Quote:
Sorry, but I think you are misremembering. Here are the Patch Notes regarding Bases from the 12/3/08, Issue 13 debut:|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Part of the reason Raiding (& pathing) was turned off was because they tried this solution, and it failed epically.
There are no "simple" solutions for bases and base raids. Sorry for the threadjack. . |
Quote:
|
Bases All Supergroup Base room prices and Prestige costs have been rebalanced. Rent has been substantially changed. Rent is no longer charged on a per-plot basis and is instead charged on a per-item basis for certain specific items. Rent Items include all Storage, Empowerment stations, Medical auxes and 2nd or 3rd tier Worktables. It does not include basic Worktables, basic Medical, Control, Energy or Transport items. Refunds for Base Plots, Base Rooms, and Base items will be issued if the price has changed. Players must enter the base before a refund is generated. All base crafted items now use invention salvage. Base Salvage should only be needed in recipes that convert base salvage to invention salvage. Base Salvage no longer drops. Base raiding is currently being redesigned, and will be in that state for some time. For the duration, all base raiding, including instant raids, will be disabled. Removed all raiding related restrictions on placing items in a base. Specifically, items may now intersect and or completely block door to door paths or door to item paths. This change will allow much greater freedom in placing objects in your base. When raids are enabled again, players will be able to choose whether their base will abide by the new raiding-related restrictions. |
They removed raiding simultaneously with the change to pathing and stated that SGs wold be able to chose whether to raid or not when raiding was re-enabled. So it did not fail epically, it was never tried. And even if it was, "instant" raids were always consensual. Both SGs had to agree to engage in a raid.
So, with that in mind, would you still oppose raiding if it was entirely consensual?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
Actually, part of the problem is a personal pet peeve of mine that most of the "percentages" in this game are not percentages. "+60% accuracy" is meaningless. "+35% defense" is meaningless. "+20% tohit buff strength" is meaningless.|
Originally Posted by BurningChick
Uhhh ...
Hmmm ... I think it got tricky by % number 5. So, really ... DR is even more complicated than I gave it credit for  |
Well, it has meaning to me, insofar as I know what they mean, but what they say is both mathematically and intuitively incorrect. When math says you're wrong and human instinct says you're wrong, unless you're making a game for fish you're probably wrong.
DR takes the additional leap of having no intuitive combinatorial. Which is to say, if I ask you what a "5% buff" does, intuivitely I expect you'd say it makes something five percent bigger. And actually, a 5% intrinsic accuracy buff does that. Its like the only thing that does that. a +5% damage buff does not do that. A +5% damage buff increases damage by five percentage points which is something completely different. Its like if you're paying 5% interest on your mortgage, and the bank says they will lower your rate by 20%, you don't think the rate will become negative 15 percent. You think it will drop to 4%. But in CoH, a 20% reduction is almost always twenty points subtracted from the phony percentage value.
But that's only a small intuitive glitch. 5% buff to resistance is also a five percentage point increase in resistance, not a 5 percent increase. But it is, if you started with 85% resistance, a 33% increase in survivability. That's intuitive if you live in a hyperbolic reality I guess. That's a big glitch.
DR adds an additional tier of abstraction which I do not approve of: you can't even guestimate what a 5% buff will do, unless you do trig in your head. That's a really big glitch.
Just to present a simplified example - I'm not recommending this specifically - suppose I were to say that the DR effect for damage buffs was such that *approximately* for every +100% buff you had, an additional buff on top of relatively small size would be worth about half as much. So a 5% buff would be worth "about" 5% at zero, "about" 2.5% at +100%, and "about" 1.25% at +200%. The precise formulas to implement that would be not simple expressions. You would need to have some skill in math to compute them. But an intuitive explanation would exist. Simple math does not equal simple explanation and vice versa: the equations for tohit and defense have nothing but addition, subtraction, and multiplication in them, and most people *still* don't have a complete grasp of it. Ironically, I believe the best compromise between a workable DR system and one that had a reasonably accurate intuitive explanation would probably have very complex equations to fit those requirements.
And the one group of people we're not supposed to care about are the quants. If someone wants to calculate the numbers of the game, they're volunteering to do math. So they should go learn some. The people who don't want to calculate, don't need precise numbers, but are willing to function with close guesses, those are the people we are supposed to care about. The quants are supposed to serve them, not the other way around.
This is an issue that goes far beyond DR, and far beyond PvP. And I wish I knew how to fix it. You know how Real Numbers shows accuracy as "x1.4" and not "+40%"? That's because the devs got tired of hearing me cry over it. But I don't think I can whine my way into a better resistance equation or DR curve.
As I said: pet peeve. And I've been moaning about it to several generations of CoH developers and players by now.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Dear fattie with a gun,|
Originally Posted by Positron
DR is a tool that gives a lot more flexibility to designers when they are creating powerful effects. Without it, PVP would just come down to who can buff the fastest to get off their killing blow.
I understand a hatred towards DR, as it really does monkeywrench a lot of builds, but it does give the Powers team a lot more flexibility in what they are allowed to create. |
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits.
How ******* retarded can you be?
If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly...
...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing.
and you guys are lazy.
and that's why I'm not resubbing.
go back to killing boars in wow.
******* pve-er.
f u,
black barrier.
Quote:
=D
|
Originally Posted by badBarrier
Dear fattie with a gun,
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits. How ******* retarded can you be? If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly... ...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing. and you guys are lazy. and that's why I'm not resubbing. go back to killing boars in wow. ******* pve-er. f u, black barrier. |
Quote:
yawn
|
Originally Posted by badBarrier
Dear fattie with a gun,
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits. How ******* retarded can you be? If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly... ...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing. and you guys are lazy. and that's why I'm not resubbing. go back to killing boars in wow. ******* pve-er. f u, black barrier. |
Quote:
Epic post.
|
Originally Posted by badBarrier
Dear fattie with a gun,
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits. How ******* retarded can you be? If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly... ...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing. and you guys are lazy. and that's why I'm not resubbing. go back to killing boars in wow. ******* pve-er. f u, black barrier. |
Quote:
Epic barrier.|
Originally Posted by badBarrier
Dear fattie with a gun,
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits. How ******* retarded can you be? If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly... ...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing. and you guys are lazy. and that's why I'm not resubbing. go back to killing boars in wow. ******* pve-er. f u, black barrier. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Galactor
yawn
|
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
screen capped
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CaptainAmazing
How interesting he comes in here and you are hostile to him. I can't imagine why you don't get more posts from devs in PVP threads ^^
-C.A. |
Captain Amazing is totally right about this, Posi has a shiny red name. We should suck up to him, excuse him for everything and stop acting like we're paying him to fail at his job.
I pay my 15 a month, same as everyone else, but solely for pvp. So fix it.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
You can post whatever you want within the boundaries of the rules, but generally speaking calling people names usually does not get them to do what you want unless you have the force of arms or physical might to back it up -- which no one can really do on the Internet.
Then again, there have been lots of even-tempered, well reasoned PvP posts requesting change that have been equally ignored. So *shrug* I guess it doen't matter either way.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
Proof that the mods don't come here.
|
Originally Posted by badBarrier
Dear fattie with a gun,
How retardedly lazy are you? It makes zero sense use archetypes as the common denominator for setting DR limits. How ******* retarded can you be? If you wanted to level the playing field, I shouldn't be able to get as much defense on a (now useless) /sonic controller as say compared to a /ff controller. And that means you need to index DR curves first to power sets, and secondly... ...to team size. Not a science. We suggested it about 25,000 times during i13 beta. But your team is bad at this whole "making a game for pvp" thing. and you guys are lazy. and that's why I'm not resubbing. go back to killing boars in wow. ******* pve-er. f u, black barrier. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
yup
|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Proof that the mods don't come here.
|
Quote:
:/
|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Proof that the mods don't come here.
|
barrier lets rsf
pay for my account.
i'm using the money i'm saving on a brazzers subscription.
Quote:
Honestly alot of us dont care about giving fexiblity to designers. We would rather have fun. Pre DR PvP was fun. Post DR it was not. You lost customers and many of us that stuck around no longer pvp or only do so very little. So with all this flxibility, what powers has the powers team created for PVP since I13? Nothing has been created, only modified based on DR. It would seem that if anything DR created more work not less.|
Originally Posted by Positron
DR is a tool that gives a lot more flexibility to designers when they are creating powerful effects. Without it, PVP would just come down to who can buff the fastest to get off their killing blow.
I understand a hatred towards DR, as it really does monkeywrench a lot of builds, but it does give the Powers team a lot more flexibility in what they are allowed to create. |
Your job is not to make your job easier. It is to create a game that is fun for people so they will continue to pay you money to play that game. DR failed at this.
You said haste is a myth or impossible, but your wrong, I have done it many times. 
Quote:
I think one of my issues with DR as it effects resist/def is this, |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think an example would be helpful here. Suppose you had an actual power that buffed you with 35% defense. In PvP that would be reduced to about 17.0%, assuming you had no other defenses running. But suppose you had a power that buffed you with 21.875% defense, and you had slotted it with +60% enhancement, for a total of 35% defense. In that case, the +60% enhancement would be reduced to 54%, which would then reduce the power to only 33.7%, and then DR would hit that to 16.7%. The difference is usually small, but it can throw numbers off if you do not know how much of the value is due to enhancements buffing a base value, since DR hits enhancements first, then the total second.
Also, those calculations were for a blaster. For a scrapper or tanker 35% (base) would be reduced to 27.5%. In general, stalkers, scrappers, brutes and tankers have weaker DR curves for damage mitigation related attributes. Squishes have steeper curves. Now, what would it be if you had 35% defense from a couple of slotted powers, plus some set bonuses that are not enhanced. That's when it gets tricky. |
lets take a electric armor scrapper and a SR scrapper( and lets ignore elude here), lets assume for a momment due to slotting and set bonuses, they have identical def values outside of PvP, they enter PvP. They have identical def values. The SR gets no break for the fact that a higher proportion of their def is based on actual powers rather than set bonuses. I guess what I am saying is this, having a defense power should push the point out where defense DR hits, having a resist power should push out the point where resist DR hits and so on
Quote:
You're preaching to the choir. There's a solution to this problem in theory, but not one I've been able to convince the devs to investigate seriously.
|
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
I think one of my issues with DR as it effects resist/def is this,
lets take a electric armor scrapper and a SR scrapper( and lets ignore elude here), lets assume for a momment due to slotting and set bonuses, they have identical def values outside of PvP, they enter PvP. They have identical def values. The SR gets no break for the fact that a higher proportion of their def is based on actual powers rather than set bonuses. I guess what I am saying is this, having a defense power should push the point out where defense DR hits, having a resist power should push out the point where resist DR hits and so on |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
People when you log in to Left for Dead, Halflife, Battlefield or any of the popular FPS games are you REQUIRED to understand the use of calculus to play?
No, you jump on shoot stuff and as you go you learn how to shoot, buff and tactics.
This game's PvP is god awful. It was merely bad before. Look through these posts and ask your self whether you EVER saw someone crunching numbers on how to use a flyer in Unreal?
No, they discuss where to go - what to do when you get there but the player figures it out - shoot a rocket and do damage, use machine gun do a little less damage, use a heal pack or medic and fix damage.
There is NOTHING that is obvious or intiutive in this implementation. I said once YEARS before and I still mean it - have a PvP server where you get unlimited market use and auto-level to 50 even if it's the Test server and people will learn, adapt and enjoy it because they can port/create a character kit it out and roll being able to change it's slotting or IO's at any time. All for fun and with no impact on their main characters.
Or as I have said here an AE with the ability to control powers, maps and affects. Then we suit up 2 - 8 man teams and off we go! Capture the flag, Escort, Mayhem or any other concepts people can design.
I really think the Devs took a wrong turn and said we must make the rules for PvP. New game designers EXPECT the gamers to modify the PvP and find ways to GET INVOLVED with the games.