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I have both Taser and Bean Bag 6 slotted for Range Defense cap reasons.. Taser works better then Bean Bag. It seems if I hit someone with Taser they get stunned where as with Bean Bag its iffy. I usually need to back up Bean Bag with Taser. But again at that point I just don't know if stacking worked or just that Taser worked. I notice once I have one going I can use either to perma stun. But really I only see it uses against Gunslingers and mobs of those types. Longbow nullifiers usually come in sets of 2's in a group so I am more just trying to make them or force them to toss out that defense grenade and then moving into my actual setup position and then trying to kill them before it cycles back up again.
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Originally Posted by LukeMinhere
At one time it had a long range, then they knocked it down to melee, I believe, now it has range again, I think 20' is right. Something like that anyway. I was never a huge fan of it, as it seldom works, when used alone, on bosses, which would be my main reasoning for having it.
In PvP it was great against squishies, but not sure how that has been tweeked now. My only /devs are either AR/ or DP/, both of which have their own ranged stun. I have considered branching out with /dev, however, and trying other sets, which would make taser something I would think more useful. As it stands, I combine it with with my other stuns, and have had some success with it at higher levels on bosses. I guess my question would be, is it viable if it stands alone now? |
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Your off the mark here. Your implying that those who agree with the OP need not apply. Which is wrong.. So basically we will have a thread in which the OP does not like Device and everyone who thinks its great, but by there own words still agree that Device has some issues, still will say Device is fine as is and we are done.. That is wrong.. Dead wrong.. |
Originally Posted by LukeMinhere
You are the only one that is being rediculously simple here. The OP plainly asked "Why take devices as a secondary", you seem to add your own "not" in there, and then choose to answer a question not asked. And my statement that you quoted was the idiotic one? Get real davie boy, and admit you do not like any set you can't just button mash.
What do you know of a "good team"? You think strategy slows teams down? My answer is, you know nothing of a "good team". It actually quickens the pace, because you do not have noobs being res'ed constantly, or teams splitting up because the tank went left and the squishies went right. Specifically "strategy" speaking, of course. Now go to bed young man, and stay out of the adults conversations.  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On to ACTUAL topic: Devices, like any other set, could be tweeked. I fear if they did, however, they would do what they are famous for. "Fixing" it, and it being too powerful, so they have to "re Fix" it, making it worse than it originally was. It is quite playable, and is played and apparently liked and defended, by many. Button mashers need not apply, true, but when utilizing the set properly, you can even out perform many of the others in higher level situations. Solo, it is completely awesome. In PvP, it was THE BEST, before they "fixed" PvP, of course. See point made about fixing. In teams, if you consider that you can keep the button mashing squishies safe, while delivering damage, and not taking anywhere near the damage they take, it is a well rounded secondary. One last thing I really like about devices is that you do not blow your wad with one attack. With time bombs (which apparently, looking at the numbers, I need to utilize more), and trip mines, you have a great damage provider while maintaining your endurance. If you like a steady pace, as opposed to "boom" and you are out of there (dead from no endurance or killed everything), then devices performs very well. The argument of "but it could...." is moot. We could all be given a "god mode" button and never use stratey again, as some may prefer. However, if we are talking the actual game, and the actual subject, and what devices offers as is, and why take it....then there you go. Some just cannot stick to subject at hand. |
A simple observation you mention Time Bomb but fail to express to someone new that Time bomb has a 6 minute timer. So if I were new I would come here and by just reading all the great stuff about Device I would believe by your statements that I can pick up both and be dropping both bombs every pull. Which of course is incorrect.
Look I just find that common sense wise that players are going to compare Cloaking device and smoke to super speed and stealth IO. I understand that some have issues with the control factor in a cave and I get it. But trying to bend a bit and not get into some big fight over it, I have to now say lets not make it such a big deal as if your traveling at light speed and just keep crashing into walls. It is nothing like that. I could turn the tables and say its P.I.C.N.I.C. ( Problem In Chair Not In Computer )
If we are going to talk about "Strategy" which I have to concur it does sound silly to use that word in this game. I would consider it Strategy if Device was giving me something another power or Arch Type could not, but sadly it does not. Posters are going to brag about how they can stealth a glowy when another set can just walk in and click it as well again under different circumstances and different variables, but none the less accomplishing the same thing. Further your smoke stealth does not help against high perception mobs. So unless you have some defenses to back that up your glowing clicky idea will not work. Where as the defense cap route it works not only in that instance but many other instances as well.
My simple thoughts are unless you are in some sort of Role play group that you must be a blaster and want a gadget type them for your own reasons or some sort of AR Device only group then I would suggest and express that another AT with Traps is a better route. It offers powers that can be used solo and with teams that are more group centric that can also be of use to you solo. Further a moderate amount of recharge you have the ability to double stack some of these beneficial powers on top of still being able to achieve some sort of defense values which are very, very beneficial to you and your team mates when your on a team.
So with that being said unless you can provide some actual instance in which Device can out perform Traps or do something that 1 power and an IO can achieve I just see no reason to pick up Device in today's game.
NOW, if they made some changes to the other powers to Device that other sets did not have then I can see were someone might want to consider picking up devices.
Further I am not saying that posters in favor of Device didn't not know of its lacking nature. But I feel that some felt so compelled to defend it that they just didn't take the time to say or admit that Device does have some lacking attributes that could need improvement. Which again I did comment on as well as dave_p. Not beating up on Bosstone, but he is a perfect example of coming to defense and not expressing devices down falls until later on in some postings. Though he is not the only one. Seebs on the other hand I think expressed well in his write up the ups and downs of Devices. If you take Device within the context of what Seebs wrote about and mentioned then you have nothing to complain about. If you picked up Devices after reading all of this you have nothing to complain about.
Again not its not pick on Bosstone day, but speaking of his Fire / Device. I see Silverado using his Fire Traps corruptor taking out AVs solo. Yea I understand blaster forum. But we have to be talking about performance and efficiency here and not theme, otherwise all these posting and threads don't mean a thing. Perfect example I have a semi Petless DS ( last pet only ) / Traps MM. Why ? Because I have 16 other lvl 50s and 8 are defense capped and alpha slotted. Its a personal endeavor just to see how it works. It's a RP theme build as well to me. So discussing it beyond he mechanics of it is useless. So today with going Rogue I see no reason why someone who was well informed and understanding of game mechanics would bother with device unless it was a theme reason or was trying to achieve something for the sake of doing it with device.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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And that's why you fail at this thread - you keep on insisting on bringing in other things that have NOTHING to do with Blasters and Devices.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
Again not its not pick on Bosstone day, but speaking of his Fire / Device. I see Silverado using his Fire Traps corruptor taking out AVs solo. Yea I understand blaster forum. But we have to be talking about performance and efficiency here and not theme, otherwise all these posting and threads don't mean a thing.
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Quote:
Come on.. Should I respond I know what you are but what I am I ?|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
And that's why you fail at this thread - you keep on insisting on bringing in other things that have NOTHING to do with Blasters and Devices.
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You failed to bring up anything worth while that cannot be clearly done or mimicked by another AT or power.
Its okay if you don't understand but don't try to be the bully that beats up everyone because he doesn't know how to read.
Bring something to the table and prove your point(s)... You haven't.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
There are no crap powers in Devices
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
the ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks
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Further no one said any of the Device powers were crappy. You did.. But if your insinuating that all of Device powers are good as is. Well I think everyone has already admitted that Devices needs some work.. So your in the minority or just wrong.. I don't care which one you pick..
Either way this issue is a circular debate.. I'm done.. My stand is Device needs updating and should not be used if you have a choice as there are better choices to pick from as a blaster or any other AT. Further going Rogue has open up the doors for both sides so you have a tons more to choose from. Your truly picking one of the weakest secondary sets as a blaster. If your a blaster and its all about the DPS then Device isn't it.. If your not about the DPS well then any damage type AT will suffice.
If your gonna babble about soft control with device so can other ATs and some can do it better. So if I am looking for control and holds I will not be asking for a device blaster to join my team. Further you loose something for that "soft control" and that is DPS. I thought blasters where about DPS. Since that's what your saying you mow them down and pick off the bosses. Which I highly doubt works that way for you.. But what ever. My Arch EM can kill everything including bosses. I don't need to pick off anyone.
I am more then positive Device has been one of the most debated secondaries posted on these forums and will continue to be. For now I'm done with this. I am sure in the next several months when this thread is long gone and scrolled off the first 2 or 3 pages we will be posting in another similar thread.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
You know I'm trying, but I'm sorry Plainguy I really just can't respect that last post of yours. Or someone who complains about how the pro dev people can't see the faults (which we do) Yet then turns around and so utterly biased against the set to the point of not teaming with it? And saying we should take anything else but dev?
Wee bit insulting, wee bit hypocritical, and five tons of ignorant about what a smart and YES strategic dev blaster can do. and again far off the mark in what is yes a blaster forum, where we debate the merits of the blaster AT, not your fire/traps soloing AV's, great job, want a cookie? News flash, not all of us give a flying flip about performance or dps or whatever inane metric you want to use to somehow imply that dev under performs compared to other sets.
One bit in particular I'd like to single out.
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If you compare individual powers sure. but not all of us take super speed #1, I for one stick with combat jump to get to acrobatics. And most of my blasters don't need the stealth, or for that matter to waste my time softcapping defense, I'm too busy pumping out damage and leaving everything around me dead.| You failed to bring up anything worth while that cannot be clearly done or mimicked by another AT or power. |
#2 Devices has a -regen root, a stun, a slow, a stealth, a hit debuff, a DPS pet, hit buff, and two flavors of aoe damage, now name me (and here's the point you continue to miss) something that has all of that contained within ONE powerset. Traps does part, storm could do part, dark could do part, most controller sets could too. But devices has it all contained within a set for blasters to pair with a damage primary. And if you cant see the value that even soft control brings with that damage, well again, I'm going with ignorant.
If you think we trade something off for that control that makes us unworthy of being teamed with, I'd like you to spend a few missions with my ice/dev, who has multiple hard controls on top of the soft, a defiance boosted dps chain from all three ST blasts, and even as a "lowly" device blaster the only time I don't stop moving is to deploy a gun drone (the one thing that does bug me is setup time, yes that's a valid point) mainly cause devices keeps mobs at aggro and ranges I want, my multiple gun drones are putting out more damage (yay global recharge) I don't miss, and if I feel like it I can take a whole 60 seconds (HORROR!) to lay a couple mines for a boss and watch him splode, sort of like I did to malestrom in the tip mission before you talk to him. Watching him instantly melt was comedy gold.
It's called versatility, i can go from control to damage at the drop of a hat, i can fit that blaster into any team or situation, and I didn't need purples to to it.
Either way though your anti dev argument is just as silly as me saying since blaster primary's have the higher damage scale why would anyone want to play a corr when they don't do enough damage? After all if you look at things on a power by power basis blasters are gonna out damage corr's every time, more so as every blaster secondary (even dev) is about putting out more damage in some way shape or form.
But that's an rather narrow way of looking at things, since it doesn't take the context of how pri and sec combine and perform into account. Hmm kinda like your inane little bias against devices, funny that.
Honestly, people who keep going on about how power X in powerset Y somehow out performs the version in AT Z without taking sets or AT's as a whole into account is really beginning to get on my nerves. (And not just in this thread, personal pet peeve)
In the end Devices can be considered both the best and the worst secondary power for Blasters. It all depends on the player. I love it, others hate it, and others take a stance between the two.
It really isn't that bad. It's not stupendously perfect and awesome, but if you had two teams, and one had a /dev blaster and one had any of the other sets, all else being equal, I doubt you'd even be able to measure a difference in 99% of cases.
... And in the ones where you could, it might be because /dev's "situational" powers fit the situation.
Fun factor:
Cloaking Device + Stealth IO + Superspeed + Smoke Grenade = toe bombing even against Knives of Artemis and Rikti Drones. I tested it myself with this latest spring of free respecs 
Still, everything said and done, I agree with mr. plainguy's general opinion. Lvl 50 Energy / Devices, pretty fun, concepwise, but no real strenghts other than being pretty sneaky.
No buildup.
No endurance management.
No Melee attacks.
No holds to stack with the epic ones.
No permanent defence/mez protection like in traps.
You'll likely need to go Cardiac when you get your Alpha Slot.
My impression of Devices is that it's mediocre compared to what everything else offers, but it's the best fit for any role player that wants to have a real origin (en/dev, mutant who shoots concussive blasts and has alot of gear to keep him safe). Well, unless you want to play the guy who shoots fireballs and is, uhh a bit psychic on the side, not to mention he runs really fast and is invisible to boot!
Have you not heard of pyrokinesis? Have you not played Psi Ops? The guy shoots fireballs WITH HIS MIND :O
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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That'd be the effect of the Smoke Grenade and Super Speed's -100% threat rather than any of the stealthing.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Fun factor:
Cloaking Device + Stealth IO + Superspeed + Smoke Grenade = toe bombing even against Knives of Artemis and Rikti Drones. I tested it myself with this latest spring of free respecs |
Just for fun:
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Overrated.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
No buildup.
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| No endurance management. |
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| No Melee attacks. |
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| No holds to stack with the epic ones. |
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| No permanent defence/mez protection like in traps. |
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| You'll likely need to go Cardiac when you get your Alpha Slot. |
That all said, I did mostly take Devices for concept. Even so, none of the other secondaries appeal to me, and while Devices isn't the best, it also isn't useless.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I get such a chuckle out of this argument. Someone always trots it out as if its revealed wisdom and is enough to shut down all discussion. Short form "The game isn't hard enough for you to notice just how bad X is". Well if you are paying attention you can and do notice.|
Originally Posted by seebs
It really isn't that bad. It's not stupendously perfect and awesome, but if you had two teams, and one had a /dev blaster and one had any of the other sets, all else being equal, I doubt you'd even be able to measure a difference in 99% of cases.
... And in the ones where you could, it might be because /dev's "situational" powers fit the situation. |
BTW if the team is small, its incredibly measurable under just about all circumstances excepting the case where the person not playing devices just picked powers at random and slotted with a similar strategy.
Quote:
Really? I mean my Nrg/Devices is noticeably slower at killing stuff than my Fire/Fire. But "incredibly" measurably slower than an Nrg/Nrg? How much faster would my Fire/Fire be than a Fire/Devices? The lack of Build Up is a factor, for sure. Against harder targets than even cons it can become noticeable, but then I usually use a Trip Mine. Not sure how much longer that takes, but I do not think it is incredibly longer.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
BTW if the team is small, its incredibly measurable under just about all circumstances excepting the case where the person not playing devices just picked powers at random and slotted with a similar strategy.
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It is hard for me to say as most of my high level blasters are AoE machines. However, my Nrg/Devices is noticeably more effective than my Sonic/Nrg at killing spawns. For someone who is as addicted to quickly moving from spawn to spawn as I am to enjoy an Nrg/Devices indicates to me that it can't be that bad.
Devices has issues. Traps is ridiculously good. While it is unfair to compare a buff/debuff set to a blaster secondary, taking a step back I can see where concept-wise you could argue they are almost the same. Traps is a top tier set, nigh on OPd and Devices falls in the bottom tier. From that PoV, I can see the other side's thinking.
So here is hoping that one day they buff Devices.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Well, if it's measurable, let's see the numbers. What's the methodology? Specific missions run, time difference made?
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There is a range on how noticeable it is, that depends on what its paired with and whether or not you have bosses in your spawns.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Really? I mean my Nrg/Devices is noticeably slower at killing stuff than my Fire/Fire. But "incredibly" measurably slower than an Nrg/Nrg? How much faster would my Fire/Fire be than a Fire/Devices? The lack of Build Up is a factor, for sure. Against harder targets than even cons it can become noticeable, but then I usually use a Trip Mine. Not sure how much longer that takes, but I do not think it is incredibly longer.
It is hard for me to say as most of my high level blasters are AoE machines. However, my Nrg/Devices is noticeably more effective than my Sonic/Nrg at killing spawns. For someone who is as addicted to quickly moving from spawn to spawn as I am to enjoy an Nrg/Devices indicates to me that it can't be that bad. Devices has issues. Traps is ridiculously good. While it is unfair to compare a buff/debuff set to a blaster secondary, taking a step back I can see where concept-wise you could argue they are almost the same. Traps is a top tier set, nigh on OPd and Devices falls in the bottom tier. From that PoV, I can see the other side's thinking. So here is hoping that one day they buff Devices. |
It was most noticeable on my AR/DEV vs AR /Energy, /Mental, /Fire. As the spawns get larger and /dev needs more prep
In general if I am making use of devices major powers it adds an amount of time that is a significant fraction of the fight.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by seebs
Well, if it's measurable, let's see the numbers. What's the methodology? Specific missions run, time difference made?
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I get that you like devices. I get that dropping mines and having the gun drone drop out of the sky is pure joy for you. That's wonderful glad you are having fun. Making claims that you can't notice the set's speedbumps when you are actually trying to use them is just way over the top.
On paper, it is pretty hard to tell that devices has issues. I don't think it is purely an issue of devices, but the interaction of the power set with general game content that gives rise to problems. As most people have already recognized, devices is about setup, while most of the game is basically the opposite of setup. There is nothing really wrong with setup if the situation calls for it. One good example is the Terra Volta respec trials, where it makes sense to set mines around the reactor core. In general, the game lacks such type of content.
I believe the dev realize the issue. In Issue 12, the auto turret was changed to gun drone. The turret is stationary, and hence a power for setup, while gun drone follows the blaster. I think the problem with such changes is that it is one way or the other. Now, it is impossible to have the drone stations at one spot. The same would be true for trip mines and timed bombs, if they were changed to something that matches the pace of typical teams. I think the game needs new tech such that a power can be activated in multiple ways, for example place a timed bomb if I want to set up, but allow me to throw the bomb otherwise. Maybe, the game needs more contents like the respec trials, where we have to protect something such that there is a point to do setup.
Devices has very little to offer in a team, but I've yet to be convinced that any other set would work better in a team. I'm sure as hell not getting in the middle of a spawn meant for 8 people on my squishy Blaster, no thank you. LRM Rocket, Rain of Fire, Fireball, Fire Breath, then Blaze and Fire Blast to finish off still-living Bosses. Surveillance if need be. No, Trip Mine doesn't have a place in a fast-paced spawn attack like that, but Fire Sword Circle would fare little better. I'm not getting in that close after pissing off that many enemies.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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The PBAoE output of /Fire Manip is huge. Hot Feet and Fire Sword Circle are fabulous. However, the Fire primary has really great damage output alone, so it could be argued that the secondary is superfluous (although the PBAoEs are slightly better than the breath+ball style, IME).
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Devices has very little to offer in a team, but I've yet to be convinced that any other set would work better in a team. I'm sure as hell not getting in the middle of a spawn meant for 8 people on my squishy Blaster, no thank you. LRM Rocket, Rain of Fire, Fireball, Fire Breath, then Blaze and Fire Blast to finish off still-living Bosses. Surveillance if need be. No, Trip Mine doesn't have a place in a fast-paced spawn attack like that, but Fire Sword Circle would fare little better. I'm not getting in that close after pissing off that many enemies.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Build Up|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Devices has very little to offer in a team, but I've yet to be convinced that any other set would work better in a team.
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Power Boost & Boost Range.
Shiver
Psychic Scream
Did you know that Ring of Fire has a higher DPA than most T1/2 blasts?
All powers that can be used effectively, at range, on fast moving teams.
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| No, Trip Mine doesn't have a place in a fast-paced spawn attack like that, but Fire Sword Circle would fare little better. I'm not getting in that close after pissing off that many enemies. |
I also blap quite a bit, even on high DPS teams, cuz someone has to clean up after the bosses, and there isn't always a scrapper around. Charged Brawl & EP have ST DPA values comparable to BiB, and blow away any T1/2 blast. They're not Blaze, but then nothing else is Blaze.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
So what you're saying is that all the other secondaries only have one or two useful powers too? |
Originally Posted by dave_p
Build Up
Power Boost & Boost Range. Shiver Psychic Scream Did you know that Ring of Fire has a higher DPA than most T1/2 blasts? |
Yes, I'm being a smart-alec, but I think it's a fair question.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I wrote something a bit more scathing, but my new year's resolution is to be nicer to ppl, so...
Yes, BU alone makes every other set more desirable to a team than Dev.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
*shrug* Yeah, I channeled a little GG there. I do acknowledge the other sets are pretty good, and generally speaking better than Devices. What I won't acknowledge is that Devices is nonfunctional. There are reasons to take it that other sets don't have that have already been discussed in the thread.
And Build Up by itself is so very overrated.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I agree with the basic premise but I think there is an easier fix. Yes, having the option to either place a mine or throw a bomb is probably impractical. However I don't that that that is the only solution to the setup versus no setup dilemma.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
On paper, it is pretty hard to tell that devices has issues. I don't think it is purely an issue of devices, but the interaction of the power set with general game content that gives rise to problems. As most people have already recognized, devices is about setup, while most of the game is basically the opposite of setup. There is nothing really wrong with setup if the situation calls for it. One good example is the Terra Volta respec trials, where it makes sense to set mines around the reactor core. In general, the game lacks such type of content.
I believe the dev realize the issue. In Issue 12, the auto turret was changed to gun drone. The turret is stationary, and hence a power for setup, while gun drone follows the blaster. I think the problem with such changes is that it is one way or the other. Now, it is impossible to have the drone stations at one spot. The same would be true for trip mines and timed bombs, if they were changed to something that matches the pace of typical teams. I think the game needs new tech such that a power can be activated in multiple ways, for example place a timed bomb if I want to set up, but allow me to throw the bomb otherwise. Maybe, the game needs more contents like the respec trials, where we have to protect something such that there is a point to do setup. |
Giving Trip Mine a shorter, non-interruptable activation time means it can more easily used both in combat and ahead of time.
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Sounds good to me. Cut the longevity of the mine down from the current 4 minutes, if need be, in order to avoid monster piles of mines, but making it usable in combat would bring it up to par with other PBAOEs.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Giving Trip Mine a shorter, non-interruptable activation time means it can more easily used both in combat and ahead of time.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!