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Start with your badly flawed, poorly informed assumptions and lame pretense of heroically defending the 'casual gamer' who can't purple their warshade and work from there.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I don't get why you're taking such a hostile stance against me.
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| I'm not saying we should give everyone candies and lollipops. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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for what it is worth I have about 6 lv 50 purpled toons, and somewhere north of 10 billion inf ( I burnt ~15 bil at the crazy 88s party last week) and I don't feel I am remotely rich either so it is all a matter of perspective. |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
Now I have a total of about 2 billion on my main characters, with most of them IO'd out to the teeth, and I don't even consider myself remotely rich. That's my concern. The concern that the value of 1 inf. is dropping, and dropping FAST as long as anything beyond SOs is concerned. |
the value of 1 inf isn't dropping at all SOs cost the same as they always have.
the price of the optional IO sets are going up in price, but seeings as those same IO sets fall from the sky as you play the game there is a balance there. so as you sell the stuff you don't need at the inflated prices to buy the stuff you do want at inflated prices that is just part of the game until there is a better inf sink, but then that would just slow the inflation not stop it.
Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.
I was a new player recently. Feel free to search up my thread where, in my low 20s, I was complaining about how impossible it looked to be to craft enhancements, because salvage was too expensive.
So, the marketeers responded exactly like a tight-knit exclusive clique: They told me everything they could about how to use the market more effectively, how to pay lower prices, and how I could make more money if I wanted to. Wait, no, that's now how an exclusive clique would react.
Here's the thing: If everyone started using the market more intelligently, I'd have less inf. Lots less. But that's fine by me. I don't care. When I see people complaining about prices I usually offer to get them a stack of whatever they're having trouble with. I am not trying to preserve the status quo as such; I just know enough about economics to state, confidently, that the "problems" reported are not problems with the existence of marketeers, but with a combination of influences on the market (no pun intended).
If the devs came out Tuesday with a patch that added more useful price history, and some gigantic inf sinks, and so on... I'd be so happy. I'd be happy because the market would be more approachable for newbies, so they'd be happier. I'd love to see that happen.
But in the mean time, the problem is not that the alleged "flippers" are driving prices up.
You know what I did today? I decided to buy market slots. That is to say, I decided to anti-flip. I bought dozens of stacks of salvage and listed it all for 1 inf. I assure you, I paid more than 1 inf for it. There were periods of an hour or two today during which, at EVERY single moment, I had at least one stack of rubies up, priced at 1 inf.
I got prices as high as 111,111 for those rubies.
So here I am, with a few stacks of bids at 123, and a few stacks of items up for sale for 1. Any time someone lists something cheaply, it sells instantly for 123 inf. Most of the time, the last transactions include at least one at 123.
People are typing in SIX DIGIT NUMBERS in response.
That is the "problem" -- high level characters have too much money to care. They have that money because the game gives out immense amounts of inf and has very few decent inf sinks.
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this .. |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
No one only has 5 million anymore unless they want to
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PS updated your sig ... buying? we done did bought it!
Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess we just have to be quiet before this turns into a petty argument due to misinterpretations on both sides.
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Start with your badly flawed, poorly informed assumptions and lame pretense of heroically defending the 'casual gamer' who can't purple their warshade and work from there.
that's exactly what you've been saying in all your previous posts.
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Originally Posted by _23X_
this ..
PS updated your sig ... buying? we done did bought it! |
Done and done...
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I'm not "misinterpreting" anything, I'm going by your exact statements.
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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess we just have to be quiet before this turns into a petty argument due to misinterpretations on both sides
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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The funny thing about increased prices is it benefits BOTH the rich AND the poor! It actually benefits any SELLER of items. Say, your a newbie, and you beat up this level 13 outcast boss, and he drops a steadfast def/res recipe. So you go hmm.. this is only a yellow recipe, maybe i should check the market before just deleting it. And you check said market, and see that its selling for upwards of 10 million. Then just for giggles you check the crafted enhancement, and see that the price is now over 20 million. So you just made a clean 10 - 20 million by playing the game like normal.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I've never ever stated that anyone should get anything for free. The bottom line of everything I've said has been this: If the prices in the market continue to rise at the rate they've been rising since the introduction of market, within the next year or two, the prices of the high-end items in the market will be beyond control. There will be a massive increase in the total inf. in the game, which would result in a general increase in item prices across the board. This, in the end, would hurt everyone, and the new players the most. I'm no economist, but that's just my theory. I'd happily like to be proven that my prediction is wrong for some logical reasons. |
Now, in your example, that same player gets that same drop, at the same level, and the prices are not 20 to 40 million. Who does that benefit? The newbie who got the drop? or the people BUYING the items at those increase prices?
Usually, if someone tells me I'm "misinterpreting" them, it means that their statements were intended to be understood in some other way -- possibly a less literal or "exact" one. Now, I might resent the implication that I'm doing it on purpose, when I did my level best to understand what they meant, but I will usually concede that they must in fact have meant something else.
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I don't intuit any subtle nuance in the argument "I want elite stuff to be cheap for everyone". It seems pretty cut and dried.
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Originally Posted by seebs
Usually, if someone tells me I'm "misinterpreting" them, it means that their statements were intended to be understood in some other way -- possibly a less literal or "exact" one. Now, I might resent the implication that I'm doing it on purpose, when I did my level best to understand what they meant, but I will usually concede that they must in fact have meant something else.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'll toss out my answer. It hurts the people who try to use the market as a store.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Now, in your example, that same player gets that same drop, at the same level, and the prices are not 20 to 40 million. Who does that benefit? The newbie who got the drop? or the people BUYING the items at those increase prices?
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Here's the interesting thing about it - even if you never get good drops (and we know some folks say they never do), Reward and Alignment merits provide a pressure valve that let you bleed money off the rich market users and put it in your pockets. In a few days time, you can earn enough of either merit type with whichever earning playstyle that is more suited to your habits to create some of the most market-expensive items there are and sell them for gobs and gobs of money. And you can keep doing this every few days, for as long as you feel you have a pressing need for gobs and gobs of money. Right now, you can use this technique to cap a character's on-hand inf in a couple of few weeks, tops.
If all you want to do is play sub-50 and/or just poke spawns, then yes, inflation hurts you. It seems self-evident to me that the market is not meant to be used so one-dimensionally. People can do whatever they want, but there's no guarantee it will be effective.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I seriously hope this was a bad attempt at sarcasm. That is, unless you are looking for everything to be sold off market and not be available on market at all.
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Originally Posted by RagManX
Am I the only one who reads through this thread and thinks "I have the perfect solution" before I even get very far into the thread? Clearly this is a place the devs could step in and fix the problem with minimal coding - Market Caps!
RagManX |
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Nope, RagManX is dead serious. As a hardcore marketeer he knows exactly what would happen with price caps. That's exactly why he wants them |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
I seriously hope this was a bad attempt at sarcasm. That is, unless you are looking for everything to be sold off market and not be available on market at all.
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There is already a cap. 2 billion inf. really you people dont know that one. that is why people sell most pvp IO off the market. You can't sell anything for more then 2 billion.
I'd say it is fair to assume most regular market forum goers know there is a 2 bil cap. When people demand price caps, they are talking closer to 250-500 mil. Putting a cap like that would just make the people take their goodies and go off market. It wouldn't just be the pvp IOs going off as purples, lotgs, numinas, miracles, and anything else people want would all be bought off market. That would be a bad thing.
/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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Yes allowing. The devs have put an upper limit on the cost of anything sold through the market. It's quite a generous limit, 2 billion.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
Flipping Common Salvage for 1,000,000 a piece is effort? And allowing that to happen is balanced treatment of all users?
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I think you are mixing some assumptions here also.
First is that a "poor" "newbie" will be paying 1,000,000 for a single piece of common salvage. Chances are that it's an impatient vet that wants to craft that final IO for their build "NAO"
Second one is that the newbie is too stupid to see that and spend 10 minutes running a standard mission or running an AE mission and spending a hand full of tickets to get the piece of salvage they need and then selling all the rest for 1,000,000 inf each and bank rolling themselves to the hilt in SOs and common/uncommon IOs
It goes back to being net buyers again and having to have all the stuff that players that have been playing for literally years have but having to have it in less than a week.
The tools exist for players to IO out a build solo without ever touching the market or only selling and never buying.
1. Run standard content and earn Merits for completing story arcs.
2. When you hit level 20 run standard content until you earn a TIP. Run tips when they are available and when you run out of tips go back to standard content.
3. Level up to the point that you want your sets to be for exemplaring purposes.
4. Roll all your merits. Sell the surplus recipes you don't need.
5. Use your A merits to fill in all missing Pool C recipes.
6 if you don't have enough merits/A merits level lock your toon and continue to repeat 1-4. Until you have all your pool Cs.
7. Run AE content that is easy for your toon (you can create it yourself so that the enemies aren't mezzers if you are a squishy and/or so that they are weak to your damage type and that you are strong to theirs).
8. Roll bronze until you have all your pool A recipes. (This will be much faster than 1-6). Sell your surplus recipes.
At this point you can fudge a bit if you want. Most pool Bs are vendor fodder and can be had at the market for a pittance. If you were patient in step 4 and 8 and crafted your recipes before selling them on the market you will now have a fully IO'd toon and several hundred million surplus influence.
If you want to be an "avoid the market" purist you can save your drops for your other alts, vendor all the junk and, in this case, you'll end up with just 50-100 million influence at the end.
This is exactly what the market haters are looking for a way to IO their toons without ever touching the market.
Me - "What's that you say?"
Me - "The market hater said it will take 4 times longer if you don't buy from the market and 6 times longer if you play purist" (Yes those figures are accurate I tested them to see.)
Market hater - "THAT'S NOT FAIR!!! It should be just as fast as using the market!!!!!"
Me - "Why? It will take you 6 times longer to repair a watch with a hammer as it will to use a more appropriate tool like a screw driver."
Market hater - "I don't WANT to use a screw driver!!!! I hate screw drivers!!!! I only like Hammers!!! The engineers need to make a hammer that will work just like a screw driver and just as fast as, or faster than, a screw driver!!!!"
(Throws self on floor, kicks, and has tantrum)
Me (watching the fun) - "they have it's called a screw driver. If you turn it around you can use the handle just like a hammer."
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Obviously I've been confusing on my stance, statement and my argument. So I'm just gonna drop it. We're arguing about two different things. 
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Your argument is that inf is losing its value, as 2 million inf, used to mean something, and now it really doesn't. |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
Obviously I've been confusing on my stance, statement and my argument. So I'm just gonna drop it. We're arguing about two different things.
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Thing is, we get that part. What your not getting is that 2 million inf still remains the same value as before, as the content hasn't gotten harder, and SOs are still very viable pieces of enhancements, and 2 million inf can pretty much net you an entire stock of SOs.
Now, when talking about IOs, those are much more affected by inflation, and things like higher level 50 earnings, the difficulty slider, and other things have all raised the prices due to inflation. In order to combat inflation completely you have to 1) gets rid of extra inf, and 2) get rid of lazy people.
now #1 is being worked on pretty hardcore by the Crazy 88s. They burn more inf in a week times then I've ever earned in my entire 4 and a half years of game play.
the problem is #2. you can't fight lazy, just like you can't fix stupid. Lazy people want things RIGHT NOW and in order to do that, they are willing to pay insane prices (like 1 million for an alchemical silver) Now, the 'you can't fix stupid' part kicks in, and you have 3 - 4 other people not realizing alchemical silvers can easily be purchased for less then 1 million, and they start bidding the same thing. Granted, this cycle usually only lasts a few transactions and then its back to normal, market sustainable prices.
Until you can manage to complete both problem 1 and problem 2 inf for IOs will always have less value then inf spent on SOs.
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Calling B.S. on this and hard.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
It makes the game miserable for people I mentioned above by taking money away from the poor and giving 90% of it to the rich, and 10% of it to the trash.
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The market takes nothing from anyone. People give it to the market. They are not held at gunpoint to pay their inf for non-essentials in the market.
And the ridiculous assertion that when I pay what I want for Alchemical Silver someone rich gets it is more nonsense. Common salvage drops are the easiest way for the poor to get rich if they sell it at the market.
The view some people have of the market makes me think they are playing in Bizarro world.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Here is your failure to understand.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
True. And yes, you're right. It'd far and far easier to obtain SOs and other vendor items then. However, there would a much larger gap in price between using IOs and SOs. Having 5.5 million in a land where everything slightly better than the norm (IOs vs. SOs) costs 5 million at the very least isn't exactly being rich. There was a time I had 2 million inf. and I considered myself a rich kid on the block! Now I have a total of about 2 billion on my main characters, with most of them IO'd out to the teeth, and I don't even consider myself remotely rich. That's my concern. The concern that the value of 1 inf. is dropping, and dropping FAST as long as anything beyond SOs is concerned. |
The market is not the base playing position.
If you have 5 million you are rich because you can afford your SOs. This was not an option until the markets were created unless someone gave the inf to your character. We were poor then with no means to escape except to find a sugar daddy or make one of our own.
Now any new player has a leg up on where we were for the first 3 years of the game if they have enough intelligence to sell their good drops on the market and get by with SOs until they can afford more.
And yes if they are intelligent and play the game they will be able to afford more eventually.
As for someone who cannot play as much I would love for someone to explain to me why someone who plays 4 hours a month needs PVP IOs in their build. I cannot imagine they'd be able to PvP worth a damn playing so little.
People with ridiculous entitlement issues make me laugh at their self-imposed and self-created misery.
The game is fine with SOs. IOs of any stripe are a step up but not necessary.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I wouldn't say I am lazy just because I am willing to spend my inf like that. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
the problem is #2. you can't fight lazy, just like you can't fix stupid. Lazy people want things RIGHT NOW and in order to do that, they are willing to pay insane prices (like 1 million for an alchemical silver) Now, the 'you can't fix stupid' part kicks in, and you have 3 - 4 other people not realizing alchemical silvers can easily be purchased for less then 1 million, and they start bidding the same thing. Granted, this cycle usually only lasts a few transactions and then its back to normal, market sustainable prices.
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But I am very impatient.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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And I want them for the screaming posts that want them which will be followed by screaming posts from those same people if we get the caps and they can never buy the things on the market again. |
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Nope, RagManX is dead serious. As a hardcore marketeer he knows exactly what would happen with price caps. That's exactly why he wants them
. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
OP:
You need to get to 50 for the real money to roll in.
With all the newly minted Incarnates, people are running Apex, Tin Mage, Lady Grey, Imperious Task Force non-stop. Some groups are running them at +2/x3 or something, and killing a LOT of mobs. That means YOU get a lot of influence and drops.
As an example, a similar conversation went on around a global channel lately...people were debating whether they should cash in their regular merits for a somewhat pricey item (60-90 mil)...mentioned they should craft and sell drops on Market, just save the Merits...wasn't convincing I guess.
I used to be one of those that stressed on the Market, high prices...then I SOLD stuff! Recently I sold a PvP proc, bunches of purples, low-level procs...got enough money to outfit my Kat/Regen and my Sonic/Sonic Corr and my friend's SM/INv Brute. Seriously, with Alignment Merits you can get a LOTG 7.5 every two days; that's 200 million, which is more than enough to SO or even Basic IO all your alts. Is it enough to purple out/PvP IO out something? No, probably not, but you can get just as much mileage out of some uncommons/commons and the odd rare, more or less. Certainly the performance won't be at such high levels, but it will be better than SOs.
Just check the Market when you get drops, make yourself some money and the stuff will fall into your pockets.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Your argument is that inf is losing its value, as 2 million inf, used to mean something, and now it really doesn't.
Thing is, we get that part. What your not getting is that 2 million inf still remains the same value as before, as the content hasn't gotten harder, and SOs are still very viable pieces of enhancements, and 2 million inf can pretty much net you an entire stock of SOs.
Now, when talking about IOs, those are much more affected by inflation, and things like higher level 50 earnings, the difficulty slider, and other things have all raised the prices due to inflation. In order to combat inflation completely you have to 1) gets rid of extra inf, and 2) get rid of lazy people.
now #1 is being worked on pretty hardcore by the Crazy 88s. They burn more inf in a week times then I've ever earned in my entire 4 and a half years of game play.
the problem is #2. you can't fight lazy, just like you can't fix stupid. Lazy people want things RIGHT NOW and in order to do that, they are willing to pay insane prices (like 1 million for an alchemical silver) Now, the 'you can't fix stupid' part kicks in, and you have 3 - 4 other people not realizing alchemical silvers can easily be purchased for less then 1 million, and they start bidding the same thing. Granted, this cycle usually only lasts a few transactions and then its back to normal, market sustainable prices.
Until you can manage to complete both problem 1 and problem 2 inf for IOs will always have less value then inf spent on SOs.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Calling B.S. on this and hard.
...[snipped to conserve space]...
The view some people have of the market makes me think they are playing in Bizarro world.
Finally! Someone got what I'm talking about! English isn't my first language, but I'm not -that- bad! Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Here is your failure to understand.
The market is not the base playing position.
...[snipped to conserve space]...
The game is fine with SOs. IOs of any stripe are a step up but not necessary.
Yes. You're completely right. But here's a point:
You can fix Issue 2 (people being lazy) through Issue 1. They're very much the same issue, in my eyes. And that's what I'm trying to expose. If lazy people don't have as much inf., then they wouldn't bid at such ridiculous prices. How would you stop people from getting so rich? That, from what I see, is related to where the money flows into the game. Currently, the amount of money flowing into the system is clearly much, much, MUCH greater than the amount leaving the system. So much that even with the market transaction fees, and the Crazy 88s, we're still seeing a really high rate of inflation.
Edit: Here's an example of my own. If I didn't have so much money, I wouldn't bid 1,000,000 on a Scientific Theory. I'm impatient and somewhat lazy. Yes. But if I didn't have that much money, I'd be FORCED to look for alternative ways to obtain a stack of 10 Scientific Theories, that A. Wouldn't raise the price of the Scientific Theory, B. Wouldn't empty my pockets, and C. Wouldn't aid the inflation.
Right now, the gap between the amount of money and effort needed to buy IOs and fully buff out a character is realistically higher than the amount of money and effort needed to simply use SOs on that character. And that's fine.
The "issue" and "problem" that I'm trying to point out is that this gap is getting wider and wider and wider at the same rate as that of the inflation. If you think this means "We should give everyone candies!", then I'm sorry, you're misinterpreting me.
What I -am- trying to say is that if this gap continues to get wider and wider as it is doing now, then at some point in future, it will be too much to handle for most players. The main point being having the option of solely being a consumer in the market right now, and slowly, this option is being taken away. If you want to get rich, you wouldn't be able to rely on the PvE game alone. You would HAVE to dig into the market. That's what I mean by "affecting new players".
Edit: Going back to the example I added above, now I've spent some big chunk of money on a large stack of Scientific Theory. To recover from this loss through only the game, I'd have to farm day and night! But instead I do 10 Tip missions, and sell a highly-valued IO on the market, and I not only recover from that loss, but I also make hundreds of millions in profit. This makes my pocket bigger, and so next time, again, I'm more inclined and encouraged to be lazy, because I have a very much disposable sum of cash!
Yes, the game is a step up from the SOs, and they're not necessary for you to be awesome in City of Heroes. Yes, not everyone should be able to get buffed out characters in a flash. But how costly this "step up" should be? Do we want IOs to be exclusive to the elite of the elite? Is that a reasonable cost for a "step up"? Do you guys believe that everyone should be forced to utilize the market as efficiently as all the more experienced players just because they want to buff out a single character with IOs?
If you think the answer to all those questions is a big 'yes', then go right ahead. I could be wrong. Maybe none of that will happens. And if it does happen, maybe it's for the better and I'm just being concerned about nothing. But that's just what I'm concerned about, and I'm trying to raise an observation for the more experienced players to see, and maybe think about it.
I am NOT trying to argue or prove a point! xD
I am perfectly content with the salvage prices on commons hovering around the "Holy Carp That's Expensive" mark. All I do is take one of my lowbies or middle-ranged alts and go to town getting drops. I'm not hurting at all for inf, even when purples are flying in the mid-500s.