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Exactly. It could use improvement, but it's not nonfunctional. I think my '92 pickup analogy holds pretty well.
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Originally Posted by seebs
While the set certainly could use improvements, it's not unplayable, or stupid for people to take it. It works. It's fun to play.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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First good rebuttal I've heard yet. You're right, if you're willing to leapfrog or split the team, Dev can be used effectively. Most ppl don't tho. As for no other secondary providing much to a steamroller, all other secondaries provide BU, which is the biggest ding against Dev. Granted, if you're playing w/a good Kin and are damage capped, it's not an issue.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Leap-frogging ftw. If you are on a team that is demolishing spawns that fast, you likely should be engaging multiple spawns. Devices players have a lot of tools they can use on truly fast moving teams, but they cannot be waiting for the tanker to go in first. Honestly, with the exception of /Fire, /Mental and /Devices, no blaster secondary provides much to a steamroller, because AoE damage is what it is all about. But if you try to play /Devices like /Fire, /Devices is gonna suck pretty bad.
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As for survivability on fast teams, /Ice would prolly give you more mitigation w/IP & Shiver, and again, BU for more (AoE) damage. /EM & /ELM also give you superior ST options for hard targets after the minion/lts have been cleared by the AoEs.
Yes, Dev can pull close in various circumstances, but at the end of the day, it needs work. Why ppl seem hell bent on denying this, I have no idea. Do all the Dev players really think the set is balanced as it stands? Really?
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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This is really what's important. It can be fun, if you have a mindset compatible with what the powerset offers. It gets the job done, and there are far worse balance problems in the game to be addressed.|
Originally Posted by seebs
I addressed a lot of these complaints about weakness in my guide. To repeat:
It's the worst set, but it's not a bad set. A /dev blaster can kick all kinds of *** and do some really cool things. There are a lot of circumstances where some other set will do a better job. But... While the set certainly could use improvements, it's not unplayable, or stupid for people to take it. It works. It's fun to play. Yes, it could be (and IMHO should be) improved. But compared to the problems you get for balance with stuff like Trick Arrow or Energy Aura, devices has an easy time of it. |
If you don't have a mindset compatible with what the powerset offers, that doesn't mean the powerset is worthless. It means you should look at other things that might be more fun for you.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Yes, Dev can pull close in various circumstances, but at the end of the day, it needs work. Why ppl seem hell bent on denying this, I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
I admitted that the set could use love. I just don't think it's as bad as the "you picked the wrong secondary" police say.
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Originally Posted by seebs
While the set certainly could use improvements, it's not unplayable, or stupid for people to take it.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Exactly. It could use improvement, but it's not nonfunctional. I think my '92 pickup analogy holds pretty well.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Here's my problem with this statement--you're accepting a poor(er) set instead of asking for more. Regard for a moment the guide in my sig--Ice Melee was an underperforming set for a long time. I dealt with it the best I could, but we also asked for improvements, and got them. Now, it's still unfortunately widely regarded as a subpar set, but is actually very good, and IMO balanced as a Tanker secondary bet. its AoE (good), ST (suck) and mitigation (very good). Ppl are still asking for some love (mostly GIS & FF), and who knows, we might get some.|
Originally Posted by seebs
It's the worst set, but it's not a bad set.
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Dev is a functional set, but is not balanced w/the rest of the Blaster secondaries, and there's just no reason to accept that w/workarounds and tactical discussions. Seriously, talking about how you soloed/1-shotted an EB w/stacked TM and not mentioning how long it took to set up isn't helping the cause. I'd love to roll a /Dev again after having deleted quite a few of them, but I have zero motivation to do so ATM. I doubt very much I'm even close to alone in this sentiment.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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You're playing lipservice to asking for dev love, all the while maintaining it's a perfectly playable set. You can't say in the same breath you think Dev needs work, and also how you're perfectly able to keep up w/the other blasters and even outperform them and expect to be taken seriously.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Yes. We are all hellbent on denying that it needs work. [/deadpan]
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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My first statement on any team with my AR/Dev is, "My Smoke Grenade is not aggroing the spawn. You do not have to rush in just because I threw it. Hang back and make sure everyone is ready to attack like you always do. When you are ready, I will be ready." |
Originally Posted by dave_p
First good rebuttal I've heard yet. You're right, if you're willing to leapfrog or split the team, Dev can be used effectively. Most ppl don't tho.
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I've even started saying the same on my Night Widow since she picked up Smoke Grenade. I even made it a point to remind my usual SG team, even though they've seen me do it plenty of times, just in case they forgot.
There's actually nothing wrong with any of the powers, it's the animation times that need work. None of these powers, even Time Bomb, would be a detriment to a team if they had a shorter cast time. In fact, none of them are a DETRIMENT to any team even as they are.
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Who said anything about outperform? If I do, it's because I'm using Fire, which is disgustingly strong on its own. But you're not really getting that just because something needs work, that doesn't necessarily mean it's completely and unusably broken. |
Originally Posted by dave_p
You're playing lipservice to asking for dev love, all the while maintaining it's a perfectly playable set. You can't say in the same breath you think Dev needs work, and also how you're perfectly able to keep up w/the other blasters and even outperform them and expect to be taken seriously.
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Devices fills a space the other Blaster secondaries don't. Could it fill that space better with improvements? Absolutely. Should I reroll and pick a new set? Hell no. The other secondaries can't do what I'd like them to do. Even if Devices only does that 50%, the others do it 0%.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Exactly my point. Devices are avalable ONLY to blasters, so if you are going to compare the set to traps (Which many do) you also have to point out that blasters do not get traps and defenders, corruptors and masterminds do not get devices.
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Originally Posted by Patient_V
Right, but this thread is about Devices.
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Well I think Time Bomb needs a shorter click to boom time rather than just a shorter animation time but I agree with the fundamental assessment. Giving Trip Mine and Gun Drone shorter animation times would fix most of the problems I see with the set. Gun Drone does not to enough damage to make up for the frustratingly long animation time and shortening the animation time on Trip Mine would effectively make it a more useful replacement for the hard hitting melee attacks in most other Blaster secondaries.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
There's actually nothing wrong with any of the powers, it's the animation times that need work. None of these powers, even Time Bomb, would be a detriment to a team if they had a shorter cast time. In fact, none of them are a DETRIMENT to any team even as they are.
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Adding other improvements such as a damage or defense boost of some type to Cloaking Device would be nice but overall I think it's the last three powers that need the most help. Web Grenade, Caltrops, Taser, Targeting Drone and Smoke Grenade are all basically fine as is, providing abilities in-line with those in other Blaster secondaries. Cloaking Device is a glorified pool power but that alone isn't a problem, it's simply annoying when considered in relation to the rest of the set. Buffing Trip Mine, Time Bomb and Gun Drone to make them more effective in fast paced, mobile combat would do a lot to bring the set in-line with other secondaries.
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One way in which it IS useful to compare Traps and Devices is in terms of animation times. Traps has five powers that involve dropping a gadget at your current location. Three of those have animation times just over 2 seconds but the two copied from Devices have much longer animation times. This illustrates the legacy problems both sets have. |
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Exactly my point. Devices are avalable ONLY to blasters, so if you are going to compare the set to traps (Which many do) you also have to point out that blasters do not get traps and defenders, corruptors and masterminds do not get devices.
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I think that when the devs designed Traps they realized that the long animation times of Trip Mine and Time Bomb did not really mesh well with the rest of the game. Consequently the rest of the Traps powers were designed with a shorter animation time to accommodate this.
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Well, Time Bomb's countdown time is 15 seconds, (IIRC) while Omega Manuever's is 10 seconds. Omega Manuever does much less damage. However, it has a property that Time Bomb doesn't, which is that it taunts, thus keeping its targets in range until the explosion goes off. This is MUCH more helpful to ensuring that the longer "click to boom time" as you put it, is effectively used. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well I think Time Bomb needs a shorter click to boom time rather than just a shorter animation time but I agree with the fundamental assessment.
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Since the damage of Omega Manuever is 0.6 of Time Bomb, I think making Time Bomb's cast time 3.83 seconds, so it has the same DPA as Omega Manuever, and lowering its countdown time to 10 seconds, while adding the Taunt, would make it just as effective. Heck, I don't think anyone would argue against a clone of Omega Manuever.
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| Giving Trip Mine and Gun Drone shorter animation times would fix most of the problems I see with the set. Gun Drone does not to enough damage to make up for the frustratingly long animation time and shortening the animation time on Trip Mine would effectively make it a more useful replacement for the hard hitting melee attacks in most other Blaster secondaries. |
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| Adding other improvements such as a damage or defense boost of some type to Cloaking Device would be nice but overall I think it's the last three powers that need the most help. [...] Cloaking Device is a glorified pool power but that alone isn't a problem, it's simply annoying when considered in relation to the rest of the set. |
I would also disagree that Cloaking Device is a "glorified pool power". Cloaking Device does not slow you, as Stealth does, and does not prevent you from attacking, as Invisibility does. It has a lower End cost, and according to CoD it provides 15 feet of stealth in PvE even when suppressed. So while it's not as good as Superior Invisibility, or even the SoA Cloaking Device, it's certainly better than pool Stealth. When combined with Smoke Grenade, it is WAY better than pool Stealth.
I would certainly like to see it have a Critical component, like the SoA version, but clearly the devs went with the Targetting Drone/Sniper Rifle combination instead. Which, as I said, is a marginal at best attempt to address the issue, but obviously the devs did not want to give too much benefit to the AR/Dev combination without addressing the other sets as well. But again, the bonus to Sniper Rifle and possibly to other sniper attacks could be something the devs could improve in the future, along with the long cast times.
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I would! But I'm weird - I actually like having most of the spawn go bye-bye in a single blast with me waiting in perfect safety to pick off any remaining LTs and Bosses with a couple of more standard shots. Those who like the "Go! Go! Go!" lifestyle should choose a different set. Devices is almost fine as it is for those of us with a smidgen of patience. (the ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks, and for Taser to have some range like the real thing does (35' range for the police/military model would be out of the question, I think, for balance purposes, but the 15' maximum legal civilian range should be fine))
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Heck, I don't think anyone would argue against a clone of Omega Manuever.
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I wouldn't compare it to a '92 pickup (though amusingly, I drive a '92 station wagon). I'd compare it to a couple-year-old car, maybe just out of warranty and a couple quirks.
But yeah, it could definitely use some tweaking. It wouldn't be the first set I'd identify as needing some love (that'd be either Trick Arrow or Energy Aura).
Bah, just make Time Bomb a hand grenade and adjust the numbers accordingly. Or something like the VEATs Venom Grenade. Cottage rule be damned.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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Interestingly, in retrospect I think I have determined that Trip Mine and Omega Manuever do the same damage. Time Bomb does 66.7% more. Although Trip Mine does have an additional chance of 55.61 Lethal damage that Omega Manuever doesn't. |
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
I would! But I'm weird - I actually like having most of the spawn go bye-bye in a single blast with me waiting in perfect safety to pick off any remaining LTs and Bosses with a couple of more standard shots.
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At level 50:
Trip Mine = 111.22 Lethal + 55.61 Fire
Time Bomb = 166.83 Lethal + 111.22 Fire
Omega = 55.61 Smashing + 111.22 Energy
Now, what's amusing here is that 111.22 is exactly twice 55.61. And 55.61 is the damage of an AT with damage scale 1.0 at level 50. So ignoring the damage modifiers of the ATs (since that's being ignored for these three anyway) that comes out to:
Trip Mine = 2.0 Lethal + 1.0 Fire
Time Bomb = 3.0 Lethal + 2.0 Fire
Omega = 1.0 Smashing + 2.0 Energy
Trip Mine and Omega Manuever both have 3.0 scale damage, with Trip Mine doing mostly Lethal, and half that Fire, while Omega is mostly Energy and half that Smashing. Time Bomb has a scale 5.0 damage, with 50% more Lethal damage than Trip Mine, and 100% more Fire damage.
Trip Mine and Time Bomb also both do knockback as a secondary effect, while Omega is stun. But the similarity there is no coincidence, I'm sure.
BTW, the above is for Blasters, Corruptors, and Crab Spiders. Defenders and Masterminds appear to have a different Trip Mine and Time Bomb. (And in fact I believe the Mastermind Detonator does different damage depending on the tier of henchman destroyed)
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| (the ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks, and for Taser to have some range like the real thing does (35' range for the police/military model would be out of the question, I think, for balance purposes, but the 15' maximum legal civilian range should be fine |
Taser was made ranged quite a while back, it currently has a 20 foot range. Probably few people know this.
The main reason people take Devices as a secondary is theme.
The real advantages have been well discussed, but IMHO, caltrops and targetting drone are musts and well discussed. Cloaking Device is the equivalent of a stealth IO (you need SS or smoke grenade) to be fully invis basically. Cloaking Device can hold a few defense IO procs which is abou the best use of it to me as it does not soak up another power pool. There are many ways around it. Webnade is decent actually. Smoke is actually decent power, but I do not personally take it. Slotted, it is quite useful actually, but in high levels, where many of your teammates become softcapped or have ways to mitigate incoming damage, smoke could be easily skipped. Trip Mine is fun, but a solo tool. Time Bomb is a great nuke, and you can time time bomb and trip mine when fully invis for a nice double blast (once again a solo tool almost exclusively). The Gun Drone is OK and gets a bad rap in my opinion. It is a pet essentially, may get a little aggro and helps with damage output a little bit. If you could target it like a MM pet, I would raise it from one star to three. The taser thing is useless to me.
So all that said, why devices? To be honest, if you took webnade (you have to), caltrops and TD as the only powers, I would probably say good choice. The real reason to take it is sadly it allows you to pick a lot of different pool powers or more powers from your primary. I made an archery/devices blaster and the TD + archery inherent made it so that I could pretty much hit +3/+4 with no accuracy or to hit buff slotted at all. TD is a fantastic power. All that said, the argument falls apart however. If you decide to slot IO sets, they come with accuracy, and usually a fully slotted set will end up with 40-70% accuracy per power. Now that being said, you have likely picked up some additional to hit buffs or accuracy from IO bonuses as well. At this point, TD may become overkill. If you are slotting with generic IO's or SO's, then TD is quite useful. Devices may allow for some odd slotting in otherwords.
So in summary why devices:
(1) Theme
(2) Allows for more power choices from primary or pool powers
(3) Creative IO slotting
(4) Everyone is not you, and some people like it.
Sets time bomb, trip mine, throws caltops, shoots you and runs down hall yelling come get some!!!! Cheers
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Huh. You're right. My bad. Now I've got to find a spot to fit it in the next time I feel like respeccing my AR/Dev...
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Taser was made ranged quite a while back, it currently has a 20 foot range. Probably few people know this.
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Yup, works nice on my Archery/Devices Blaster. He's a hover blaster, so he can get in close to use it on those pesky bosses. Most excellent. I definitely wish Stun for EM had a little range.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Huh. You're right. My bad. Now I've got to find a spot to fit it in the next time I feel like respeccing my AR/Dev...
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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The reason it only works with AR Sniper attack is Device has no buildup, and many complained that every other secondary had build up. So they added that in. |
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
I would! But I'm weird - I actually like having most of the spawn go bye-bye in a single blast with me waiting in perfect safety to pick off any remaining LTs and Bosses with a couple of more standard shots. Those who like the "Go! Go! Go!" lifestyle should choose a different set. Devices is almost fine as it is for those of us with a smidgen of patience. (the ONLY changes it needs are for the snipe bonus on Targetting Drone to apply to ALL sniper attacks, and for Taser to have some range like the real thing does (35' range for the police/military model would be out of the question, I think, for balance purposes, but the 15' maximum legal civilian range should be fine))
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Taser did get its range increased. So you want its range increase even more. It used to be shorter then it is now.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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You are the only one that is being rediculously simple here. The OP plainly asked "Why take devices as a secondary", you seem to add your own "not" in there, and then choose to answer a question not asked. And my statement that you quoted was the idiotic one? Get real davie boy, and admit you do not like any set you can't just button mash.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
I have problems w/idiotic statements like which I originally quoted. This game is ridiculously simple, and statements like Dev is more "strategic" simply means it requires more setup time, which just drags good teams down.
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What do you know of a "good team"? You think strategy slows teams down? My answer is, you know nothing of a "good team". It actually quickens the pace, because you do not have noobs being res'ed constantly, or teams splitting up because the tank went left and the squishies went right. Specifically "strategy" speaking, of course.
Now go to bed young man, and stay out of the adults conversations.
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On to ACTUAL topic:
Devices, like any other set, could be tweeked. I fear if they did, however, they would do what they are famous for. "Fixing" it, and it being too powerful, so they have to "re Fix" it, making it worse than it originally was. It is quite playable, and is played and apparently liked and defended, by many. Button mashers need not apply, true, but when utilizing the set properly, you can even out perform many of the others in higher level situations.
Solo, it is completely awesome. In PvP, it was THE BEST, before they "fixed" PvP, of course. See point made about fixing.
In teams, if you consider that you can keep the button mashing squishies safe, while delivering damage, and not taking anywhere near the damage they take, it is a well rounded secondary.
One last thing I really like about devices is that you do not blow your wad with one attack. With time bombs (which apparently, looking at the numbers, I need to utilize more), and trip mines, you have a great damage provider while maintaining your endurance. If you like a steady pace, as opposed to "boom" and you are out of there (dead from no endurance or killed everything), then devices performs very well.
The argument of "but it could...." is moot. We could all be given a "god mode" button and never use stratey again, as some may prefer. However, if we are talking the actual game, and the actual subject, and what devices offers as is, and why take it....then there you go.
Some just cannot stick to subject at hand.
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At one time it had a long range, then they knocked it down to melee, I believe, now it has range again, I think 20' is right. Something like that anyway. I was never a huge fan of it, as it seldom works, when used alone, on bosses, which would be my main reasoning for having it. |
Originally Posted by plainguy
Taser did get its range increased. So you want its range increase even more. It used to be shorter then it is now.
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In PvP it was great against squishies, but not sure how that has been tweeked now.
My only /devs are either AR/ or DP/, both of which have their own ranged stun. I have considered branching out with /dev, however, and trying other sets, which would make taser something I would think more useful. As it stands, I combine it with with my other stuns, and have had some success with it at higher levels on bosses.
I guess my question would be, is it viable if it stands alone now?
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Actually, the reason it only works with AR is that AR doesn't have Aim, which every other Blaster primary has. So AR/Dev gets double-shorted.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
The reason it only works with AR Sniper attack is Device has no buildup, and many complained that every other secondary had build up. So they added that in.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
DP hasn't got Aim. Nor has it got a snipe.
I admitted that the set could use love. I just don't think it's as bad as the "you picked the wrong secondary" police say.
Also, it's better to try and make a point without trying to insult people, Patient V. That snowflake garbage is only meant to inflame, and it's unecessary.
I did my best, Shaggy! I hope you can learn to love your characters, but if not, don't keep them in the stable "just because". For me, this thread is done.
*tosses caltrops, and ducks around the corner