Why take Devices as a secondary?

I know I said I was done, I guess I lied.

I just wanted to say I never said I would not group with a AR Device. I said you should not pick up Device as a secondary unless you clearly know what your getting into. I would never not pick up someone because I felt they had a poor secondary. In today's game you do not need 8 players to do much. I have done LGTF and ITF speed runs with 4 players because we all had some sort of defense cap, either full or range.

Further I do not hate Devices.. Thus this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=187775

To me that smells of SO slotting as you know slotting a KB protection IO can produce similar results. I think just asking in the forums will give you an almost unanimous response regarding slotting acrobatics or KB IO.


I am more then positive that soft capping range defense is not a waste. I think your more upset then anything because I think if you ask again you will get some positive responses in these forums about the benefits of soft capping range defense.

Pumping out damage comment would only relate to your primary. Further I do not know what your primary is. If its AR then we can debate it as S/L is of course one of the most resisted damage types in the game. That of course works on both ends of the game Player wise and NPC wise. So inherently you will be doing less DPS with AR compared to other Primaries.

As to your comment about Maelstrom, I do the same with my AR Device. But with my Arch EM I use BU, Total Focus and Bone Smasher and call it a day. So your right I can drop down 3 trip mines at 7 second recharge for about 21 seconds or kill him in 6 seconds with EM.

Other then that below perfectly summarizes the issues.



Sometimes other people can say in a few sentences what I was trying to say with a several paragraphs.

If your running your Device toon with Single Origin Enhancers then without a doubt all the powers in Device will seem invaluable. I am starting to feel that SO vs IO might be some of the issues here. Because you just can't get defense cap with SO running a Device toon. So it's gonna be over rated when your talking in those terms. Of that is until you get and and notice how much less your dieing.

You completely misunderstood me if you think I was saying any of the things you accredit me of saying.
I never said devices was best. I do not have the numbers to back that up anyway, not being a number cruncher. If you go back and look at what Dave said about my post, then you will see why I replied as I did to HIS idiocy, not to those that have negative reasons. With that said, again, if you look at the original question, why take it, then saying why not take it, or pointing out all the negatives and bashing anyone that points out positives, does not answer the OP's question.
Am I "defending" /devs out of some love of it? No, this is just a game to me. I was simply trying to state that if you do impliment some strategy in the use, then you can have a very workable, and fun experience, with the set.
Problem in chair is thinking you cannot use strategy in this game, and that you can only button mash and use numbers. It is an argument the button mashers have been using since the game came out. How rediculous to think you cannot use corners, place toe bombs strategically, use caltrops properly to keep damage off of you....or even use stealth to accomplish goals instead of run-sacking, never mind enhancement placing. All those things are strategy, as opposed to running in the mob, press button for kill, then run out.
My mention of time bomb is of nothing, if you read my post instead of assuming it's meaning, you will see I do not use time bomb, and said I may have to look into it due to it's damage potential. Trip mines can be used with every set, I do it all the time.
You point out those that quickly come to the defense, yet refuse to acknowledge that some will only point out negatives, which, again, does NOT answer the OP's question. If you look at posts, the OP was asking for exactly what he was given, by his own replies. So stop assuming what I was saying, and stop assuming what the OP wanted. Take his question literal. No deeper darker meaning to "Why take devices as a secondary?".

Just being plain, to a plain guy. No insults intended. Dave intended to insult me with his post, so I replied.

I probably need to try and put more stock into taze then. I know I pretty much dropped it out of my rotation (for lack of better known terms), and was only using it to sure up bosses.
I also need to really look more into IOs, it appears, for defense reasons. Something I have put off (yes, my age and my CoX age is showing). I seemed to focus more on regen, out of ignorance probably...LOL.
I do wish to warn you, your post here is dangerously close to sounding strategic. LOL

Isn't it actually amazing what you can find when you read peoples posts rather then spout this continued nonsense regarding everything but devices? And that's what set me off to make my initial post in the first place, elitist crap like that no matter the context has no place in an MMO PERIOD. If you're looking for holds that's fine, go grab a controller, but the continued ill informed cheap shots against devices aren't needed.


Not exactly fond of it though are ya?

That and maybe if you actually read posts yourself.

How you managed to miss that yet catch the malestrom comment at the bottom of the same paragraph truly is a great example of selective reading. Or just selective reasoning to only pick points that validate ones narrow view. Personally I go for the latter, and it makes trying to argue against you pretty much a waste of time, but eh it's a day off I have time to forum indulge. Lets go with this gem next.

Wrong again chief, oh and you know what I "Smell"? Another whiff of that elitism from the guy who somehow thinks an SO slotted character is somehow not as good? Either way.

#1 My Ice/dev is actually my most IO'ed character, 2 lotg recharge, 3 entropic chaos, 3 basilisk, and 2 posi blasts the notable ones. Along with other minor sets in other powers.

#2 I take acro for the hold resist, not the knockback, and don't give a damn about the knockback IO.

#3 This entire comment is pointless anyway as it has zilch to do with devices, that and SO's are what the game is balanced around, not IO's anyway. And certainly not defense capped blater builds.

To jump around slightly.

You've got it right to a point here even if you're still seem strangely fixated on your precious defense cap. It is an IO problem because the three big set bonuses most go for besides defense are probably acc, damage, and recharge. With the exception of gun drone and recharge bonuses most of those don't help out devices one bit compared to helping out a damage centric secondary. That and devices has enough methods to mitigate aggro and control incoming damage that any defense building would just be icing on the cake.

It's not a case of dev being underpowered but IO's being overpowered. IO sets letting blasters do some over the top stuff like defense capping does render some of the utility devices provides not as effective, a point I'm willing to concede. Though it's also part of why I hate the addition of loot to CoX to this day. May abuse the system myself, but still don't like it.

Also $20 bet that you're gonna see a nerf to defense bonuses in the future too, the other big reason i don't have a single defense build across any alt in my sig.

*checks* Is the title of this thread why slot for S/L defense? Just curious. Devices, focus.

As much as I love people trying to imply what my motives are let me be honest and say exactly what they are, I'm upset as you put it because I have a super low tolerance for people who display the kind of attitude you've got in this thread. But more so people who can't put together even a slightly coherent on topic argument for their points, same with people who seem to fail basic reading 101, and most of all people who can't answer a simple question posed to them (See majority of previous post) So you fall back again to "Well the forums agree with me!"

So . . if by that logic the forums agreeing with you about S/L defense, somehow makes all your points about devices being weak equally valid? Tell you what how bout next we argue the merits of how 2 + green = chair?

I don't give one iota that a lot of blasters like defense slotting. It's not for me, and I have friends who think it's stupid and prefer full damage or as much recharge as possible too. But you don't see me using them to prop up my arguments do you?

It'd be nice if someone defined what prep time actually was here, and not imply it's that tired old cliche of every dev needs 5 minutes to prepare for a spawn with a minefield. Gun drone? Yes it's cast time is a pain, same with time bomb, but the few seconds you're waiting for it to go off is as Seebs pointed out in various places more then enough time to escape aggro range, or corner pull anything left into caltrops. If anything the larger the spawn the more useful a power like time bomb actually is.

As for bosses, here's my prep time AF. Smoke mobs, single pull boss into caltrops, slow with web or double ice hold, dead boss, finish off mobs. If mobs do follow that's what caltrops and a corner laid ice storm is for.

No corner? I still have the trops between me and them, and a barrage of ST damage and triple holds (if you count muni freeze ray) on top of smoked mobs running like ninny's from the rain power and trops rather then trying to get to me. If midden meets the windmill, I pop blizzard, run back, call it a day for that pack.

Course this is ice/dev, not AR/dev. But hey what can ya do? I mean AR does have a lot more cones to play with, you'd think a pull into trops and a single mine before going to town with the cones would be more effective then my single target blast fixation. That or using time bomb to vape a pack and then full auto anything that might be left standing. And before anyone says knockback there's that whole strategy thing of firing full auto right before the time bomb goes off and mobs are flying rather then shooting at you.

Annnyway lets wrap it up.

The whole amusing bit regarding non reading thing aside... allow me, from previous post, i'll try again since you missed it the first time.

Feel free to answer anytime. Oh and the opinion in that final sentence still stands too.

I laughed at this. I suppose there is no difference between an AMC Pacer and a Mclaren F1 in your world either.

You know you guys make this way too easy sometimes.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=253

I'm sorry AF, but I thought there was no "Real world" factors in a video game? =p

Either way if you want to carry yet another silly and pointless comparison one step further I'll continue to point out that what you missed yet again is that CoH isn't balanced around a Mclaren, if anything it's balanced around the pacer, or heck a soccer mom SUV. Not the most glamorous thing ever, but it gets the job done. Sure you can show off the fancy car you spent a few billion on if it makes your virtual you know what happy. But if you meet someone who doesn't give a care about the performance difference (my opinion on defense slotting comes to mind again) Then your shiny and your so called "performance boost" means diddly squat.

Take my DP/EM/Elec who is only marginally slotted, 3 entropic chaos sets is all. The rest is mostly 50 generic IO's. I'm soloing the EB's in Maria Jenkins arc in my sleep. Don't need more sets, don't really have a desire for more sets, and best of all the devs decided I don't need sets . . . unlike some who apparently need to rely on the crutch of defense slotting out blasters through some convoluted IO set placement over actually learning to play them. [/snark]

Did I mention I'm not a fan of defense slotting? =p Ok ok maybe that's going a bit too far, but seriously what do blaster fans do to survive before they get all those shiny sets?

It's an option to go IO crazy, nothing more. And players choosing to do so or not means jack in the grand scheme of things. Oh and I'll take my nice high mileage 99 forrester over your Mclaren on the icy roads around here right now. After all performance is only as good as the terrain and the person behind the wheel, or chair as the case may be. To put it back into coh terms I'll take the smart SO slotted player over the billion dollar baby twinks any day of the week.

EDIT: Oh and just for giggles some info from a car buff friend.

"Like an LS9 powered AMC pacer? 6.2 liter supercharged V8 making 620 horsepower and 595 ft-lbs of torque. Drop it in an AMC Pacer with a T56 6-speed and a Ford 9" rear end and you're talking about a car that will go from 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and run the 1/4 mile in about 11.5 seconds, which is equal to that of the McLaren. Modify the suspension a bit to go with the changes, and you could likely handle as well, too. Won't look as good, but hey, who cares about looks?"

Yes there are no real world factors but there sure as hell is better and worse.

You do grok better and worse I hope ?

Or maybe you race a pacer in gran tourismo ?

Unh hunh. I understand high schools these days will promote and graduate students to avoid giving them a social stigma as well.

That would be interesting to see. What parameters are you talking about for build.

Side note its a shame this thread has gone to the proves nothing challenge stage.

I accept this challenge as well. As long as I am allowed to play my full build to its full potential I have no complaints. My only request is no inspirations because it will just drag things out. Further I will add that I am also willing to have players tag along even if its going to hurt my Vigilance. I think that alone is fair enough advantage in favor of Device let alone what you might be considering.

Inspirations are part of the game. If you are going to compare how sets perform in a solo environment, not allowing them is a bad choice. I also am interested in what you mean by drag things out?

/Ice Has Shiver too - can't say I've ever had a problem fighting EBs at the -recharge cap.

My /Elec had issues, certainly. But softcapped S/L defence plus the Sonic/ Primary's AoE Sleep cone plus Snowstorm + Hibernate made up for it.

LOL, hurt feelings much? Look, I wouldn't have even stepped in this quagmire (and it was festering merrily w/o me) until you said this bit of stupidity:

So what does that mean, exactly? Number crunchers (a group you've distanced yourself from) don't know tactics (that's a better word for what you're talking about, btw--strategists would pay more attention to builds and team makeup)? Have you soloed multiple AVs? GMs? Can you take out a pylon in under 5 min? Do you know what these feats have in common? A good build (hint: number crunching helps) & good tactics. Guess which is more important?

Let me say it again for you in bold. This is an easy game. You don't need extensive tactics or setups for 95% of the encounters in this game. Unless you don't pay attention to the numbers, blunder into builds you don't completely understand, and then maybe you actually have to be "careful". Most of us who know better will blaze through stuff and only slow down to delete stacks of useless salvage. But, hey, as long as you're having fun, right?

A) Who said I distanced myself from number crunchers? You? Doesn't make it true. Fact is, people do play different. Sorry if you cannot handle that. I actually look at the numbers as well, but are not quite as obsessed by them. With a question of "why take..." there is more to the answer than number crunching.
B)Never tried a pylon, but yes, I have been taking on multiple AVs and GMs for, oh, I dunno....about 6 years now....changing with all the changes that occurred.
C) "But hey, as long as your having fun right"...what you mean in mock is the actual reason for the game. Look around you, that is the real world, a game, well, is meant for fun. There are more reasons to play than just the best numbers. I know, a collective gasp from those who think the best numbers build is all that counts! Said jokingly, so please do not get your undies all wadded up.
D)Implying what I say has probably been the biggest reason for your dislike of my comments. You put words in my mouth, then answer what you believe I said, such as "number crunchers do not know tactics", and turn around and call my words idiotic (so since they are your words, you should argue amongst "yourselves"). Devices will not support the numbers, hince, not for number crunchers. However, using proper "tactics" (you are right, better word), will help you overcome that deficite quite easily, and make for a good build that is very playable. You can even kill multiple AVs and a GM or two on your way.

Finally, no, I am not insulted easily. I simply know when someone does not like my answer so they choose to insult me as opposed to discuss the issue. The issue still being, /dev is quite playable, and can be very fun. Numbers may not be better from a number cruncher stand point, but you can very much play and have "fun" (I know, there is that word) with them.
Chill out Davie boy, take a deep breath, get out of the basement for a few minutes, kiss momma on the cheek (no weird stuff man), and come back and have fun!

You have failed sir...f a i l e d!

*only kidding
**disclaimer- sometimes is kidding only when kidding about kidding.
***further disclaimer- is still only kidding

I mean it in the context that either you will die a lot or it will take you longer to clear the map. So it would be easier for one player to concede to the out come depending on how the first person did. If you cleared the map in 20 minutes with no deaths and I am only 1/2 way through the map with 2 deaths and 5 minutes to go its obvious to me I cannot beat your time let alone match your survival rate.

I would guess we could impose a time penalty for each death. So if we said each death is a 30 second penalty. Then if you died more but completed in less time it could make you a winner or a looser. Simply if you did the mish in 19 minutes with 2 deaths at a 30 sec penalty each and I did it in 20 minutes with no deaths then I would win because I had no deaths. But if you did it in 18 with 2 deaths you would win because of the 1 minute difference.

I believe or understood the comments by dragonkat to say that device offers better buffs and debuffs then Traps does and can out perform traps because it offers such superior performance. So I believe that test should be done on powers alone. I seen no comments or discussion about inspirations in these pages during this debate or discussion as to the benefits or advantages they had to Device or Traps. Basically you either live or die on what your build is. If you can't handle a mission setting of 6 or more then just say okay I can't or use the powers you have to pull mobs in group sizes you can handle. All of this "Strategy" will increase your run time and a failure to adhere to it could cause your death.

With EM and Archery I was able to stack Stuns with power boost. Increase Range caused Holtz to keep running at me to get into range, then for some reason she would run away. Near the end when she was close to dying and she would run to the back, boost range was very helpful in hitting her without getting aggro of the other mobs around her. I kept moving to prevent he from hitting me with that cluster bomb when possible as well.

Honoree was easier because of his limited number of range attacks. What I seen was common was he would Range stun and then engage in Melee. If he got me in Melee I would go for every stun attack or KB power and I moved away, again power boost came in handy. Also being able to attack while stunned was great also. Further EM helps you obtain Range defense cap much easier because you can slot Makos along with Thunderstrike. Between the limited number of hits and regen I had more issues with endurance then anything else.

4 lucks and you mow the encounter down. Keep a spare 4 if you run long.

They would introduce a very large random element into the test

Over the course of a large mission map, not so much. The speed of blaster killing, without the need to setup debuffs allows them to use inspiration rush. I know you have used this with Brutes (and probably on your blasters too). Disallowing inspirations, when solo (where they are reliable), is unfair to the blaster AT, IMO.

No one says that when you hamstring them with extra rules blasters are great. Blasters lack defensive powers. Ruling out using the primary resource blasters have to overcome this drawback is unfair.

How about this rule? Neither player can use their secondary. It is just as valid a nonsense rule as removing inspires, IMO.

Um, no. You did. Like right here:

I'd bother reading the rest of what you wrote, but frankly, I think this should wrap things up nicely. Glad we had this little chat.