If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers....
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-18 11:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
No. Not even close to a good idea, and would take way too much effort on the devs part. Just give them a Cloak of Darkness clone. Stealthy, little defense, but not a hide.
The real problem with porting the set is Caltrops, since the power is duplicated in weapon mastery.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
i would like to see something that has to do with physical training or Chi since all ninja's use this and its something that takes a great time to build up and make stronger or possibly meditation
Quote:
Switch Caltrops out with a S/L Passive Resist power and call it good!
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No. Not even close to a good idea, and would take way too much effort on the devs part. Just give them a Cloak of Darkness clone. Stealthy, little defense, but not a hide.
The real problem with porting the set is Caltrops, since the power is duplicated in weapon mastery. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
You mean like the heal, the mez protection, or the Tier 9?
|
Originally Posted by Switch_NA
i would like to see something that has to do with physical training or Chi since all ninja's use this and its something that takes a great time to build up and make stronger or possibly meditation
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Come on, you don't want to double (or triple or quadruple) stack Caltrops? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No. Not even close to a good idea, and would take way too much effort on the devs part. Just give them a Cloak of Darkness clone. Stealthy, little defense, but not a hide.
The real problem with porting the set is Caltrops, since the power is duplicated in weapon mastery. |
Quote:
My mastermind doublestacks his proctrops. I'd love to have even more, but the issue is the devs have a thing against duplicate powers. I can't really blame them.
|
Originally Posted by Failsight
Come on, you don't want to double (or triple or quadruple) stack Caltrops?
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Well, someone is a Naruto fan... :P|
Originally Posted by Kokoro
If Ninjitsu were ported to Scappers, what would you replace the "Hide" power with?
Personally, I would like to see the following. Decoy: Create a number of decoys that look like you and mimic your actions. These decoys, however, do very little damage and serve only to distract your opponent. These decoys are very frail, and when hit by the enemy, turn into log stumps. Mechanics-wise, I imagine something like Gang War (from the Thugs Mastermind power set), except that each gang war member looks like you (we know having NPCs that look like you is viable, due to the dopplegangers we see in Alignment missions), be really wimpy (kind of like Gang War already is), and have very little health. Sure, they won't live long, but they can serve as a distraction for enemy alpha-strikes and such. Just a thought. -Kokoro |
It'd be a cool power, but not to proliferate in this set. As others have mentioned, replacing hide with a "stealthy" power works just fine. Caltrops is the real issue, and isn't so easily replaced. Adding in Mental Training might work, or might be OP'd.
Quote:
Maybe add +HP as well.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Switch Caltrops out with a S/L Passive Resist power and call it good!
|
I'd also think about changing Smoke Flash to a PBAoE Fear effect. Smoke Flash as is would technically work for Scrappers but in general a Placate effect is probably less useful to them than a Fear effect. Plus having a fear effect makes it more practical to port the set to Brutes/Tankers.
x2 on something like a CoD clone or other already extant stealth from any secondary, the one from /EA perhaps?
I'd replace caltrops with something else from a classic bag of ninja tricks. Not sure what that could be though. A net based immob is too easy, and well, dissappointing.
Maybe borrow from shield charge: a "sudden appearance" type of power where you port yourself in, and a pseudo-pet tosses an AoE stun or something. Like a "holy crap, where did he come from?" power? Minimal dmg, if any just to keep the set from being OP.
An inverse escape power would be cool, but would basically be a plain Jane teleport?
I suppose it would be more fitting to pull caltrops and smoke flash and replace them with more ninja magic based def/res toggles or passives - but I'd see the various tricks stay in place if possible.
Smoke is another one that is probably problematic. If it doesn't placate what point would it serve? -acc and -percp?
Other ideas?
Things I Would Do To Ninjitsu If It Was Ported To Scrappers:
Hide becomes a cloak of darkness clone, minus the immob protection and +per as /nin already has those.
Caltrops has to go, of course, since it's already in weapon mastery. I'd personally replace it with a gadgetey-type power rather than a passive or whatnot, just to keep the theme going. My choice would be a sleep dart - moderate duration/recharge ST ranged soft mez with -defense and -damage debuffs attached. Useful, but nothing too overpowering or essential (imo the set is strong enough already, so gotta be careful not to give it anything *too* good).
Finally I would reorder the first 4 powers as: Ninja reflexes (1) -> danger sense (2) -> sleep dart (4) -> stealth (10).
Smoke flash doesn't need to go, at least not for scrappers (tankers, on the other hand, might have issues). Placate is already available as an IO proc and in some temp powers, so it's not like it needs to be a stalker exclusive effect - remember, there's a difference between 'placate' the status effect and 'placate', the stalker power that inflicts this effect and also sets you up for a critical. You can inflict the 'placate' status effect totally independently from any bonus critical mechanic. It'd also be a possibly useful but definitely skippable power, which I think is a good thing to have in any set. Finally, it's thematic as heck - why would only evil ninjas be able to disappear in a puff of smoke?
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Id actually roll a scrapper..
Those that know me, know how truly BIG this is...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Agreed. And mentioned before on the subject. However, people keep saying, why would I want to lose aggro. And the suggestion of dont use or pick the power seems to escape them |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Things I Would Do To Ninjitsu If It Was Ported To Scrappers:
Hide becomes a cloak of darkness clone, minus the immob protection and +per as /nin already has those. The power moves to level 10, Caltrops has to go, of course, since it's already in weapon mastery. I'd personally replace it with a gadgetey-type power rather than a passive or whatnot, just to keep the theme going. My choice would be a sleep dart - moderate duration/recharge ST ranged soft mez with -defense and -damage debuffs attached. Useful, but nothing too overpowering or essential (imo the set is strong enough already, so gotta be careful not to give it anything *too* good). Finally I would reorder the first 4 powers as: Ninja reflexes -> danger sense -> sleep dart -> stealth. Smoke flash doesn't need to go, at least not for scrappers (tankers, on the other hand, might have issues). Placate is already available as an IO proc and in some temp powers, so it's not like it needs to be a stalker exclusive effect - remember, there's a difference between 'placate' the status effect and 'placate', the stalker power that inflicts this effect and also sets you up for a critical. You can inflict the 'placate' status effect totally independently from any bonus critical mechanic. It'd also be a possibly useful but definitely skippable power, which I think is a good thing to have in any set. Finally, it's thematic as heck - why would only evil ninjas be able to disappear in a puff of smoke? |
Moving Hide and renaming it to Ninja Stealth (or some such) and replacing Caltrops is all that really needs to be done I would think.
I just think replacing Caltrops with a S/L Resist Passive is the easiest route.
Could make it a PBAOE (or targeted AOE) mag 2 hold called Itching Powder or Flash Grenade or what have you, just as easily. Wouldn't have the same effect as slowing and ticking away at all targets, like Caltrops, but the mag would be low enough to be minion only.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers...
Nobody would play a stalker ever again
I really don't think that Scrappers need ANOTHER positional defense set. At least not yet. I think that porting something like Ice or EA over, a typed defense set, would make more sense.
Especially because it seems like Ninjitsu would step on /SRs toes something fierce.
Quote:
I would. |
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers...
Nobody would play a stalker ever again |
Dark Armor and Energy Aura both have stealth in them, and in fact, Tankers can currently have stealth, so I don't see the problem with Scrappers getting a nice gadget-based Defense set that includes some sort of Cloaking Device. It obviously can't be Hide, but Scrappers wouldn't Critical on a power that put them into the Hidden state or Placated anyway.
The only issue I have with Blinding Powder is that with only a 25 ft range it would be a bit riskier getting into range to use it than Smoke Grenade. You could get into range with most Lts having a visibility of only about 15 ft, but it would be close. I think the Scrapper having a melee orientation and the additional advantage of the Confuse would balance that, though. However, Smoke Grenade would be too strong to stack unless you took the -perception out of Blinding Powder, and I would honestly prefer not to do that. So I think it should be one or the other.
I don't see a PROBLEM with Smoke Flash, (note I'm talking about Smoke Flash now, not Smoke Grenade) but alternately it wouldn't be that useful to a Scrapper either. If he needs to high tail it out of melee he can just run for it. A momentary disorient or sleep might be useful, though, either to pull foes off an ally or to give the Scrapper some damage mitigation like Smoke Flash. I would just replace it with a PBAoE called Sleep Gas.
That leaves Caltrops. Honestly, since Caltrops is a power in a Scrapper APP, I want to take its replacement from a Stalker APP. However, Scrappers now get those anyway, and there's really nothing there but holds and a sniper attack. A Web Grenade would also overlap the APP, and a Wide Area Web Grenade, as much as I'd like the idea
would be to overpowered, I think. While I'd like it to stay a gadget, the only other things I can think of are Taser (remember, it would have a 20 foot range, so sort of a complement to Sleep Gas) or something like Poison Trap. Quickness has also been suggested, and while I've heard some say that might be overpowered, I'm not sure I agree.
I suppose my most off the wall suggestion would be a sort of offensive aura, like Against All Odds, which would increase End recovery per foe in melee and debuff their damage. The damage debuff would function similarly to the scaling resistance in SR and represent you using your arms or bracers to deflect attacks. I came up with this some time ago as a way to give SR a little more mitigation and might be good for Ninjitsu now that SR has the scaling resistances and Defense Debuff resistance.
Quote:
I like this, too, although it seems more like a single target attack. It would be somewhat different from Web Grenade, as it would lose the -recharge but gain the knockdown. And would be pretty unique if it was just knockdown and not knockback.
|
Originally Posted by Gearsinger
It could be fun to replace caltrops with bolas, which could act as a ranged knockdown and immobilize.
|
....I would have one less reason to consider rolling a stalker.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Quote:
First, I'm of the opinion that Scrappers should never get it - if you want to use the set, make a Stalker. Some sets simply don't need to be ported, and it's not like Stalkers get every armor set, either.|
Originally Posted by Kokoro
If Ninjitsu were ported to Scappers, what would you replace the "Hide" power with?
|
However, on the occasion that the class that already has more damage and more survivability whines their way into a defense set that was designed specifically with Stalkers in mind, I'd replace it with Mask Presence (40' PvE suppressing stealth and 1.875% defense to all with scrapper modifiers) so that it at least behaves similarly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Stalkers have both SR and Nijitsu.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I really don't think that Scrappers need ANOTHER positional defense set. At least not yet. I think that porting something like Ice or EA over, a typed defense set, would make more sense.
Especially because it seems like Ninjitsu would step on /SRs toes something fierce. |
In any case, Ninjitsu is not a purely defense set. It has Defense, Healing and Control. In many ways it is a Defense based version of Dark Armor in that it has lower than normal passive defenses but makes up for it with some control powers.
Quote:
I see this a lot, and every time, I have to wonder, *why*? What's the point in wishing *against* more options? It's not like the ability to make a /nin scrapper would suddenly somehow make /nin stalkers any worse. There is literally *no* downside to the players from making this option available, so why *not* do it? Archetype choices are *not* a competition, so there is no need to restrict things to 'win' players for an AT. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
First, I'm of the opinion that Scrappers should never get it - if you want to use the set, make a Stalker. Some sets simply don't need to be ported, and it's not like Stalkers get every armor set, either.
|
And just saying 'play a stalker' misses the point. I don't want to play the set on a stalker, because I don't want to play a stalker. (And to head off the next argument, not because of any perceived balance issues, but more because I'm not interested in the signature stalker mechanics.)
Quote:
| However, on the occasion that the class that already has more damage and more survivability whines their way into a defense set that was designed specifically with Stalkers in mind |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Quote:
Scrappers have both shield defense and SR though.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Stalkers have both SR and Nijitsu.
In any case, Ninjitsu is not a purely defense set. It has Defense, Healing and Control. In many ways it is a Defense based version of Dark Armor in that it has lower than normal passive defenses but makes up for it with some control powers. |
...
If scrappers get ninjitsu, give shield def to stalkers! (WITH SC intact)
Quote:
This.
|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers...
Nobody would play a stalker ever again |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Wow. Just wow.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
First, I'm of the opinion that Scrappers should never get it - if you want to use the set, make a Stalker. Some sets simply don't need to be ported, and it's not like Stalkers get every armor set, either.
However, on the occasion that the class that already has more damage and more survivability whines their way into a defense set that was designed specifically with Stalkers in mind, I'd replace it with Mask Presence (40' PvE suppressing stealth and 1.875% defense to all with scrapper modifiers) so that it at least behaves similarly. |
Why would you want to limit concepts that work just fine. It's not like Ninjitsu on Scrappers will have it beating out the other sets.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
If Ninjitsu were ported to Scappers, what would you replace the "Hide" power with?
Personally, I would like to see the following.
Decoy:
Create a number of decoys that look like you and mimic your actions. These decoys, however, do very little damage and serve only to distract your opponent. These decoys are very frail, and when hit by the enemy, turn into log stumps.
Mechanics-wise, I imagine something like Gang War (from the Thugs Mastermind power set), except that each gang war member looks like you (we know having NPCs that look like you is viable, due to the dopplegangers we see in Alignment missions), be really wimpy (kind of like Gang War already is), and have very little health.
Sure, they won't live long, but they can serve as a distraction for enemy alpha-strikes and such.
Just a thought.
-Kokoro