DR effects at haste

......and two years later.

Clicked the wrong forum thread and couldn't hit the back button fast enough eh?

What happened? The new game on the block has legit PvP and resources dedicated to it so a light bulb goes off that maybe we need to compete to keep everyone that we can. That maybe turning your backs and plugging your ears isn't the best strategy to help attract the new players as it was so stated two years ago?

There's some legitimate thoughts on how to help make this better rather than leaving it for dead as it has been for the past few years. DR isn't a bad idea in theory but in practice the curves are so low on some things that it negates whole power sets from ever participating. Also the damage scales need to be reverted and adjusted individually, some things do damage that they just shouldn't be doing. And one last thing, travel suppresion while not attacking has to go!

Since you decided to venture down the rabbit hole we invite you to venture a little further.

Uh, YES. If you'd rather not participate, don't. The option would still be nice for the rest of the players.

big WIN!

The Wario banner makes it even better.

If you guys think this is logic, understand the difference between logic and opinion/fact. The above is just an opinion or fact of 2 different products. If the pizza company thinks that the employees are having a hard time keeping up with demand or the steps involved in making the pizza, the company should compromise in order to keep up with demand and to keep as many people happy. That is logical in business. If you are not happy with the new product, try to communicate that to the company then choose to continue to be a patron or not. That would also be reasonable.

My point, if I had one, is that DR is a goofy system at odds with other CoX systems. Fine, lots of games have goofy systems. But what's particularly egregious about DR is that it's simply not explained in-game, and it goes against the devs' explicit promise to make the numbers for the game transparent. But ... calculus? Really?

You know the slider on the info screen for a power, the one that shows the effects of the power at a given level? The interface for that UI element should be repurposed to demonstrate DR in-game. I.e., you click on the "Powers Button" on the tray, and next to "Combat Attributes" and "incarnate Abilities," you'd find "Diminishing Returns". Click on DR, and a window pops up that with the different elements for which DR exists, "def", "res", "+dam", "+ToHit" and so on. Click on "def", and you'd have a slider with two numbers "Anticpated" and "Actual". Anticipated shows the numbers you'd get by simply adding up your def bonuses. "Actual" would show the DR-adjusted values for your AT.

Introduce it at the PvP contacts in the zones. Explain the difference between hold "protection" and "resistance". And explain all the other rule changes from PvE.

FWIW, I think it's appalling that a game that set the standard for casual, approachable MMOs has such an impenetrable PvP system that functions so differently from the PvE system. Screw whether or not the system is fun; the current PvP system places a barrier to casual PvP that helps to deter people from PvP and ensures that PvP will never appeal to any but a tiny minority of the game's players.

Edit: I think it shows an inordinate amount of disrespect to the player base to apply a scorched earth policy to an existing system; rebuild it with rules that exist nowhere else in-game; say that the new system allows the devs a greater degree of variables to tweak for balance; promise on-going development to achieve balance; and then ignore the system. States, for all his faults, at some point would've at least faced the music, owned up to mistakes, and said some platitudes about "limited resources" or "not enough player interest" ... something. Posi and WW have simply ignored the problem.

aww ****! posi just tea bagged and pooped on us like a boss!

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

I seem to recall the original reasoning behind all of these changes was to introduce more people into pvp. Give them a fighting chance. Has that dream come true yet? The only non pvpers in zones are recipe farming. That's a wonderful new feature by the way.

Don't come in now and change the reasoning. You're lying. You just don't want to swallow the pill and admit you ****** up.

It is easier to hide and not make any more pvp changes because this segment of the community is tough to deal with. They'll **** on you when you're wrong and they'll **** on you when you're right.

Regards,
Fitz

I am particularly fustrated at how a Tank's shields are DR'd, and I am not even going to mention brutes. After spending so much inf to make the brute and the tanks, and then seeing the large cuts in their shields, for resists, I gave up. I no longer will accept any duels with DR on on those toons.

Resist based melee toons have no PVP resist bonus from the game. When entering in arena with DR on, a tank vs a scrapper is at a BIG disadvantage. The dmg from the scrapper is not taking as much of a hit as a Tank's shields. The tank is only a bigger bag of HP's but with some shields that are not going to do much to even the fight. Now consider dmg procs, plus a scrapper's base dmg and Critical Hits... no, no way, am I accepting or dueling with DR on.

Let me provide some numbers:

On my Fire/Fire tanker with DR off

Smashing/Lethal resists are at 79.6% (same as PvE). With DR on, they are at 49.97. 30% perccent cut is a vast cut in the resist. I will provide a practical example from real game play. I entered the arena with a claws/regen scrapper with DR on, the DPS from the claws scrapper (Captain IShredU/freedom) was so fast (and then factor the procs) that a 30 percent cut took my Fire/Fire tanker down in about 45 seconds. The 4 seconds delay of Healing Flames with DR on would not make a difference that much of a difference. The resist cut DID a significant difference. I entered the arena with DR off. Enormous difference, my resists were decidedly making a difference. I would not hit Healing flames faster than the 15 seconds I had with DR on. But his chances of losing were about as good as mine: no one lost; it was a draw.

On my Elec/SS tanker with DR off

Smashing/Lethal resists are 78.8% (same as PvE)
Energy 90% (same as PvE)
Psy 83.3 (this is due to resist and defenses now providing shields for all dmg in PVP) and electric in PVE gives my build a 73% resist shield)

With DR on

S/L resists are 49.57 (about 30 percent cut again)
Energy 65.47 (about 25% percent cut)
Psy 51.21 (22% percut cut from PvE, but a 32% percent cut from PvP DR off)

I have duel'd about 20 or so Psy blasters in arena. I bring a whole tray of greens with DR on. The greens are saving me in such cases. I have beaten most of them, tied 3 times, lost once (lack of greens on that one, since i had two rows of reds). My resist cut make a dramatic difference in the fights.

With DR off, yes, the blaster has his resists capped, but I also gain more of my resists to Psy. The one who has more chances of winning, if the blaster if playing for the win as well, in that fight is me. The record is 2 wins, 2 draws for me (blasters were all playing to win in those cases, the ties the blasters were less aggressive and more elusive). Those were vs some of the better blasters in Freedom. With DR on, I am a big bag of HPs with resists shields that a blaster with the rate of fire and the dmg output will wear down my Tank much much faster. I don't mind fighting squishies who have capped resists with DR off, I am just glad I have mine back.

Add healing decay in zone, add travel suppression in zone... add these and other things in zone on top of DR ON and it's dislikeable.

I duel now with DR off with my defense based toons or resists bases toons. If the opponent does not like it, that's fine. I am sure he/she will find someone who does want to duel with DR on.

Very fustrating to invest 5-10 bill in a toon and have a huge chunk of what you invest DR'd. It was my money and my investment, let me decide if I want Diminished Returns. If and when I hear from others who have something to say about me not dueling with DR on anymore, I just ignore it. It's my decision if I want my stuff DR'd. I don't like it, and don't use it in arena.

I just ask you to remove DR from zones as well.

Edit notes: fixed some spelling errors and some grammatical errors. Excuse me if I made others which were not corrected, since work takes away my time.

I'm going to break this up into smaller pieces to address each part I have an issue with.


No disrespect, but how about the development team fixes issues that are already broken instead of creating new ones? (Placate for stalkers is still broken and Indom Will on Widows is also bugged)

Before the developers start creating new powers or what have you for pvp (or pve), current issues should be addressed. Not doing so, sets yourself up for disaster.

I disagree. I really don't think you understand at all.

I really don't care about the powers team. What I care about is the game and how *I* interact with it. Right now DR screws everything up and PvP is just un-fun.

Basically what Terror said below.


This goes back to what I was saying earlier about not having an understanding of the situation at hand.

In PvP we don't "buff the fastest".

The current PvP is just one giant damage spam, just spam damage past the heals until the target dies. How does "buffing the fastest" have anything to do with killing someone in PvP when the buffs at hand don't do anything?

Have you tried playing a thermal, FF, or cold in PvP? All of the shields do pretty much nothing in PvP. The new pvp has alienated buff toons to the point where they're just Heal bots or spamming Heat Ex on other players. Why should I throw out Plasma Shield when it ads 1% resistance to my teammates when I could just throw out Heat Ex and keep the scrapper's endurance drained. I'm better off proccing out my attacks so I *do more damage* instead of playing like a support character would in PvE.

That's an awfully large assumption considering PvP is just "talked" about in your meetings and no action is actually taken place by the development team. Ever since I13 there has been ZERO official documentation from Paragon Studios regarding how the PvP changes effects powers. The second the players start asking for a little more work from the powers that be, it's mets with , "Oh time could be better spent elsewhere." And it's just all talk.

And that's what this entire thread is....... talk. Talk about how PvP is screwed up and instead of fixing it and making the players happy, we'll just talk about it instead of doing something.

Here is the thing - if you actually want to do anything other than stand in the middle of a zone and attack single targets this is useless. If you added any type of "TEAM" based PvP (because it is an MMO) then we could use powers to heal walls, bubble flags or many other innovative ways to defend, attack or use strategy.

Your people have the tools - THEY AREN'T USING THEM. Give US the tools in an AE style setting and let US make the balance and tweak the maps to find fairness and a style of PvP your players will like.

Ever play Halflife? Soldier of Fortune 2? These games are so full of plyer made maps even using modded powers that its insane. Maybe heard of COUNTERSTRIKE? It STILL is the number one team played game in the world and it was a PLAYER MADE MODIFICATION.

Give US the tools and I promise you we will make a PvP MMO experience second to NONE.

Actually, technically speaking to fully understand the SR scaling resistances you need calculus. And they just say "offers resistance from zero to 20% per passive, as health decreases from 60% to zero." The formula is (60 - Health%)/3, but that actually requires calculus to fully determine its effects.

DR just requires a trig calculator:

DR = Value * (1 - ArcTan(Value * Alpha) * 2 / Pi * Beta)
where Alpha and Beta are the DR tuning parameters for the attribute and aspect in question (i.e. Defense Strength)


I think something like that would be a good idea in theory, but that wouldn't work in practice without a lot of extra features. First of all, DR doesn't work per power but per attribute, so that's basically out. Second, if you wanted to know what your precise Smashing Defense would be in a PvP zone given a hypothetical set of powers and slotting, you'd have to specify all powers that offer Smashing Defense, plus all defense slotting for all of those powers. No shortcuts.

The game could tell you, given what you have now what those values would be in a PvP zone, since the game can tell everything it needs to figure that out from your build. But it cannot easily do that with hypotheticals without asking the player a lot of questions.

If I knew a good way to add a "what-if" calculator for PvP DR that would tell you what a given power would add to you in a PvP zone, believe me I would have gotten it put into the game by now. Or made my own: I only made a spreadsheet with the formula for manual computation. I'm not even sure where to begin with something like that which would work with all powers and effects, short of adding it to Mids (and Mids is working on improving that). And it can't just work sometimes, and give bad results at other times: its better to be blind than misled.

The problem, Vex, is that raid pathing was NOT OPTIONAL. It was applied to all bases across the board, raid or not. Re-instituting raid pathing would break hundreds of bases these days.

Raids cannot be re-instituted in their former incarnation. Bases have evolved beyond what they were intended.

IF there was a way to flag a base as "raidable" (with pathing), or "architectural" (no pathing), THEN I would say by all means let's have base raids brought back.

But, as it stands, that is not currently possible.
The general consensus is that bases need a complete overhaul... from scratch.

My recommendation, don't hold your breath.

.

Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson

Redesigning a base layout is an inconvenience but it'd be a lot of fun for PvPrs and PVErs as it was before. I think the pros easily overcome the cons. I don't think it'll happen, but it'd be nice.

One of the things I suggested to alter the tactical equation of gathering for buffs then scattering to leverage them was to make all buffs decay in PvP, so that they could retain a significant percentage of their strength, even stacked, for a short while, but not for long periods of time. This would encourage meeting engagements where combat would happen when there was a high density of players, and buffs worked better when used during combat and their activation costs would have to be paid, rather than away from combat and essentially eliminated. It better balanced stand and fight as a legitimate tactic to scatter and spike, which opened the door to reexamining tankers in teamed PvP rather than attempting to balance everyone around tanker survivability generically.

That would have either taken additional tech or a lot of extra work to redo the buffs for this kind of effect. I was told that would be impractical to attempt. I will now stand here and whistle to myself, because that's the extent of what I'm currently allowed to say about the subject.

By that, do you mean an across the board duration reduction for buff powers in PvP, or rather the more of a particular buff you have on you, the shorter that buff lasts?

I've seen decaying buffs in a few other games, and generally what that means is the buff starts at a certain intensity, then over time drops in intensity. For instance, imagine if a Forcefield bubble is full strength at first, then over time eventually degrades to nothing. I've seen this both as a gradual shift (at each second it's fractionally lower than the previous second), and as 'stairstep' reductions, dropping some particular amount at specific intervals.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

That's not too bad of an idea, provided the rate of decay wasn't too steep.

Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson

The reason raid pathing was a problem was because people could set up obstacles in front of raidable items to make them hard to find or impossible to reach. A simple solution is to make decorative items destructible and then completely restored after a raid.

Part of the reason Raiding (& pathing) was turned off was because they tried this solution, and it failed epically.

There are no "simple" solutions for bases and base raids.

Sorry for the threadjack.

.

Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson

How do you know there's no simple solution for it? Maybe they have tech or knowledge now that allows them to do just what the Flea is suggesting?

Base builders are decorating bases beyond the scope of how base building was originally intended. I think they should nerf and flattem 'em all.

NERF AND FLATTEN THEM ALL!

*ahem*