Alpha Slotting: What's best for which toon?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

I see a lot of posts that say things like "I'd like to see the numbers on that..." or, "Well, here are the numbers for..." Confession? I stop reading right there. If mathematics is a language, then I'm completely illiterate. I also do not understand techie-speak at all. Nada. I am sure this whole Alpha Slotting business makes total sense to almost everyone. Just looking at terms like "33% pre-ED", probably 99.9% of everyone on the forums not only understands what this means, but gets in on an intrinsic level. I, however, do not. I know what 33% means. I even know what ED means. In practical terms? Not a freaking clue.

I know people who have end. issues, who have filled their Alpha Slot with Cardiac Boost, and almost wept for joy seeing their end bar stay blue. So, seeing a lack in my own toon, I slot my tank with Musculature, because, well, heck, what tank doesn't want to do more damage? I notice no difference. When I mention this to people, I can almost hear the stifled laughter through my monitor, and after a long pause, hear in response: "er, well, yes. You wouldn't. It's still a tank, you see...."

Somehow, I just know this all makes sense to many people (And they can just quit laughing, darn it!). To me, it sounds like rules which change on alternate Tuesdays unless you are wearing socks that don't match. There really must be a way to understand this in terms your average English major can understand.

When slotting the Alpha, do you play to your toons' strengths, or to their weakness? In terms of the tank, do I want more defense? Will that give me more bang for my buck? Or is it possible can I get more strength, not some piddly amount, because it's a percent of your basic blah, blah, I don't understand this part? Or, would I want to go counter-intuitive and get something like Spiritual, because all my defenses do need to recharge...?

See, I am at a loss.

For a lot of support toons, or anybody who wants perma/ anything, the Spiritual Boost is a no-brainer. Yeah, even for me (HEY, I HEARD THAT!) For melee toons and even some blasters, it all gets hazy. What should a Shield Defense tank or scrapper get? How about a Willpower one? My blaster got the Cardiac Core Boost for the 20% range. I think 20% range increase equals about a foot and a half - I really can't see much of a difference, not like having a Boost Range power. So what should I have gotten? So much confusion, so many slots!

Any help from the bilingual among us would be deeply appreciated. Oh, and I should mention that for myself, any glaring problem issues have been resolved by level 50, so no corrective action is needed. Just the whole "bigger and better" thing, and if Teh Uber can be achieved, well that would be even better! Thanks for reading, and to the two people who didn't laugh at my tank, I thank you especially.


 

Posted

I'll address one part of this: the 20% range increase.

40 foot range + 20%: 8 feet more range. 60 foot range + 20%: 12 feet more range... it may not sound like a lot, but if you're watching, it's noticeable.

But where this REALLY comes in handy is on CONE attacks. Because not only is the RANGE extended, but the AREA at the base of the cone (the part far away from you) is also extended...

For most cones, the 40 foot LONG cone is 40 feet wide at the end. But extending it 20% means that your now 48 foot long cone is 48 feet WIDE at the end. 60 becomes 72! THAT is a HUGE difference - makes it much easier to 'line up' cones.

As for your comments about math, that's too bad - Math is Power. You'd do well to dive in and learn more about math, but I understand if you're not wired that way... actually, that's a lie. I loves me mah math.


Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued

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Posted

Here is link to the alpha slot trees:

http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...lpha-slot.html

I await the more sophisticated replies with interest, but at the simple straightforward level, isn't it simply a question of which attributes you want more of for a given character?


 

Posted

OK to answer you basic question you must first understand a little about Enhancement Diversification (ED).

I will try not to get to mathy so take this as basics and not meant to be exact numbers.

Basically it is a cap on how much of each enhancement you can have in a power. For Accuracy, Damage, Recharge Reduction, Endurance Reduction that cap is basically 100% or equivalent to doubling/reducing by half depending on which you are talking about. For things like Defense and Resistance the basic cap is around 50%.

Now Alpha slots are in effect global enhancements so every power that has the enhancement type will be boosted subject to the limits of Enhancement Diversification (except for the portion that is exempted that is).

How much an Alpha provides to a toon depends on two things. The number being enhanced and how much you have already enhanced it. If every attack you have is slotted to the ED max (around 100%) adding the Musculature alpha will have little effect for you as you are already at the cap so you only get the benefit of the little portion that is exempt (1/3 for uncommon so 11% of the 33%). Also if you are on a lower damage toon like a tanker then the benefit for enhancing damage is not as good since the number you are enhancing is lower.

So what is best? Well you need to decide that based on the toon and where you are going with it. If you want a check list I would say this

1) how many powers do you have that are affected by the alpha's enhancements? The more you have the more you get from it.

2) how much have you already enhanced what the alpha has in the affected powers? The closer to ED you are already the less benefit you get (right now anyways).

3) how big are the base numbers for what the alpha is enhancing? The bigger the base the bigger the bonus.

4) how much of a problem do you have in the given area on that toon? If you have problems with endurance, accuracy, recharge, or damage then adding the alpha for that will solve or at least alleviate the problem (again depending on the ED cap and size of the base).

Keep these things in mind:

The next two levels of Alpha have greater portions that are exempt from ED so while you might not get much now there is greater reward to come.

The next two levels of Alpha have additional types of enhancement bonuses that may benefit you also.

NCSoft gave you a 3rd build that can be used to make an Alpha build to take full advantage of the Alpha and free up slots to put into other powers if you are inclined to take advantage of this.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
When slotting the Alpha, do you play to your toons' strengths, or to their weakness? In terms of the tank, do I want more defense? Will that give me more bang for my buck? Or is it possible can I get more strength, not some piddly amount, because it's a percent of your basic blah, blah, I don't understand this part? Or, would I want to go counter-intuitive and get something like Spiritual, because all my defenses do need to recharge...?
There is no easy answer to this. The Alpha Slot is essentially functioning as additional enhancements so the question you need to ask is "what enhancement type do I want more of?". In power's that do not have 3 SOs of the particular enhancement it basically functions as adding an additional SO, in powers that are already ED capped it's more like adding an extra DO (ignoring ED). This will change with the higher tier ones since a higher portion ignores ED.

So my advice when selecting an Alpha Boost for the Math Impaired is look through your powers and see what enhancement type you wish you had more of. Unless you're doing the Apex or Tin Mage TFs, in which case I'd say go for the Nerve enhancement because most SO'd builds are short on accuracy against +4s.


 

Posted

Here's another way to look at it. Think rule of 3.

If you already have 3 enchancments of a given type in most of the powers that can use it, then the Alpha of that type will do nothing for you, at least until you get into rares.

Since damaging powers usually get 3 reds, this mean Musculature is not likely to do much for you unless you purposely only put 2 reds into attacks in order to get more use out of it. If you use IO's then you're pretty much maxed out for the IO'd attacks already.

That's why Cardiac usually makes such a big difference. Nearly every power can take blues and there are likely to be a great many of them without 3 blues, so that will always make a difference. Ditto on the other two.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by catwhowalksbyhimself View Post
Here's another way to look at it. Think rule of 3.

If you already have 3 enchancments of a given type in most of the powers that can use it, then the Alpha of that type will do nothing for you, at least until you get into rares.
To clarify - that's 3 SO enhancements worth of enhancements.


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Posted

Quote:
In practical terms? Not a freaking clue.
I can't really give you a "short" answer on some of this stuff... I hope I can
shed a little light on the gist of what's going on.

First, a word about ED.

In the good ole days, folks used to drop a lot of SO's (say damage)
into a power (like an attack). Boosts of 150% or more weren't unusual.

This caused some balance issues between ATs, in PvP, sidekicking, and
more importantly, the future Invention System IOs (which were in design
and development).

Up til that time, it wasn't a huge deal, but with sets, it could get much
worse (from a balance perspective).

To solve that, they basically set a cap on how much you could enhance
a power (~100% for Type A powers like Acc, Dmg etc.), which amounts
to the standard "3 SO's of a type" for a power. ED seriously starts limiting
enhancement effectiveness as you approach or try to exceed that cap -
for instance, 3 SO's don't give 100%, it's closer to 95%, 4 SO's is only ~99%.

Back to Incarnate Enhancements.

An Incarnate enhancement works similarly to SO's with a few key differences.

* You can't get them until L50.

* Next, one Incarnate "IO", say Musclature (for damage), has the same
effect as if you could put a single Damage SO in *every* power that
would take one. So, it's just one "IO", but it affects ALL of your powers
that can cause damage.

* Finally, a percentage of that benefit does NOT get affected by ED...

So far, so good, and pretty darn cool to boot...

Quoting Adam Savage: "Now *there's* your problem...

The issue you're seeing on your toon is pretty simple (if unintuitive).

You're thinking that Musclature will boost your damage ... and it does ...
but,
Most probably, your attacks are already well slotted for damage (mine are
typically at 95%+). SO, your attacks are already being trimmed by ED,
most probably. That means the bulk of the Musclature buff is lost to ED,
and only the little bit that ignores ED is actually helping much - a pretty
small boost, all things considered (about a DO or so, for the Common Alpha).

You might notice it if you look carefully for it, but it's hardly earth-shattering.

But, how well are your attacks slotted for Endurance or Recharge? I'd bet
they have ~1 SO worth (or less), right? You slotted Acc & Dmg, and you
don't have extra slots for anything else in those powers if you're like most
people.

From an ED standpoint, you're well short of 100% in those categories,
right? Even in toggles, you'd typically only put 1 or two SO's in...

So, if you used the Incarnate "IO" Cardiac for endurance, you'd get the
full benefit from it since none of your powers that can benefit from
Endurance Reduction are anywhere near the 100% ED cap.

This is why a lot of folks typically go with Cardiac or Spirtual in their toons.

The Gist

Currently, the Alpha Incarnate slot is a real nice way to fill in *gaps* in
your toon's build rather than the core attributes (which you've probably
already maxed through normal slotting).

Basically, you maximize the benefit for attributes that aren't close to the
ED limiting caps.

Hope that helps to clarify things a little...


Regards,
4



EDIT: hehehe, you guys type too fast....


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by galadiman View Post
I'll address one part of this: the 20% range increase.

40 foot range + 20%: 8 feet more range. 60 foot range + 20%: 12 feet more range... it may not sound like a lot, but if you're watching, it's noticeable.

But where this REALLY comes in handy is on CONE attacks. Because not only is the RANGE extended, but the AREA at the base of the cone (the part far away from you) is also extended...

For most cones, the 40 foot LONG cone is 40 feet wide at the end. But extending it 20% means that your now 48 foot long cone is 48 feet WIDE at the end. 60 becomes 72! THAT is a HUGE difference - makes it much easier to 'line up' cones.

As for your comments about math, that's too bad - Math is Power. You'd do well to dive in and learn more about math, but I understand if you're not wired that way... actually, that's a lie. I loves me mah math.
Did you take Trigonometry?

Do you know the angle of the cone?


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

Posted

I use Cardiac.. A LOT..

Why.. because it tend to give me the most bang for my buck across the board reducing end cost on EVERY SINGLE POWER...

I have used Spiritual Twice to push one character to perma status and on another to Increase both the recharge and the heal aspect of a power. I will also look at it for at least two other characters.

I have used Musculature once for a Dominator who had some powers that due to slotting we coming up a little short on the damage side. I have a planned build for several others to utilize Musculature because the End Drain is coming down the line.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
When slotting the Alpha, do you play to your toons' strengths, or to their weakness?
It depends. Don't wince yet. It doesn't depend on math or detailed analysis. Mostly, it depends on YOU. What is your PERCEPTION when playing the character in question?

This is really very similar to the questions people used to ask when the invention system was first introduced. "What set bonuses should I get?" The first thing you need to do is ask yourself, "Does this character have any problems?"
- Do you often detoggle due to running out of END?
- Do you miss often enough that it annoys you?
- Do you have gaps in your attack chain where you have to wait for powers to recharge?

If you can get an Alpha boost that addresses a problem that has always irked you about a toon, it will make a *HUGE* difference in your enjoyment. Getting 11% extra damage isn't going to put a smile on the faces of most people. Going from having to rest after every fight to never looking at your END bar again will make people deliriously happy.

So that's your first question: Does the toon have a problem and is there an Alpha boost that can fix it?
Note: I know you said in your post that any actual problems would be fixed by the time the toon hits 50. But I think this should be the starting point for most people (just like with IO's), so I figured I'd mention it here.

If that doesn't apply, THEN you play to your strengths. My main toon (Ironblade) is broadsword/regen. He's purpled out. He's a beast. No problems. One of the 2nd tier boosts give +recharge/+heal. The recharge is huge for his primary (broadsword is very slow) and both effects help his secondary. His self heals are now all over 105% on heal and recharge. He was great before, and now he's just a little bit better across the board.


Quote:
In terms of the tank, do I want more defense? Will that give me more bang for my buck?
Ah, now we have to get a little mathy. Your example of the damage boost is perfect. When most people slot their attacks, they're going to end up with 95% or higher damage enhancement. Adding the Incarnate boost really doesn't help as much as it could. Most of it gets killed by ED. Same for a tank. You probably already have his defense powers hitting up against ED limits pretty hard. But what if your attacks have 50% acc, 60% recharge and 95% damage. If you get an Incarnate boost to recharge, almost all of it will actually be helping you.

So you really need to look at how you have slotted the toon in question.


Finally, for some toons, you really do want to eke out every possible bit of improvement in a key area. As as example, for my stone tank I wanted to boost his resistance. His resistance powers are already well into ED territory. I don't care. Just the portion of the boost that ignores ED is enough to make it worth it for me.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void Spirit View Post
Here is link to the alpha slot trees:

http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...lpha-slot.html

I await the more sophisticated replies with interest, but at the simple straightforward level, isn't it simply a question of which attributes you want more of for a given character?
Actually I've used that page to pick my choice by a simple choice system:

1} Which can I get the most enhancement from?
OR
2}Which would be the best fit?

My main Incarnate is a mind/ff troller and I've spent years getting his build just right. His build was 'done' so I went with option 1. I chose the Nerve Radial path leading up to the Nerve Radial Paragon since I can get boosts of accuracy, hold, confuse, fly and defense buffs (five out of six of the available enhances from the ultra-rare).

My third Incarnate is a Night Widow. While her endurance is managable; it's horrendously low at times when she's not using Elude (which then has the endurance crash at the end). Originally I was going with Option 1 and choose Musculature Core path leading up to the Core Paragon to enhance all her damage moves, defense debuffs and her one immobilize patron power. Then I decided to compensate for her endurance issues and plump for option 2 and choose the Cardiac Core Paragon to reduce all her non-auto powers, increase her damage resistence and the range of five powers instead.

My second incarnate is my MM and it was pretty much a free choice with her since she hasn't had any endurance issues since inherent fitness and has moves that could benefit from every Alpha. So I went option 2 and chose Musculature Core Boost to enhance her damage and defence debuff powers. It may lead to the Radial or Core Paragon.


So I don't really work with the numbers at all, I go for what feels right or best based on the alt in question.


Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with "depends on the situation"

Case 1 - claws/sr scrapper

While it may be trivial for some on these boards to softcap the defense to all three vectors, I was over it on melee, close on range, and AoE was hovering around 39%. I picked up combat jumping (thank-you inerrant fitness), and moved a few sets around. This got me closer to softcapping all three, but AoE was still under.

So I went with Nerve. I switched out a couple acc/dam IOs for dam/end from the same set, the hold benefits Char from my APP... and when very rares are available, this hovering scrapper will get a speed increase from the radial paragon. The defense portion (what gets by ED), puts me above 45% on all three vectors, and provides a healthy buffer against defDebuff.

Not sure anything else would do too much anyway; I don't have endurance issues (range and resistance are even more useless). Claws already has quick recharge times, and hasten makes it even less an issue (heal and disorient are not needed). Musculature is the only other tempting ability.

Case 2 - elec/devices blaster

I went with Musculature. While all my attacks were pushing heavily against the enhancement diversification wall before, the extra 11% is not to be scoffed at. Especially if you consider my tendency to place large mine piles to take out tricky EBs while solo. That 11% is the equivalent of at least 2.5 extra mines on the pile.
("There is no 'overkill.' there is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'")

The defense debuff aids melt armor a bit; and whenever we get into the rares - immobilize will improve web grenade. And then there is the End Mod in the musculature radials. Elec blast, without Short Circuit, does not drain that much endurance. But if you enhance the end mod portion, even 33%, the effect starts to become noticeable.

Case 3 - Arachnos Soldier, AoE Crab spec.
Spiritual.
There was no other choice. The 5 AoE attack chain was a bit slow, I wanted the spider pets and omega maneuver to have less down time. Additionally, Serum (heal, +max HP) is more effective, and ready more often (I also placed the numina's unique in here, so having that ready more often helps with endurance issues.)

Case 4 - Broadsword/elec scrapper
I haven't started this one's incarnate path yet, but I'm thinking Cardiac; alleviate some endurance issues and boost survivability a smidgen. Spiritual is tempting, but I fear with my play style that will only lead to more endurance problems.


"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper View Post
Yeah, I'm going to have to go with "depends on the situation"
Definitely. I started off with just doing Musculature and Spiritual for most of my toons. But looking at Cardiac for a few now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper View Post
Case 3 - Arachnos Soldier, AoE Crab spec.
Spiritual.
There was no other choice.
Doing Cardiac on my Huntsman. For one she's going to be running a ton of toggles, and has a lot of AoEs, so she'll need the help (at 34 she's already sucking wind pretty badly). But it will also up her RES values and increase her range, which will be nice.

Musculature:
My widow. She's already soft-capped, has perfect end control even with all her toggles, has nearly 90% global recharge with a full attack chain and perma ML, and tons of accuracy and ToHit already. So she doesn't need anything else. As a result, just going more damage. With her global damage bonuses, double Assault, and a very rare she'll be doing +92% damage all the time. On top of having procs in her attacks.

Spiritual:
Most of my toons are doing this. Blaster, Brute, two Scrappers, Necro/Dark, DP/Dark. All these chars have decent global recharge, but the recharge bonus adds more to all their powers, especially some more underslotted ones. They also get heal and regen bonuses (big perk for the Necro and Brute).

Cardiac:
As mentioned above, Huntsman. But my Dom is also doing this tree. She has most everything else she needs, but since making her permadom she uses a ton of endurance even inbetween refills. She has a lot of location AoEs and rains, which are 26-32 end each. I went the range branch, which is great for her cone powers (especially Seeds of Confusion). And later on she'll get some bonus RES.

Nerve:
I really can't think of any characters I'd do this tree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

Default: I go for +recharge, there are very few toons that can't use more recharge.

I presume your attacks are already slotted up to the ED cap. You will notice the musculature boost far more when you get the rare/very rare as a higher proportion of the boost ignores ED.

The only toon I slotted with cardiac is my dark armor/stone melee tank, 2 of the heaviest end using sets in the game (and it's wonderful).


It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower View Post
OK to answer you basic question you must first understand a little about Enhancement Diversification (ED).

I will try not to get to mathy so take this as basics and not meant to be exact numbers.

Basically it is a cap on how much of each enhancement you can have in a power. For Accuracy, Damage, Recharge Reduction, Endurance Reduction that cap is basically 100% or equivalent to doubling/reducing by half depending on which you are talking about. For things like Defense and Resistance the basic cap is around 50%.
ED is not a hard cap. It's actually 2 thresholds. Thresholds which reduces enhancement totals which go above them. Each ehnaement types (Damage, Accuracy, Range) each have their own thresholds, but it's easy to remember them by a couple rules of thumb. The first threshold is slight above 2 SOs worth of enhacement. And the 2nd threshold is above 3 SO's worth of enhacement.

Any amount of enhance above the 1st threshold is reduced by 15%. For example, 2 SOs of damage and adding a 3rd SO, that 3rd SO is only giving your around 25% of enhacement ( 33 * (1 - .15)). Any amounts above the 2nd threshold is reduced by a whopping 85%. Adding a 4th SO damagement enhance would only net you around +4.5% of enhancement. So most of the time adding more then 3 SO's worth of enhacment is a waste of a slot (But it' might be worth it if you are trying to reach a buff cap, say Defense or Resistance).

Now in regards to the Alpha slight, the enhancements it gives has two portions. The first portion is subject to the ED reductions I described above. It basically works like any other enhancer you could slot in powers. The second portion of the alpha is NOT subject to the ED reductions. That portion adds the full amount of enhacement to powers.

For example, the Musculature Core Paragon adding +45% of Damage enhacement. The Very Rare alpha have 1/3 subject to ED and 2/3 NOT subject to ED. So for a power that has 3 SO (!95%) worth of damage. The Musculature Core Paragon would add 15% * .15 + 30% = 2.25% + 30% or +32.25 for a total of 95 + 2 + 30 = 127.25% worth of damage enhancement.

One thing the Alpha will NOT do is enble you to exceed any cap in the game. Nothing in the game will allow you to exceed a cap in the game.


 

Posted

One thing that hasn't been said, directly, is this.

Having a tank with musculature alpha, you now have an option to go back to each individual power and see what its "problem" really is.

Does the attack still miss too much? Replace some damage with accuracy. Your alpha slotting will bring that damage right back up again, but now you're more accurate.

Do you wish another power would recharge a bit more? Use less end? Stun longer? You now have the ability to tweak your powers by removing the damage and adding what is missing, knowing your alpha slotting is recovering the damage you're taking away.


-Largo

Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Largo View Post
One thing that hasn't been said, directly, is this.

Having a tank with musculature alpha, you now have an option to go back to each individual power and see what its "problem" really is.

Does the attack still miss too much? Replace some damage with accuracy. Your alpha slotting will bring that damage right back up again, but now you're more accurate.

Do you wish another power would recharge a bit more? Use less end? Stun longer? You now have the ability to tweak your powers by removing the damage and adding what is missing, knowing your alpha slotting is recovering the damage you're taking away.
That's kinda true atm, but with the very rare boost where 2/3 of the boost is outside of ED, you still lose out on significant damage. If you have end issues, slot the dam/endmod rare or very rare to work on stamina (and possibly PP).


It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba