If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers....

Caltrops is certainly a very good power. However, at least when comparing ninjitsu to the set it's most often linked to, SR, I think ninjitsu comes off pretty favorably even without caltrops *and* blinding powder.

Assuming scrapper ninjitsu has a cloak of darkness clone in place of hide, the difference in defense between fully slotted nin and SR is only 2.9%. Slotted scrapper sha would be about 20.5 hp/s healing (remember scrappers have higher base HP), so at any incoming damage levels below 20.5/.029 ~ 706 damage per second, ninjitsu takes less net damage than SR does. From some old work of Arcanaville's, an average +3 minion is about 30 DPS, so 700 DPS is more than 20 +3 minion's worth.

In other words, even when surrounded by the aggro cap of +3 minions, ninjitsu with 4 powers is taking less net damage than SR with 6. If scrapper SR is considered even close to acceptable, I think ninjitsu would be ok even if caltrops was replaced by a power that offers less overall mitigation. And only having to fuss with 2 powers (smoke flash is fine), one of which would be a dead easy swap (hide -> CoD clone), isn't *too* much work for a proliferation. It's certainly a *lot* less work than creating a new set.

edit: If the scrapper stealth has hide's default 1.875% def to all instead of cloak of darkness' 3.75% to all, that halves the DPS number to ~350, which is still something like 12 +3 minions. I'll take that.

I think your math is off a bit on the difference in defense between a fully slotted SR and a fully slotted Ninjitsu.

Counting Hide (supressed for roughly 2% Defense across the board)...that's roughly 24% Defense (Nin) vs 33% (SR).

Now that's just with level 50 Common IO slotting, and not picking up other powers or IOs for additional Defense, for a 9% difference in Defense, not the 2.9% you were saying.

IOs and Pool Powers can change the differences on them. Both can reach the softcap (a lot easier with SR), so the question becomes (from a purely non-concept approach) which offers additional bonuses you may want?

SR has higher DDR, Knockback Protection, Quickness and could pick up Aid Self as a Pool Power.

NIN has Psi/Confuse/Fear Resist and a built in Self Heal, but need to grab Accrobatics (or IOs) to cover the knockback (though I feel High Defense covers that a lot as well), but also comes with a few gadget powers some find useful others do not.

Both have +Perception.

I find both sets pretty equal, it becomes a matter of what do I want in that perticular character really.

I agree, as it would be nice, but that's the opposite problem from Ice. Castle tested it and said that he found it way TOO good.

Personally, I feel any tweak that Regen would get to Proliferate it to Brutes would probably end up with it turning out like Willpower. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done, though. I guess the question is whether it would still be Regen, or folks would still insist on getting Regen.

Because to my mind, Batman is not "a sneaky assassin-type who kills though stealth and skill." But Batman IS Ninjitsu. Argue with that all you like, but it's my opinion, and your disagreement is your opinion, and you're not going to convince me otherwise. To me, Batman is the very example of what Ninjitsu is supposed to be.

You might as well claim that Tankers shouldn't get Super Strength, because "If I want to play an angry brutish type whose strength is fueled by anger, I should play a Brute".

Honestly, if the devs did create a gadget-based defense set, combined with personal defense based on skill and dodging, then that to me would BE Ninjitsu, even if it didn't have the powers of Ninjitsu. Like Willpower and Regen, above. And if so many of the powers in Ninjitsu are special BECAUSE of how Stalkers can use them, due to their unique abilities, then even if Scrappers had them they wouldn't be able to use them the same way. Scrappers get Caltrops, (all Scrappers, potentially!) but they don't need the reduced attack rate against foes it gives them as much as Stalkers do.

I tend to disagree, not just because you are using Cloak of Darkness with 3.75% defense to all as a replacement for Hide. Super Reflexes has access to 95% DDR, which is absolutely HUGE as far as real game survivability goes. Ninjitsu with just the Heal and its defense values would fare much poorer in real game situations with the plethora of defense debuffs. The scaling resistance in the passives offers a good boost to overall survivability for SR as well.

And here's the problem with Ninjitsu: it's already very well balanced on a Stalker. Remove Caltrops to add a fluff power and Scrappers get a crummy port. Remove Caltrops to add a different gadget that stands as a decent replacement and Ninjitsu becomes flat-out-superior on Scrappers once they take Caltrops from their APPs.

More importantly, porting skills is probably far more labor intensive than the player base thinks-- certainly not as involved as creating an entirely new set, but not the simple cut and past that takes place on a spread sheet. Any time invested in porting Ninjitsu to Scrappers-- and it would only go to Scrappers as it could never function on Tanks or Brutes-- would probably have better returns in creating a new Gadget Armor set for all melee ATs.

Which is why in the past I would have suggested adding a power that is currently available in a Stalker APP. That's not possible now, since Scrappers already get those APPs. Although I suppose Caltrops could be replaced with Physical Perfection, since that's what Stalkers get in their Weapon Mastery instead of Caltrops. (Eh, no, that would duplicate Body Mastery. So we're back to Quickness or an Endurance boost or the like)

As I said above, though, ALL Scrappers can take Caltrops right now. If it is that much of a benefit to Defense based power sets, then why aren't all Super Reflexes and Shield Defense Scrappers taking it? And keep in mind that the only difference between Stalker and Scrapper defense is their hit points. They get exactly the same defense numbers. So if a Stalker can increase his survivability by keeping foes fleeing from him, so can a Scrapper.

Perhaps there are two explanations for this. One is that a Scrapper's higher hit points means that he is less likely to be one or two shotted by a foe that is balanced for his level. This means the Scrapper is more likely to be able to survive and use his heal to recover. Or, perhaps that it is just that the Scrapper does not WANT foes fleeing from him, as his skills are not based around taking out foes one at a time, and thus he depends more on keeping his foes in melee, where he can finish them off more handily.

Either way, I don't think the loss of Caltrops will have as dramatic an effect as you seem to believe. The self Heal IS powerful -- as long as you can get it off. A Scrapper would have about a 10% better chance of doing that.

By that logic, NO Stalker should EVER get any new Defense or Melee sets which are created for the other meleers. That always involves changing skills, to at least as much as an extent as it would involve changing Ninjitsu for Scrappers.

Of course, that's likely the very reason Scrappers didn't get Shields. They did get Kinetic Melee, though, in the latest issue. So I don't think there's that much of a cost in time. Not enough to justify the devs never considering for Proliferation a set that will require tweaking.

I would say that to remain consistent with Hide, I think the 3.75% Defense in Cloaking Device or whatever the replacement is called should suppress. Personally, to make up for this I would have the base radius of the stealth be 45 feet, with all but 15 feet suppressing during combat. This would help Scrappers get closer to melee with the foes without alerting them, and even help with Blinding Powder. (assuming they get that power)

I see...I was using Stalker Defense numbers for NIN vs SR.

But your right NIN for Scrappers if Hide was replaced by a Defense Toggle would put NIN closer to SR numbers (like a 3% Defense difference between SR and NIN using lvl 50 Generic IOs).

I still think the differences in the two sets would play a difference. And there's plenty of people who would easily take Quickness, higher DDR, Knockback Protection, and the Scaling Resists, over NIN's benefits.

I think it would be a good trade off myself. And still think NIN should be ported over.

Heh, yeah, I did want to add that I had thought of a concept based on something like Gauntlets or Bracers to replace Shields on Stalkers. Then again, I also suggested that as one of the replacements for Caltrops. I don't know if you could make a Bracers concept complex enough that it would be added to the arms by the power set and "extended and retracted", like a shield is when it is taken out.

An alternative might be just a small shield, or a Buckler. Ninja Blade is smaller than Katana, even though IIRC they do now share the same customization choices. The Stalker could add a buckler and bracer combination to the shield arm, or even both arms for an unarmed Primary.

Yes, I'd say that Batman is a heroic Stalker - MA/Nin, with the alternate animations that use punches. He certainly behaves like one, taking time and striking when and where it will hurt the most. You don't like the word "kill". Okay, replace it with the word "defeat", "arrest", or whatever you like.

Of course, you could also make the argument - and it has been made on these forums in threads that pop up about it - that Batman would be MA/WP with lots of temp powers.

*shrug* Ninjitsu implies training as a ninja - not the use of gadgets while dodging; there is a distinct connotation as "spy" and "assassin" in the term. If you want someone who is good at dodging and uses a lot of gadgets, then take SR with weapon mastery and pick up some temp powers.

There's also the whole "Tankers were there before Brutes ever existed" counterpoint... and I stated before powerset proliferation ever came about that I'd rather see side-switching and keeping some powersets unique to some ATs rather than copying powersets to everyone; it just serves to homogenize things - which is the reason I wanted something other than a damage buff for Defenders. But I'm also willing to admit that there's a bit of contrariness to it as well, due to the blind eye towards the balance issues that Stalkers have compared to the far more popular melee ATs.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Ninja's do damage. Ninja's get in and take down that hard target.

Stalkers can't do that.

Hence, Scrappers are ninja's!

Sneak in (Stealth) then smack that target around untill they're defeated!

Not something Stalkers can do well at all.

Yeah, you could say they get in and take down their target in one hit, but we know that will never happen.

Lets try this.

Stalkers have the most damaging attack in the game that does not come with either a massive recharge or a huge downside.

Downside: must be done from stealth (or right after placate), can be interrupted.

If the stalker AT needs one power set to save it over its different game mechanics. Then the AT is lost already. Port nin over and make all stalkers into scrappers. No sense to offer an AT if no one wants to play with the merits of that AT.

The Stalker At needs to have it's mechanics fixed to actually be relevant for end game teaming content. Because it's mechanics suffer, the AT can't actually stand out on it's own. This has Ninjitsu standing out more than the Stalker them self. Allow the Stalker to stand out on their own first, then you can port Ninjitsu wherever you want.

There can occasionally be powers with similar purpose, but overlapping powers does not happen. The devs intentionally designed it that way, and in some cases altered the porting of the Epics/Patrons to the other side to eliminate any duplication. Or, altered a power in a main Set they Proliferated. (i.e., Energize)

There are NO duplicate powers currently in any Epic or Patron Pool. Likely Caltrops would not be made available to any Scrapper for this reason. (In any Power Set, not just Ninjitsu)

I would have a little /nerdgasm and roll up a number of characters I would love to try out. I think the set is fantastic and has a lot of potential, but cannot stand the way that stalkers play.

Stalker mechanics are not that bad for teaming. They have a high crit chance with controlled crits and a nice debuff. The only problems with teaming are the sets that lost their only aoe for AS. Other then that it tends to be the players fault they do not work as well on teams, with players that think they should just scout missions or should only focus on AS.

Elec/EA stalker on an ITF last night. My primary didn't lose any of its AoE potential. Far from the optimal team, but there was a force fielder, so my stalker was softcapped and then some.

The shield/SS tank was doing more AoE damage than me (and he can't double stack his rage), and the energy/fire blaster was surviving longer.

Something's bloody wrong with the AT and how it performs in teams.

I'm really beginning to agree with this, despite the vast changes that were made to the Stalker AT recently. The most bothersome for me is that it takes 4 players to be within 30 feet of me while on a team to roughly equal the AT damage modifier of a Scrapper (1.1+0.12 vs 1.21).

Then there is Assassin Strike, which I have tried to use primarily for concept reasons. The problem is that I am more useful employing Throw Spines from hide than using Assassin Strike. When I do want to Placate->Assassin Strike, it tends to both get interrupted and feel underwhelming; the net animation of those two skills is over 5 seconds, which means that big tasty number is easily surpassed by most Brutes and Scrappers that have been simply hammering out an attack chain.

If I could change anything, I would suggest that Assassin Strike employ a mechanic that Arcanaville suggested for Martial Arts: the increased critical chance found it Eagle's Claw on Scrappers. When a Stalker chooses to employ an Assassin Strike, no other AT in the game should have higher DPS or burst damage against that target. The problem is that burst damage isn't just about a single massive strike, it's also about layering damage during a buildup phase, which Scrappers are flat out superior at doing. I would like to see Assassin Strike grant a period of increased critical chance following a successful Assassin Strike from the hidden state, something along the lines of 30% for 5 seconds.

I have also noticed that Burst from Kinetic Melee has a 100% chance to critical from hide-- which makes the skill incredibly fun to use, but no more potent than Foot Stomp on a Brute that can be spammed without consideration of Hide/Placate. If it works for KM, why shouldn't it be applied to at least one AoE attack from the other stalker primaries? (And yes, this unfortunately does nothing for the primaries that lack any AoE attacks...)

Replace Grant Cover with Hide.

Trade Phalanx Fighting with Block!, a Shadow Meld type buff that improves defense for a short time with a relatively quick recharge.

Switch Against All Odds with Strike!, a passive that grants a Frenzy-like buff after using Block!

Done.


Or you *COULD* make a devices character that dodges by picking SR and using the Weapon Mastery Pool (and look! you get caltrops!). Or even better, make a *REAL* devices secondary and port it to all the melee ATs.

The way I see it, if you're dead set on a conceptual set being ported to a non-thematic AT (Ninjutus for Scrappers), then you can port both ways. Give Stalkers a decent version of an offensive set (Fire Armor/Shields) or a set better designed with Stalkers in mind (Ice Armor with some tweeked powers).

You want Ninjutsu? Fine, then don't be selfish. Support some ports to Stalker that offer them tactical/offensive edge.

*looks at the last prolif Stalkers got: Broadsword*

*waits for something that's actually different from what we've had forever*

Look at it this way: If you were a Scrapper with Spines, how much less ST damage would you be able to accomplish without the option of Assassin's Impaler?