBs can make it work, but Solar Flare and Pulsar are a bit too chaotic and unreliable to make me say that human form all the time could be the best way to go. Whereas Warshades have more reliable and consistent ways of mezzing while in human form, allowing them to not get mezzed themselves and just focus on damage. In all honesty, my PB gets a lot more mileage out of initiating a fight in one form, then dropping to human (when I know I'm not mezzed) to finish things off with a quick Solar Flare, Radiant Strike, etc., on what is left over.
If anything, this is why I have argued for improvements to Solar Flare in the past for PBs. Warshades get a lot more benefit out of their aoe stun than PBs do (guaranteed Mag 3 over Mag 2 is enormous in how this game works, unless you're fighting stun resistant foes, and there are only so many of those), and that difference makes zero sense to me. I honestly do not know how Castle could see that Warshades needed a little help in Dwarf form and made adjustments to their mire there, and completely ignore the issues for PB Human form powers.
Heck, that almost bugs me as much as how long Burn was nerfed to near uselessness.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Well Double XP weekend is tomorrow and I was considering what to roll for it. I had a peacebringer back in the day and it wasn't so bad but nowadays all I hear is how they're terrible. Can't do anything. Worst class in the game. Waste of time. ETC ETC.
What exactly happened to them? What is so bad about them? I'm just curious because I don't get whats so horrid about them.