If Ninjitsu was ported to Scappers....

If the word comes down that scrappers will never get ninjitsu (like stalkers and shield), that's probably what I'd do. In fact, I've got about 12 different versions of that powerset combo that I built up in mids before I decided I'd rather have ninjitsu. However, when ninjitsu fits the concept so much better than SR-with-weapon-mastery, I'd rather have the appropriate set. Given that I'm assuming caltrops would be replaced by another gadget type power, going SR instead of ninjitsu cuts out 3 of the 6 gadgets I want, and all in all I'm much more satisfied with the builds I've come up with that use ninjitsu.

What I don't understand is why everyone is so quick to dismiss ninjitsu on scrappers as 'not thematic'. The combo of evasiveness and tricks seems a broad enough one to encompass many concepts, not all of whom are assassins. I think people are getting too hung up on the whole 'ninja = assassin' motif.

And I'd certainly support stalkers getting more proliferations and any balance tweaks they need. The fact that I don't care for the playstyle doesn't mean I wish the AT or its players ill. I am personally for proliferating every single powerset to every applicable AT.

I think stalkers should have gotten shields (I can hide if I'm a glowing ball of energy, but not if I carry a shield?). I would be fine with stalkers getting fire armor/melee. I would be fine with them getting ice armor/melee. I would even be fine with them getting stone (in fact, I think it'd be *hilarious*). I would proliferate ice sets to brutes. I would proliferate illusion to doms. I would proliferate kin and rad to MMs. I would even proliferate pain and emp to the opposite sides (the thematic argument is a joke now that GR is here). I would proliferate absolutely everything, because I believe that it's up to the *players* to decide if a powerset and AT combo thematically matches the character they have in mind. If sets have to be adjusted for balance, so be it, but proliferate the darn things already.

The same way everyone is so quick to dismiss Shields and Fire Armor on a Stalker as 'not thematic'.

Hell, BAB even admitted to Fire Armor using smoke as a means to conceal when the idea of such a concept was brought up if one needed the justification. But you'll still get the 'aDUUUR Har Har a sTAlk3r purrin' gas 0n h1ms3lF hur Hur HUR!' responses.

So in the meantime, I'll just laugh in your face you don't get Ninjutsu

Thanks.

I'm agreeing with you and that's the response I get?

What the hell is it about this issue that everyone only seems to be opposed to the proliferation out of spite? Sheesh.

Memo to the general population: this is (nominally) a cooperative game. Being opposed to improvements for other ATs does nothing to advance your own pet cause.

Cause spite seems to be the only reason sets aren't proliferated (for the most part). Why don't I have Fire Armor Stalkers? All you need is to change Burning Aura into Hide. Is it because Fiery Embrace + BU + AoE crit is just that tastey? No, it can't be that >_>

So, the solution to other people's poor behavior is to mimic them? That's a really productive attitude. I have never thought that 'because everyone else is' to be a good reason for doing *anything*, ever. In this case, it's downright laughable.

I'm glad you're not in charge then, I'd hate to see the sort of game that'd result from that mindset.

Lol what do you want me to do? Pat you on the back and just agree to you getting Ninjutsu on Scraps? It's not like what I say actually has an impact on the dev's decisions (in fact, I'm inclined to believe I have the power for the devs to do the exact opposite of what I suggest so you might be getting /Nin for scraps in one of the next 2 issues).

I just find it particularly funny how much bad rap Stalkers seem to get (even though they're not really bad) yet you guys have no qualms bleeding the AT of the only thing unique to them...and this is coming from a Stalker player that has exactly *1* /Nin Stalker and doesn't really care much for the set at all!

If I were in charge, every AT would have every applicable powerset but the actual powers of the sets would be different for all of them. So that means, Blasters would also have Dark Blast but only share probably 3 powers from Defenders and 3 with Corruptors while the other 3 powers are unique to them.

Every combo would be unique and not simply the AT mods/inherent. It would actually be *difficult* to decide if you want to make a Super Strength Tanker or a Super Strength Brute. While an Electric Melee Scrapper and an Electric Melee Stalker would have the generally same direction (-end and sleeps with KD and stuns), they also have unique elements that favor their AT's style.

All in all, I hated the idea of proliferation because of the way they approached it: the easy way. But now that it's done, I still find I dislike how they're dishing out the sets: whatever is easiest. While Tankers and Scrappers get something new and flashy (electric melee) and Brutes get something insanely effective (claws) Stalkers got stuck with whatever was easy (Broadsword...a copy of what they already have...wooptie doo!!).

Now we're sitting on our thumbs, waiting for the next prolif. I'm not going to be the one holding you back from getting Ninjutsu, but I'll still be laughing if you expect it any time soon. After all, it's not even close to being as easy to prolif as something like Energy Aura (which is what you'll most likely get). But hey! You'll probably get Energy Melee too!

On the flip side, there's really nothing crappy left to proliferate to Stalkers. What's left? War Mace? Battle Axe? Ice Armor? Fire Armor? All those are simply awesome and offer lots of possibilities.

So I say, bring on the proliferation. But I'll still be here laughing at all you Scraps when it's revealed what you (don't) get.

Couldn't care less about pats on the back, but as for the other part, if you can't come up with a *good* reason why not, then yeah. Spite don't count.

And stalkers having a bad rap has exactly *what* to do with scrappers getting ninjitsu? The thing that doesn't make a damn bit of sense about all of this is that scrappers getting ninjitsu does absolutely *nothing* to harm stalkers or their players. It's not like only one of the ATs can have the set at a time! If we all woke up tomorrow and found that scrappers had gained /nin overnight, stalkers would still be *exactly* the same as they are today. Again, archetypes are not a competition.

I don't expect to get ninjitsu next either, as energy aura *is* the fairly obvious low hanging fruit. But that doesn't make me want it any less. And the fact that (thank god) you aren't in charge of proliferation choices doesn't make it any less stupid to **** on the fun of other players out of some misguided sense of AT loyalty.

It's all about favoritism. I don't like it. That you can't be arsed to make a particularly viable choice (play Stalkers or play SR Scrapper with weapon mastery) due to favoritism. That, if I woke up tomorrow and Scrappers gain /Nin and the other ATs got nothing due to favoritism.

I honestly can accept Stalker's bad rap (because I know what one can do) but if attention is paid more to other ATs or downright ignoring one, I will make my malfunction apparent.

Yeah, AT loyalty and not AT equality...I'm going to go play my Inv/KM Tanker now. See ya

There's a difference between favoritism and simply wanting to play an AT I enjoy playing. Favoritism would be gloating over the fact that scrappers get shield and stalkers don't. Favoritism would be advocating that stalkers shouldn't get ice/ice just because scrappers don't have them yet. Favoritism would be laughing at stalkers if they got another subpar set in proliferation. Sound familiar?

I just want a /nin scrapper because I think I would enjoy playing one more than I would a /nin stalker or a /SR/weapons scrapper. That's not favoritism, that's simply going where I think I would have the most fun.

The difference? Favoritism seeks to put other players and ATs down. I'm not doing that. If you think stalkers need balance fixes? Fine by me. Want better sets proliferated to them? Awesome, I'm all for it. Accusing me of some sort of bias simply because I enjoy playing one AT more than another is stupid.

And in regards to scrappers getting /nin and everyone else getting nothing, don't be silly. If they do more proliferation, they'll do it for everyone, just like they did in the past. The point of my example was to say that scrappers getting ninjitsu wouldn't somehow take something away from stalkers, not to suggest that scrappers should get nin and nobody else should get anything. Why the heck would I suggest that, when just a few posts back I advocated proliferating everything to everyone?

Again, don't be silly. I'm not assuming you play nothing but stalkers. I'm talking about the apparent need you feel to 'defend' stalkers by putting down scrappers. It's that ridiculous philosophy I'm objecting to here. AT equality is fine with me (though not for you, I'd have to guess).

Check the definition of Favoritism. It has more than one connotation. AFAIC, there isn't a huge reason to be hungry for Ninjutsu. It's available and built for Stalkers so any Stalker you make with it will perform quite well. But you can't be bothered to play it just because you enjoy another AT more? Reasonable excuse except Ninjutsu isn't much different from SR +Weapon Mastery. The only unique things you'd lack is Blinding powder (its main advantage being it's an opener that doesn't notify the enemy while stealthed...kind of lost on the Scrapper mentality) and Smoke Flash (yeah, not that many Stalkers even take that power).

The only real reason I could gather for Scrappers wanting Ninjutsu is for the heal. Favoritism, meet a related term: Elitism. But hey, if you want your min/maxed characters, who am I to stand in your way. I'm just saying, if you *really* wanted Ninjutsu on your Scraps, you can simulate it aptly right now. I can't really simulate an offensive set like Fire Armor or Shield Defense on a Stalker.

Then stop taking it as a personal attack. I'll say what I want and I may or may not pull a name out of the thread to direct my words at. If I happen to not point out someone, it's in the general sense of the accusation, not the poster themselves.

Get it? Players have and will point at armor sets for Stalkers like Stone, Shields and Fire and say 'Lol howz th4t wurk?'. And if you think I haven't tried explaining concepts to make them work, then you should have seen my Strike Gauntlet thread which was basically a Stalker-fied Shield Defense suggestion. Not that I've given up explaining, but I feel justified in countering the theme of ninjutsu for Scrappers just by it's very definition (look up Ninjutus. It's japanese guerrilla warefare and espionage. Neither relate to Scrappers. If a character did, they'd actually be a Stalker.)

OK, I'll bite. If you *weren't* intending to accuse me of showing unfair bias towards scrappers, exactly what *were* you intending to say? (And to take care of the other common definition for 'favoritism', no, scrappers aren't my favorite AT. That'd be doms.)

Take a look at what you wrote:

Emphasis mine. That paragraph was placed directly below a quote of me, and the bold elements directly reference what I was saying. You were talking to me. If you don't want people to take things as personal attacks, then don't make personal attacks.

The reason to be hungry for ninjitsu is that it fits what I want to do with the character better than SR+weapons does. I can vaguely simulate it, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer having the real thing. And yes, I enjoy another AT more, and despite your choice of words, there's nothing wrong with that.

The SR version of the build already had aid self, which is, numerically, actually somewhat superior to sha (it of course pays for that with a long animation and a higher end cost, but it's at least as good overall), so I wouldn't be gaining a heal by switching. In fact, I don't actually expect the /nin version of the character to actually be significantly stronger than the SR version - even once they're both softcapped, the /nin version gets extra tricks and is a slightly looser build, but the SR version gets quickness, native KB resist, the scaling resistances, and immunity to debuffs. Mechanically, there's very little reason to favor one build over the other. I don't want /nin for min/max performance reasons. I want it for all of the little fun bits like smoke flash and room to take confront.

And I find it amusing that somehow people who try to min/max are now automatically elitists. Rather a broad brush there, I think.

And for the last time, what the heck does this have to do with scrappers? Again, how does other people's close-mindedness somehow excuse you for doing the same thing? I'm sorry you can't think of a conceptual reason why someone might want a /nin scrapper, but I fail to see why that should hold me back.

It was in regard to the thread itself although I suppose it could extend to those that share the same viewpoint I'm speaking up against. If you don't fit those descriptions then congrats, stop thinking they are aimed at you.



Don't forget being interruptible.

You just explained why you wouldn't need Ninjutsu. The downfall is that it's not as loose to fit in superfluous powers like confront? You can easily skip a passive, lowering your defense to 1 position (probably putting you in the ballpark of real Ninjutsu) to pick it. Done and done.

So you don't need caltrops, or the heal and if you really need the AoE placate, there's a temp power that has the exact same stats.

I guess if you *really* want Blinding Powder, that's the only real reason it's needed so much, right?

Yes, you have to have an elitist mentality to min/max. If you're aiming to cap defense or HP, you can do that by modifying the performance to be better with IOs, inf, accolades, etc without min/maxing. To min/max, you specifically disregard superfluous parts to achieve maximum effect. That is to say, one can make a build with recharge in mind or capped defense and things, but you're going to have to min/max for *all of it*.




Is it so hard to accept that I'm just playing the opponent of Scrapper Ninjutsu? It has been stated just how unneeded the prolif is since it can be nearly duplicated with a special build and how it isn't thematically in line with the AT.

So why proliferate it, again? Because you want it bad enough, I suppose. That hasn't really worked for me getting Shields for Stalkers, tho.

You know, I enjoy reading your posts, and know that on the boards things can get misconstrued. But if you're trying to say that anyone who wants Ninjitsu proliferated is an "elitist," I feel you should take a minute to cool down and rethink your position. If that is not what you are trying to say, I would clarify what you mean with a different choice of words. I've often been guilty of posting like a Real Housewife of Paragon City myself, so I understand how words sometimes come across. But I don't think anyone is in an inferior moral position because he or she wants a particular powerset on their favorite archetype.

Slightly off topic, but this is why I've long maintained Stalkers should have built in -Regen (and possibly also -Heal) in their attacks. I feel like the reason they never got it was because of PVP. Now that that's no longer an issue, it would be nice if the game's assassins were actually sought after when the team needs to, like, kill someone.

Eh, it'd be useful for a limited situation of facing AVs and GMs. EBs usually don't cause much concern once you get to the point of surviving much of what they'd throw at you (popping a tray of reds and then just AS > attack chain > Placate > AS > chain will usually end those fights quickly). I wouldn't turn it down but frankly, I feel it's unneeded and somewhat unfair considering Stalkers are a damage AT among other damage ATs who all need to be competitive for that team spot.

If Stalkers had a 'switch' that changed that 2.8x dmg AS into just base 1x dmg but added a substantial debuff, that'd at least mean you want another dmg dealer to keep the DPS+Burst going while the Stalker keeps the target debuffed. Summary: Stalkers shouldn't be a dmg dealer AND a debuffer, just one or the other.

Personally, I'm of the opinion of giving Stalkers the same edge the other melees have: AoE and offensive buffs. The sets with good/best AoE are generally the sets Stalkers don't have. Looking at stuff like Mace, Super Strength, Ice, Fire and armors like Shields and Fire which provide offense would help the parity of the melees more than you think.

Though the removal of AoE options for stalkers may very well be intentional. I'd think it's more likely for control-based sets (and especially those which focus on single-target controls) to be proliferated to stalkers. I could see stone (sans fault), mace (sans whirling mace), super strength (sans handclap, rage reduced to build up), fire melee (sans breath of fire), and ice (sans ice patch) to be proliferated though. Fire aura is unlikely to be proliferated, and Shield would likely lose AAO if proliferated.

/opinion

Agreed on Stone, Mace, SS and Ice. As for Fire melee, there's the option of using either Tanker FM or Scrapper/Brute FM. With Scrapper/Brute, it has Cremate which *could* be a candidate for exchange as even though it is a ST attack, it is a pure DoT attack which is counter to Stalker's burst mentality (and works against Placate) but the other likely candidate for exchange would be Fire Sword Circle which I wouldn't want to be dropped.

But for Tanker FM, the set has 2 PBAoEs, Combustion being he likely candidate for exchange for AS since the set usually drops a PBAoE and Combustion is pure DoT. I'd prefer Tanker's version.

As for Fire Armor is actually the *most* likely to be proliferated. It's the easiest. Considering what the AT usually drops for Hide (damage aura then utility), all you have to do is drop Burning Aura for hide and you don't have to rebalance the set for any loss in survival (because you actually gain some). Vs the other possible set, Ice Armor, you'd probably lose Icicles but then Stalkers can't have repeats of powers and Hibernate would need to have something done to it since it's available in their Patron pools.

As for Shield defense: I already made a write up of a set called Strike Gauntlets (it'd still have the customization for shields but you'd have the option to just have heavy gauntlets too) which exchanged 3 powers (Phalanx Fighting, Against All Odds and Grant Cover) for 3 new ones.

-Hide (duh)
-Block! (a click defensive buff like Shadow Meld but with a shorter duration and smaller +def buff)
-Strike! (a passive +ToHit buff & gives a frenzy-like buff (Frenzy for Stalkers gives them a dmg buff and puts them back in hide) whenever you use Block!)

The set wouldn't have the sustained DPS as the other melee's SD but it would still have burst dmg capabilities as well as defensive burst capabilities over the other ATs. It's a fair trade and I could make another thread with the write up if you're interested.

You need to work on your phrasing then, because I have a hard time seeing how else I was supposed to interpret that set of remarks, placed right under my quote, directly referencing things I said, and without any disclaimers about general audiences.

Yeah, I just didn't think it was too important given the assumption of soft capped characters. 1 interrupt slotted aid self is pretty reliable if you're softcapped, leaving the long animation and end cost as the main downsides.

I think I need to explain the way I build characters. I am trying to get both mechanical performance *and* conceptual appropriateness. When I make a build, I look at the powers available and make two mental lists: one which contains all the powers I think I should have for best performance, and one which contains all of the powers I want for fun or for concept. I then identify overlaps between those, and try to figure out how I can best fit them both in.

Therefore, I'm not going to drop a passive for confront, because that's just exchanging a power in one list for a power in the other. And I'm sorry, but unenhanceable, duration/use limited temp powers are no substitute for *real* powers. The attraction of /nin is that, with that build, I *can* fit in all of the powers I want from both lists. WIth the SR version, I can't. I'm just as loathe to sacrifice performance for concept as I am to sacrifice concept for performance.

And don't forget - the scrapper version of ninjitsu won't have caltrops, and I'm operating under the assumption that it will be replaced by some other gadget/trick style power I'll be wanting. So the SR version is down 3 thematic powers compared to the /nin version, even before you account for 'for fun' powers like confront.

You've just explained why min/maxing is necessary for top performance. You haven't explained why you need to be an elitist to min/max. And the commonly accepted definition of 'elitist' is rather derogatory, so I'd suggest you think carefully about your wording here.

As far as I can tell, in 'playing the opponent', you're essentially mimicking the bad arguments often advanced against stalker proliferations. I get that. What I don't get is why you think it's relevant. If you know they're bad arguments, why do you keep bringing them up? And I *agree* with you on the stalker issues, so I don't see why you feel compelled to belabor the point, especially since it has damn-all to do with the topic.

And as to the proliferation being 'unneeded', let's turn this around a bit. At this point, the default dev view seems to be that *everything* is going to be proliferated eventually, unless there's a reason not to - note that when something might actually be problematic enough to cause issues, they've been careful to say so - such as empathy, or sunstorm's notes on dark sets for blasters/controllers/doms.

So, since proliferation is the default, enough asking for reasons *to* proliferate /nin. Give me a good reason *not* to, one that has nothing to do with stalker balance issues. Also note that the devs don't seem to care about 'uniqueness' either, given that their earlier proliferation has already involved the last formerly 'unique' sets (ignoring set types that can't be proliferated because that AT is the only one who uses them) from defenders, scrappers, brutes, doms, and corrs.

And I know this post wasn't directed at me, but I want to comment on it:

It is true that the SR + weapons build is somewhat similar to a /nin build. That doesn't, however, mean is is *equivalent* to that /nin build, and I have yet to see a good reason why I *shouldn't* be able to use the set that actually *does* fit what I want. I don't *want* to have to put up with the rough edges, and I don't *want* to have to sacrifice several thematic and/or fun powers such as the 3 /nin gadgets and confront, and you haven't given any good reasons why I should be forced to. It isn't a question of 'why'. It's a question of 'why not'.

All right, I bowed out of this thread some time ago, and I don't really feel like keeping this going, but I do want to contradict this. I mean, I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I certainly am not going to claim that min/maxers don't feel they want Ninjitsu for Scrappers because it's going to be better than anything else. However, I personally don't want Ninjitsu for Scrappers for that reason, and I believe that's not even going to prove to be true, anyway.

My reasoning is more basic. The whole idea of Proliferation is that all ATs will eventually gain access to the Power Sets that they are capable of using. Mastermind Summon, Blaster Manipulation and Dominator Assault sets, of course, won't be Proliferated, because no other ATs share them. That still hasn't stopped conceptual Proliferation, like Mental Manipulation and Earth Assault from coming to Blasters and Dominators anyway, but I technically don't regard that as Proliferation. The point is, except where there have been clear implementation problems with bringing a set to an AT, like Ice for Brutes, the Proliferation has happened.

So my question then becomes, what makes Ninjitsu so special that it gets to be the ONLY Power Set that is exempt from Proliferation? As you say, "You're taking away the one thing that makes Stalkers unique". Well, what is the Power Set that makes Scrappers unique? What is the Power Set that makes Defenders unique? What, for that matter, is the one single Power Set that makes Blasters, Dominators or Masterminds unique? If those ATs are unique, they're unique for a set of Power Sets, not a single one.

Ninjitsu is not SR. And there's no more reason to want Ninjitsu for Scrappers than to want Ice, Stone, Energy, Super Strength or Battle Axe or War Mace for them. And no less reason, either.

Defensively, Nin won't be a universally overwhelmingly better set, but it will probably supercede SR in a majority of areas. Outside of psi, Invuln will still have advantages in certain areas, especially when you can soft-cap it. Shield will still be the AoE monster, with Fire having some interesting aspects on single target (due to FE having a base damage increase rather than a damage buff). Willpower will still mature into one of the toughest all around sets. But Nin will probably be almost as easy to soft cap in strong invention builds, plus have a heal, plus have toxic and psionic resistances. SR will have recharge and slow res in quickness and the scaling resistances for all but toxic and psi. Even if you took Hide, Caltrops, and Smoke flash and literally threw them away and left the slots empty, Ninjitsu would be a strong competitor to SR, Willpower, and Invuln. That's eyebrow-raising.

That's not a specific reason to not port it, but its definitely something to think about. Its entirely possible that the reason it was given defensive mitigation and a strong heal *and* exotic resists - something that was unique at the time and is still an anomaly today - was because low health was its actual weakness. In stalkers.

I don't believe anyone has ever said that Empathy or Ice Armor are excluded from Proliferation. They have not been Proliferated to specific Archetypes, yes, but NOT from Proliferation in general.

Empathy pretty much can't be Proliferated because there are no more applicable Hero Archetypes left that DON'T have it. And two Archetypes do have it, so it is not unique to either. Ice Armor could easily be Proliferated to Stalkers or Scrappers, and I have never seen any redname post that says they will not be.

If you are looking for the Power Sets that are still, currently, unique to one AT, they are Ninjitsu, Ice Melee/Armor, Illusion Control, and Poison. Any one of those could find their way to at least one other AT, although in the case of Illusion Control, there has been some talk of converting it to a Mastermind Primary. Note that in order to include any other sets, you have to introduce additional criteria, like limiting it to only blue side or red side ATs, or trying to include Power Set types that no other AT shares.

Well, by that logic Pain Domination isn't being Proliferated either, even though both Corruptors and Masterminds already have it. But again, there is a big difference between a Power Set being excluded from Proliferation to SPECIFIC Archetypes, and being excluded from ALL Archetypes but one.

I actually still disagree with the devs' logic in creating Pain Domination, and it's even more questionable now that we can have Defenders and Controllers who have side switched to the Villain side. However, my point still stands that BOTH Defenders and Controllers have access to Empathy, and have shared it since before Proliferation even came about.

If you want to argue that only villains should have Ninjitsu, fine, but I don't think it fits Brutes conceptually as well as it fits Scrappers. I also would rather not create a counterpart to Ninjitsu, as was done with Empathy, if it is only to be given to one AT, or Ninjitsu left with one AT.