DR effects at haste

Hey Arcana,

I think you're over-thinking my suggestion. I was thinking of a simple slider that would convert, for instance, 35 def into what you'd get post-DR. The mechanism would not pull up numbers from your individual powers. Or from anywhere. Or break def down by type. The user would just adjust the slider over to 35 and the UI would spit back how much def you'd get post-DR for your particular AT. It would be really, really basic, but would give clods like me an understanding of what the effects of DR are, if not the underlying mechanics.

I fully understand that trying to get the game to spit out what happens when Healing Flames stacks with Insulation would be ... ummm ... difficult, but even having a rough guide to DR would be good.

Umm you might want to analyze what i was talking about with the 1.8%, I was stated that I was refering to pvp and no one who truly pvps goes in to a pvp zone without at least being very close to soft capped defenses. So no I do NOT get 11.9% out of them unless the target has absolutely no defense slotting and if they have no defense slotting 11.9% will not even be noticeable anyway.

As usual I forgot to be overly specific for the number types. Long story short, while I agree DR has its place it simply is over done in this game. It renders most buffs useless.

ummm....this is not true at all...

You never did base raids did you.......yes the origional idea was to have base raids as forced pvp. You wanted items of power, you had to fight to keep them. However that was implemented for like 2 hours or something silly and then it was taken down due to an exploint. (not sure how long it was up but it wasnt long).

After that base raids became an optional game mode that honestly had no real point other than they gave you a scenario to play through with added mechanics other than simply who got the most kills won. Also you seen alot of interesting stratagies that simply are not possible on the current pvp arena maps (primarly because kill count is the only way to win).

When the raid was complete all your stuff was still in your base. Anything destroyed during the raid was restored to the way it was. So it had no effect on someone who wanted nothing to do with pvp other than "Oh noes i cant put my bookcase exactly where I want it" Sorry i just find it frustrating that you an admited PVE player who has no use for pvp is posting in this forum when you did not have all the information.

So basicly they removed a game mode that truly allowed you to use your base something for.....wait for it......the abilite to stack stuff easily.

Simple solution would be to give each group a choice. While base building you choose to build with pvp or pve settings. If you want to stack items your base can not be used for pvp raids. Obviously there would need to be a system where you could see what was blocking you from flagging your base for pvp so that an group could switch back and forth as they desired. Not really a big deal since there is nothing that has to be protected, if there was this would allow people to make an unraidable base to protect an item of power. But as I said moot point since they dont exist.

Long story short though is just because pvpers are the minority does not remove their rights. I am not a die hard pvper, never will be but before they decided to take them away I organized regular base raids with the group I was in. The pve players actually greatly enjoyed them as well even though they hated zones (so do i actually)and there was no way i was getting them into an arena heh. The entire group was rather dissapointed when after the patch we went to do a base raid and it wouldnt work. When I looked at the patch notes and discovered they were disabled I actually was rather irratated. I played for about a month more, got bored (since I no longer had my pvp outlet) and canceled my account and took a two month break. When I returned the group was virtually disolved since they had nothing else to do but farm and farm task forces. Money out of the companies pocket. I know base raids being removed cost them money. I would bet that it cost them more than being able to stack items in the base made them money.

Also pvp with an actual point other than who got more kills is alot of fun and actually gives a reason to have a base right now they are rather pointless other than glorified trophies and vault space.

For me that is what this games pvp lacks the most of. There really is no point to it. Pvp here is nothing more than a gigantic pissing contest. There is no point to it. Pvp IO drops are so rare some people think they are a myth. Why not expand the pvp drops to some of the other IO sets. Maybe put in a mechanic in a zone like RV that has control points where the more points your faction controls the better quality loot you ll recive for a kill as well as a higher chance of actually reciving it in the first place. Some games actually have pvp effect the pve enviroment as well. If red side controls 75% of the RV then red side gets a 10% experiance buff. If 100% of the zone make it 20% xp buff or heck cut those values in half, find something else I dont care but give people a REASON to pvp.

You give players a reason to pvp more will actually do it. Ya it is horribly broken right now but if there was a reason to do it they would and when you get people playing it you ll get new fresh ideas on how to improve it. Someone might even be able to fix it who knows. None of that will happen though unless there is a reason to pvp. For me, I hate farming, I enjoy task forces and I do enjoy pvp but even having that base of pvp enjoyment I will not waste my time on what is now pvp. So now I play for a couple months and get bored and take a couple months off (money im not paying you guys). Used to be when i found the regular grind boring i went and did some pvp, no longer though.

Im not really an AE fan. To me its just another tool to farm and quite frankly ive seen some shockingly bad content (not nessesarly farms) rated high even awarded while good content gets no votes (usually because its difficult).

However somethign I have always wanted in this game was pvp missions and maybe you hit on the idea of letting us use AE to do this. You know instead of beating up on the genric bad guy at the end of the mission and escorting them out have people cue up for a pvp mission. One side has to rescue/destroy a target. Escort missions would give the defenders one last chance to respawn and take the target back.

Anyway there are lots of good ideas that have been bouncing around for years. Pick one......any one (of the good ones heh) and imo only good things can come of it.

You forgot to mention it would suck. Ever play a kin in pvp (the old pvp). You had to work to maintain your buffs. Making them degrade would make it pointless besides why should someone have to play only half of their toon. We have a primary and secondary for a reason. Degrading buffs would just mean you wouldnt have time to attack and would do nothing but stare at hp bars and chasing people.

This is why, no offense, I find it frustrating when people refer back to the numbers people for this stuff, sometimes you have to think past the raw data and how it should work and actually consider how it does/will work. The numbers people are why pvp is where it is now. They came up with DR and adamantly refuse to relook at the numbers because numbers can not be wrong. No matter how many players it drives away. Yes pvpers are the minority. However most players, even the pve ones will eventually bore of the game and try pvp. Once they discover how bad it is and that there is nothing left they will leave.

So pvp is the minority but its people are constantly changing as the old ones leave and new ones join. Then the cycle repeats.

They fail to realize a lot of things. One of which is that PvP 2.0 blows.

no it wouldn't.

it didn't before. it won't if you took dr out altogether. it's more of a challenge to keep said buffs up and not who can buff the fastest.

personally i think the hate for DR comes from the sheer inconsistency in how it effects what buffs, how you (the devs) never released anything about what the numbers were and that it's values make no sense at all; not because it simply exists. along with afew other things, such as the lack of support to change anything about the system, and pvp as a whole, when everyone, including you(the devs), know its imperfect, shown by the fact that including this post and the post GF had about CoP not bringing back base raids, its been years since a dev has posted in these forums.



also, lolsig

In actuality, she is not over-thinking the suggestion, it is that complex. To simplify what she's saying DR affects attributes and the way it affects them is different per attribute, and per archetype. Secondly, DR affects your enhancement slotting also, so for a complete calculation, you'd need someone's exact build.

You are not without hope though. There has already been an explanation made (by Arcana) which will allow for a basic understanding of the fundamentals of the DR mechanic. Additionally there is a graph that you can add the appropriate parameters and get a rough estimate of the numbers (my apologies, I don't remember who created this). This should be able to get what you want from it, if you take the time to try to understand Arcana's post.

Arcanaville's Guide to Diminishing Returns
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...598#post794598

Diminishing Returns Graph
http://yarrison.org/dr/graph.html

I've been thinking about writing a guide putting the collective community information in one spot, but its a bit of work that I don't have the desire to commit to at this point in time.

I think an example would be helpful here. Suppose you had an actual power that buffed you with 35% defense. In PvP that would be reduced to about 17.0%, assuming you had no other defenses running. But suppose you had a power that buffed you with 21.875% defense, and you had slotted it with +60% enhancement, for a total of 35% defense. In that case, the +60% enhancement would be reduced to 54%, which would then reduce the power to only 33.7%, and then DR would hit that to 16.7%. The difference is usually small, but it can throw numbers off if you do not know how much of the value is due to enhancements buffing a base value, since DR hits enhancements first, then the total second.

Also, those calculations were for a blaster. For a scrapper or tanker 35% (base) would be reduced to 27.5%. In general, stalkers, scrappers, brutes and tankers have weaker DR curves for damage mitigation related attributes. Squishes have steeper curves.

Now, what would it be if you had 35% defense from a couple of slotted powers, plus some set bonuses that are not enhanced. That's when it gets tricky.

For SOME players.

Not all.

With that said Positron's post clearly confirms for me AGAIN that they really didn't understand pvp before they introduced the horrid I13 system. And they still don't.

Running, Evading, Kiting,are as much legitimate tactics as engagement. Forcing people to engage in combat was a bad idea to begin with.

Remove TS, Scale back DR and Mez entity flags and give us back our slow effects.

What made this game great was that it played more like a FPS than your traditional MMO.

With that said I am all for buff degradation if done correctly. It makes sense. HD makes absolutely no sense.

^^This. OMG i'm agreeing with VEX someone put me out of my misery.

I always forget that part. Fortunately for you, the devs didn't take my advice and implemented DR instead. There always has to be a winner, and a loser. I lost, you won. Gratz.

I also lost the fight to eliminate heal suppression, to replace movement suppression with a different mechanic, to tweak Elusivity per powerset rather than use a blanket 30% value, to replace base resistance with archetype-specific +health and normalized (reduced to normal) regeneration, to add arena options to disable all PvP changes, and to consider launching PvP changes with cross-server PvP to soften the shock of all the changes. Aren't you the lucky one.

(Yes: I suggested every single one of those things to multiple developers and producers. I probably would have fought harder for them if if wasn't for the fact that my number crunching ignorance disqualifies me from having a valid opinion of PvP.)

I think we all lost.

Thing is, though, that really only happened (happens?) at the beginning of a match. You hung back a bit, got some buffs tossed out, and maybe if one of your Blasters was feeling ambitious they'd try and run in and get a nuke off on the other team right away, hoping for a quick first kill. Once the match actually got under way there was no gathering for buffs - buffers needed to be able to be all over the place making sure their teammates stayed buffed all the while often becoming targets themselves.

The post-I14 buff period instituted before each match means there's not even an opportunity to get a quick kill off anymore, because each team has a full 30 seconds to make sure everyone's good to go.

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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Since when did this become a love you lose thread.

Very true. PvP Revenue will be on a different chart as the current majority and it will add up to the total revenue.

COxPvP already is a different game as PvE and it would be wise to exploit this market. The "competitor game" already have PvP server and as of now, it's the same here. Only different is that player choose which server to be PvP server.

I hope there are more resources pour in to develop this section of the game.

Uhhh ...

Hmmm ...

I think it got tricky by % number 5.

So, really ... DR is even more complicated than I gave it credit for

I'm again left wondering why the devs, who had previously been proud of the move towards numeric transparency, chose this system. It's nice they have a system with lots of numbers to twiddle ... but if they have no intention of twiddling the numbers, ever, why bother implementing it?

Buff gathers used to be critical - pre ios - the ras on emps, the ams from rad and oh yeah VENG gathers...builds were a lot tighter - emps HAD to keep the cms and forts on blasters and crew - a rad ef meant death..

what is sad is it used to be - zoners graduated to arena - arena folks still enjoyed zones - because the mechanics were the same. No arena matches are TS on, HD on - and most people hate going to the zones - I know feeling like you are running through pig **** because you healed a teamate is super fun.

what i don't get - really don't get - if pvp is such an after thougth, not a huge revenue, or worth much time to anyone - why leave the crap in? It can't be that hard to go back to i12 - none of it is in pve..flip a switch, run a restore do something. We don't make you much money? fine. It messes it up for those of us left. And like Mebs said - if you did go back to i12 you would get more money from people coming back...it's a pretty solid business case. Remove crap - more money, leave crap less money....

and to posi's post. Umm how is it easy for the power designers when as stated before 99% of the population does not pvp so they do not deal with DR??