If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers....

Empathy has be proliferated, it was done before release, since it is not a defender only set. The devs felt empathy was fit for controllers to use, and they let the AT's share it. The same with it's counter pain, the ATs it fit for got it.

Ice armor has never been excluded, the closest thing is the devs said it interfered too much with brute fury, and that was before the latest change to fury generation. Just because it has not been proliferated yet does not mean it is excluded.

Summon/assault/manipulation/eats sets don't count, since they are unique AT sets. They share powers where fit, but no exact port fits for other ATs. Now if you want to count these then every stalker attack and defense set is unique, since there is not another AT with the exact same sets.

We only have 5 sets that are fit for proliferation that have never been done. Ice/Ice from tankers, nin, ill, and poison, well more if you consider whip and energy rifle from MMs. Every other set has been proliferated in one way or another. I don't see it taking too much longer for these last few to be as well.

Okay, now use Aid Self while moving. That *is* kind of what Ninjutsu is about...particularly the non-static positions unlike Stone, Willpower and Invulnverability. Or did you want to just stand in one spot and hit buttons? I kinda sorta have to move about when I play my DB/Nin Stalker to line up cones and get at foes that are moving around on my caltrops (I really need to finally respec out of that power...)



It's actually nice to hear how people build there characters in general. As an aside, I tend to lack a concept until I visit the costume creator of open up Mids'. I generally start conceptualizing how their powers work, look through pools that I'm interested in or the costume pieces I find 'click' together then start forming the character from there. I have no list of 'performance powers' or 'concept powers', I just have the build and the look. After getting both the look and theorizing how their powers work and interact with eachother, I make their backstory and then from there it differs from character to character.

It sounds rather limiting making a list of 'musts' and 'wants'. Occasionally I'll just say 'hey, I haven't used the concealment pool. that'd totally could work like blah blah blah' then shift around the build to fit it. And I can usually work another angle of the build or cover over the loss of some other power with IOs. In the case of dropping one of the passives for confront, that's if you cannot swap anything else and if not, you'll be losing some passive resists but you can cover over the lack of defense for a position by swapping some IOs around to cover it.

Well, it'd have to be a pretty crappy/situational gadget or you'll surpass Ninjutsu on the AT it was created for. No, you'll probably get some sort of throw-away/utility passive instead.



My apologies. The way I tend to write, I use words and heavily direct their meaning through context. That is, don't try reading too deep into the extra meanings because I've most likely forgotten/ignored them in favor of particular meanings, specifically:


elitism - 1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority
2. (A) The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

So yeah, I'm leaning toward the entitlement version of the word. Entitlement that one must have the best defense, the best version of the heal, the best recharge, etc. and anything that gets in the way of this mentality must be removed.



The difference is, I'm not trying to make a bad argument. I'm making a logical argument. And I've used multiple points to argue the issue. The thing is, I haven't really read much opposition to the direct points I brought up:
-Theme. Ninjutus is about guerrilla warfare and spying. Explain why this fits a Scrapper who themselves have expressed how upfront and in-your-face their style is. What Scrapper wants to run and hide? And even if a Scrapper does, they don't get as much from it. The style of the set does not support the style of the AT and the theme is a mismatch.

-Proliferation. Tends to be on a whim of the devs. If a set doesn't fit, has balance implications or like above does not support the style of the AT, it tends to get backburnered...that's as good as never proliferating it. The same things happen to sets like Regen Brutes, SS Scrappers and Shield Stalkers. For balance or theme reasons, these sets will see resistance and Ninjutsu is no different. Conclusion: If Shield Stalkers are a no-go, I can imagine Ninjutsu Scrappers sitting in the same boat.


To put it plainly: SR+weapons *IS* equivalent to a Scrapper /Nin built for the only reason that /Nin isn't available for Scrappers. No, it's not the same as a /Nin Stalker but then are you willing to give up a chunk of your HP and slightly lower DPS for that equivalence? If not, and not to sound rude but, I honestly don't *care* about the entitled equivalence you expect.

Sure, flip the argument about me feeling entitled to AoE and damage sets for Stalkers but that's to address a particular balance concern of the playerbase that feel the ATs damage is lacking. Not because I think Stalkers need to do more damage but because there is no option available to compromise defense for offense like the other damage dealers. I guess if there was a balance concern between /Nin stalkers and /SR+weapons scrappers, you'd have to prove to me there is a large enough gap in survival to warrant this proliferation.

Honestly, I don't really care for /Ninjutsu. What makes Stalkers unique to me is their style and that style feels more important than to the Scrapper or Brute. Once you start thinking in terms of style, it bleeds into performance (that is, I feel it makes performance better).

That said, what makes Ninjutsu so special? Well, it's on an AT that fulfills the concept of the set. What would make Ninjutsu ninjutsu if the style or tactics of a ninja never come into play? I'd rather a modified Gadget set created instead since it seems all that is desired here is a gadget using Scrapper. Then, at least, you could figure in a concept for a gadget using Brute or Tanker.

Nah, I move around too, but the interrupt period is only ~.7s with one interrupt enh, so since you can move after the interrupt period is over, it's short enough that I don't mind stopping to use it. I'm not trying to say that it's not a drawback, just that when you're softcapped it's not *much* of a drawback.

I actually like hearing about that sort of thing as well. For me it's an optimization problem. Generally a character starts as a powerset combo and then grows a concept (although occasionally vice-versa) as I develop the build and costume. Then I decide exactly how I want the character to turn out build-wise, and it becomes almost a mini-game to see how I can satisfy that within my chosen power and cost constraints. I probably spend as much time in mids' as I do in-game. It's just how I enjoy making characters, I really find it hard to get into them if I'm not satisfied with how their powers will develop.

As for dropping a passive, I probably could make it work, I'd just rather not. I tend to operate on much more limited budgets than most of the melee power builders, though, so covering the loss would actually be a bit tough. The loss of the DDR and passive resist would probably be more painful, though. Arcanaville once showed that the passive resistances don't scale linearly; having 3 is about twice as good as having 2, and dropping from 95% DDR to 85% would really hurt. In that particular contest, confront loses since it's more of a 'just for fun' power than a 'concept' one. Having room for it would really just be a perk.

I'm not expecting anything super powerful, certainly not more powerful than caltrops. Although I would definitely consider caltrops worth taking in that spot if I were making a character with the stalker version of the set, so unless it's truly crap in comparison I would still probably take it. A passive is certainly another possibility, I'm just hoping it's not.

It does sound better that way, although I'd still wonder a bit - it doesn't sound like you're actually trying to be derogatory, but 'entitlement' still carries some negative connotations, at least to me. Min/maxing is definitely a 'straight towards the goal' type mentality to be sure, though, and if that's all you're after I'd agree.



I respect your right to think this way, but I really have to disagree. Having a stealth doesn't mean you have to use it to run and hide, and if a stealth doesn't fit the concept of scrappers I don't think dark armor would have one. I'd have a much harder time figuring out how to justify the set for brutes, but even they get a powerset with a stealth.

The only thing that really seems like running and hiding would be smoke flash, and if it works the way I think it does, I think I could even possibly find a combat use for it - correct me if I'm wrong, but attacking only breaks the placate effect on the target you hit, right? So could you use this in the middle of a spawn and then beat a few of them up while their buddies stand around picking their noses? Cause that'd be totally hilarious.

Overall, I guess I just don't see a disconnect between being a tricksy little ******* and being a scrapper. Certainly, they're generally in-your-face fighters, but I don't usually see them as being stupid. Scrapperlock aside (which is an issue with the player, not the character ), I don't see my scrappers as turning down anything that could let them win the fight (especially the natural-type characters the set would be so nice for), and that's what I'd see the problematic parts of scrapper ninjitsu as - a set of dirty tricks useful for *in-combat* misdirection and disruption of the foes, not a set of tools for running and hiding.

Put this way, it makes a bit more sense - I think I may have been misinterpreting you slightly. That said, I don't necessarily think that this is the way it'd have to turn out. There definitely are problematic sets, but it seems to me that the issues tend to fall more into mechanical areas than conceptual ones - the only clear-cut conceptual ones I remember were emp/pain and stalker shield. Specifically, though, I'm not aware of them saying *anything* about scrapper ninjitsu one way or the other. Given that in the past they've often mentioned when sets might be problematic, that strikes me as a good sign.

On the other hand, while I don't remember them saying anything specific about stalker shields either (which might just be a function of not having been in that beta), we do know that they specifically passed up the chance to give it to them when it was the only thing on the docket. Meanwhile, all we really know about scrapper ninjitsu is that, out of quite a few armor sets available, they haven't chosen it for proliferation so far. So, while stalker shields seems to have received a definite 'no' (which I think is silly, but that's for another time), there doesn't seem to be any real hints about the dev's attitude towards scrapper ninjitsu either way. It *could* be on the back burner, but I personally hope not, and I don't think there's any real evidence for it.

SR + weapons is indeed the closest you can come to a /nin scrapper for now; I just really wouldn't call that equivalent. In this context, 'equivalent' for me would be using the 'functionally identical' definition, which I wouldn't call it. And I would still be giving something up to get it; 95% DDR, a recharge bonus, extra slots and sets that have to go towards softcapping, the passive resistances, and native KB resist, to name a few.

And while I might not be giving up the HP and base damage, even if I was there *would* still be some upsides. Whether they are enough to balance the negatives or not, the increased crit rate and semi-controlled crits are still tasty, and AS + demoralize is still a useful tool. Believe it or not, I would be more than happy to give up the HP and base damage, if a lot of the upsides I was getting in return weren't bound up in a playstyle I don't care for. I just don't want to give up the HP and damage and get *nothing* (mechanically speaking, since those are mechanical issues) in return.

Can Stalkers get Ice Armor/Melee in return?

Hopefully soon, especially since hide suppresses offensive toggles.

I've got to admit the next Proliferation I want to see for Stalkers is Ice Armor. I think it would be cool to see a Stalker fade out of sight, and be replaced by a transparent ice statue. That then kills you.

The Ice Sword could even be used for the Assassin Strike for the melee, or even just an ice spike.

I really want some cool animations for AS. I feel they could have done a lot more with Energy Melee's. Electric's is nice because when you hit the target, there's all this zappy stuff everywhere coming off the target.

For Ice Melee, I'd rather a version of Frozen Touch where you just reach out to the target and encapsulate the target in a huge case of ice that quickly shatters. Could make it pure cold damage too (something not in any other stalker set tho).

That or either the target having their insides frozen and spikes of ice jut out of the target. Thinking about said animations on a target that'll go down in 1 hit, it'd look particularly devastating to freeze a target in a block of ice which shatters and the target completely vanishes, leaving only shards of ice on the ground...*shivers*

For Fire melee, I want an *EXPLOSION* of flames and embers all over! Or maybe turning the target black with patches of orange-red lava or something.

Hide becomes a CoD clone, and Caltrops become Smoke Grenade. That's just my opinion.
Or, Caltrops becomes Mental Training and /SR is never rolled again.