Only one reason to be a Rogue or Vigilante?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-12-20 20:16 in Player Questions
If all you care about is the reward you get for doing something, then yes, the balance the developers decided on was fairly simple:
- Heroes and Villains can access more effective rewards more quickly through Alpha-Merits..
- Rogues and Vigilantes have more opportunities to obtain rewards through the ability to run more content that offers rewards.
Thanks. I am not saying someone else shouldn't want to walk the in-between line, but for me I don't think it will work. Again, I can play all the content anyway because of the many toons I have, so the "fun" is still there for me.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
I'm kinda on the opposite end where I don't really care about the rewards at all, so the ability to visit both sides on any given toon is the go-to choice for me.
So yeah, to each their own.
Rogues and Villains can use their specific Alignment powers, too.
If the idea of causing fear or confusion fits your character, this is a role playing reason.
The Sly Bold Renardine - " I am Scraptastic!"
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^This basically. Sure Heroes and Villains can run tips and make A-merits, and that's what some of my characters do. But my Fort/Widow is going to be a rogue forever, it fits her character and I personally love being able to join a team in PI for a while and then when it disbands head to Grandville to see if any evildoers are up to anything.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
If all you care about is the reward you get for doing something, then yes, the balance the developers decided on was fairly simple:
|
The PBAOE Confuse power suits her down to the ground as well.
The hero/villain merits are nicer than regular merits. The tip missions are mostly interesting and well written. They are far better than the radio missions. But after a while, I get tired of repeating the same tip missions no matter how good the rewards. I don't really need that stuff anyway. I like the ability to make my characters be a rogue or vigilante if it fits my concept.
I have 2 hero merit earners I 2-box with. Because I'm not interested in only earning A-merits, basically all my other characters are rogue/vig, to open up a wider variety of play.
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My rogue is strictly for the roleplay but I definitely sympathize with the OP. The ability to play both sides is already part of the game - just switch characters - so that "reward" can seem weak compared to the bigger financial rewards (20 more merits for an easier re-affirm and A-merits for subsequent morality missions).
However, in the case of a villain going rogue, the ability to join the more frequently run TF's blue-side and the generally bigger merit rewards for them compared to Strike Forces are well worth the loss of the A-Merits. There is also the fact that it is sometimes easier to find teams blue-side for normal content although if you want to lead them you'll have to settle for radios.
For me the case for a hero going vigilante is not as compelling. Badges and folks who don't normally play red-side being able to join their friend's villainous characters when that's what everyone wants to play are about the only reasons I can think of.
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This is fundamentally correct, from a rewards standpoint - the alignment reward available to 'pure' aligned characters is much stronger than that available to 'mixed' aligned characters.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I have finally been getting my hero merits and see how valuable they are. Then I thought about the one vigilante and one rogue that I have. Is the only significant reason to have one of these so that you can play TFs and SFs on both sides? If I am understanding correctly, you cannot get hero or villain merits. This leads me to believe that I don't want any rogues or vigilantes--I have heros and villains on each server that I play so I don't need a toon that can play both sides, but also misses out on some of the rewards. Tell me what I am not seeing, please.
(Although I do like seeing the new symbols on my character choosing screen...) |
Further, given the relative lack of redside taskforce content (there are only 6 and the thorn tree) and the generally lower rewards for them (only Silver Mantis's SF has a merit reward value over 40 - barely!) and the much higher comparative difficulty of the end-game redside TFs that would be used for incarnate parts (LRSF and 'Cuda compared to STF and Khan)...
There's no rewards-centric reason to be anything other than a pure hero. Period. More merits and/or the same incarnate parts, for easier content, and more content (so you can very easily avoid merit diminishing returns).
And there's a strong disincentive to being a Rogue while doing blueside content - no ability to use base porters or ouroboros for travel blueside, which while ameliorated alot by the train consolidation, is still going to be an issue for end-game players who want to do the shadow shard content, at minimum.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
From a purely rewards standpoint, yes, this is absolutely true. If you are a Hero or Villain, you earn Alignment Merits. If you are a Vigilante or Rogue, you earn more Reward Merits, either because you can earn them through Morality missions (I believe) or because you have twice the opportunity to run Task Forces. So yes, the rewards are intended to be in balance. Heros and Villains should earn rewards a little faster, Vigilantes and Rogues are able to earn rewards in more different ways.
From an accessability standpoint, again, there is supposed to be a balance. Vigilantes and Rogues have access to both Paragon City and the Rogue Isles, and can move freely between them and earn badges. Heroes and Villains cannot move freely between the two, and can only earn half the badges, but they have access to a Lounge that gives them faster access to Task Forces, and can also reduce their travel times for other missions. "Tourists" in the other city also have more trouble travelling quickly.
Finally, there is the question of what kind of teams you play on. If you are often able to find teams on either side with no problems, and you have characters on both sides, then you have little reason to switch them. However, if you are only able to reliably find a team on one side, and you have characters on the other side, it may be helpful to turn them into a Rogue or Vigilante so that you can team on the other side, while still doing the missions and soloing on your native side, so you can continue to experience that content.
In my own case, I find many reasons to leave my characters and Heroes or Villains, or turn them to Vigilantes or Rogues. I have also totally switched sides, either for role playing reasons, or because I want to have an AT unique to one side playable on the other. The rewards actually mean nothing to me, so it comes down to either concept, or wanting to make a cool villain character available to team with the blue side players in the SG I belong to.
I will also add that if you are a Hero or Villain, if you are choosing to concentrate only on A-Merits and nothing else, that means that you are going to be doing nothing but grinding Tip and Morality missions over and over. You will never experience any of the other content of the game. If you run Task Forces or do normal missions for Merits, you will not earn anything any more than a Vigilante or Rogue would earn teaming with you for the same mission. So the innate advantage of being able to earn A-Merits requires you to make the conscious choice to take full advantage of it. To me, that outweighs the reward disadvantage of choosing to go Rogue. (And Vigilante as well, although I will admit that you're opening up WAY less content than a Rogue going blueside)
It is true that A-Merits require a kind of grind but so do most of those sorts of awards. The truly great thing about A-Merits is that you can afford all of the rare recipes with a minimum of SOLO work given time.
A single A-Merit can be worth over a hundred reward merits which is like 4 or 5 big story arcs and you can get it in less than a couple of weeks by running a single tip mission each day before diving into your normal content.
And if you are in the mood to team there are lots of tip teams out there (at least for now) so if I get on one I can rack up 4 or 5 missions toward the next morality doing what I was going to do anyway... join a team for random fun.
Rogues/Vigilantes: Open season on task forces and cross-faction teaming
Heroes/Villains: A-Merits
Both have their upside and downside, it just depends on your particular situation.
although I'd still like more rogue/vigilante-specific content *jabs at Jade* 
j/k
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As long as everyone gets their content, the Rogues and Vigilantes can. |
Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
although I'd still like more rogue/vigilante-specific content *jabs at Jade*
j/k |
That's kind of the point, though. If A-Merits really ARE all that great that no one ever plays Rogues or Vigilantes then obviously the balance will need to be revisited. However, I don't see that happening yet, and I think we need to wait a while before we judge how well the system is working.
There may be individuals who think, "Well, you know, I've found that there's no reason to be anything but a Hero here, and everyone I know is reaching the same conclusion. We're all running these A-Merit missions over and over". But I think if anything this thread shows that it tends to vary according to your own style, and the style of those you tend to group with. So the problem may look bigger just because you're that kind of reward-oriented player.
Someone else is going to say, though, "I don't care about the rewards. I want content. I want to tell some stories. I want something to DO!"
Now, if you're willing to throw a few million inf around, the Merit reward (60) for the second and later reinforcement of Vigilante or Rogue alignment can net you 6 A-merits for every 5 alignment missions...but you need to hold on to the regular merits and then switch your alignment to hero or villain to cash in on that, and even then can only cash in for an A-merit once every 18 hours.
Convoluted? Absolutely. But if that 20% long-term rate in Alignment Merits is worth the 20 million influence/merit and the wait to you, then maybe there is a little advantage to playing the gray side 
*blink*
Well, it's 30 for affirming your rogue or vigilante status (2nd morality) not 60 and now I really do need to go test if a 3rd gains you anything. If you get 30 every time then I'm astounded and pleasently surprised.
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Yes, but those are two fairly useless powers, since they only affect minions and underlings. And the confuse nerfs their damage, IIRC. But the villain brute isn't near as good as some of the others, but it is far better than the rog/vig powers, IMO|
Originally Posted by Renardine
Rogues and Villains can use their specific Alignment powers, too.
If the idea of causing fear or confusion fits your character, this is a role playing reason. |
But at the same time, most of my chars will go rogue/vig, and ignore the powers, merits (and sob as she misses the lovely, lovely merits).
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Let me clarify that by Second Reinforcement, I'm counting as follows|
Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
*blink*
Well, it's 30 for affirming your rogue or vigilante status (2nd morality) not 60 and now I really do need to go test if a 3rd gains you anything. If you get 30 every time then I'm astounded and pleasently surprised. |
First time: Alignment change
Second time: First reinforcement
Third time: Second reinforcement
Since you can email recipes, enhancements, and inf between characters, I don't find that it's that big of a deal to keep my roguish and vigilante characters in those alignments.
Global name: @k26dp
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Well, I'm guessing you can probably get things with A-Merits you can't get with regular Reward Merits (more of the rarer sets) but in terms of straight value, the two rewards are probably about equal. A little less for the Rogues and Vigilantes, of course, but that's expected. |
Originally Posted by Korith
Now, if you're willing to throw a few million inf around, the Merit reward (60) for the second and later reinforcement of Vigilante or Rogue alignment can net you 6 A-merits for every 5 alignment missions...but you need to hold on to the regular merits and then switch your alignment to hero or villain to cash in on that, and even then can only cash in for an A-merit once every 18 hours.
Convoluted? Absolutely. But if that 20% long-term rate in Alignment Merits is worth the 20 million influence/merit and the wait to you, then maybe there is a little advantage to playing the gray side |
If you're right that it's 30 Merits for the first reinforcement of Rogue/Vigilante status, and 60 each time after, and it's 50 Merits for the first reinforcement of Hero/Villain status, and 1 A-Merit for each time after, then it would follow that in theory 1 A-Merit is roughly the equivalent of 100 regular Merits. (twice 50 Merits) Apparently the ratio for the trade in is 50 Merits = 1 A-Merit, but that costs you Influence as well, which apparently adds to the overall value.
This is why I seem to remember it as being 30/60, too. Disregarding the Influence sink, which does allow you to "earn" the A-Merits a bit faster, the regular Merits are pretty valuable too, and probably only earn you a little less than the Hero/Villain version. (30 compared to 50, and 60 compared to 100)
I also seem to remember that you can turn in the first 50 Merits you get for the first Hero/Villain reinforcement for an A-Merit, with 20 mil Inf. So a Hero/Villain can actually get their first A-Merit right away if they want.
A-Merits - out of the recipes you can buy with normal reward merits, the rares cost 1 or 2 (most of the procs or more desired triples/quads) A-merits.
Purple Sets cost about 25 A Merits a recipe, PVP 30-35 A-merits a recipe.
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Don't forget Rogues and Vigilantes are not just left out in the cold as far as rewards for tip missions go.. 60 Reward merits every 2 days can add up very quickly. Now add in the fact that a Vigilante or a Rogue has access to both sides and ALL of the Exploration badges (except one unless they fixed that) so they also can get all of those ZONE exploration accolades and another 5 reward merits per zone... which amounts to over 34 zones that award 5 merits for a total of 170 not to mention the 6 new ones all characters have access to in Preatoria. Obviously this is a much bigger deal for a Rogue since they pick up over 25 hero zones (125 Reward Merits) that a villain can't access.
As metioned Rogues and Vigilantes gain access to added TF/SFs and for the badgers easier access to many defeat badges (Defeating 500 skulls is a LOT simpler in Perez Park hero side than trying to get them in Mercy as a villain) and (Cold demons and Family Bosses , not lieutenants, show up a lot more often in Sharkshead and St. M than on the Hero side).
Not that there aren't advantages to staying a hero or villian but before you even get into the expanded content aspect it's very clear from a rewards stand point that rogues and vigilantes are NOT suffering either
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I had no idea Rogues got 60 merits for additional morality missions beyond the 2nd (I *know* the 2nd is only 30 merits). That changes things drastically.
I'm actually stunned by the news and I forsee several more tip/morality missions in that character's future. I definitely understand now why the new rogue/vigilante-specific tips in the tourist zones do not offer a chance to continue in the gray alignment. Yep. That certainly clears up a lot I didn't understand before.
I have finally been getting my hero merits and see how valuable they are. Then I thought about the one vigilante and one rogue that I have. Is the only significant reason to have one of these so that you can play TFs and SFs on both sides? If I am understanding correctly, you cannot get hero or villain merits. This leads me to believe that I don't want any rogues or vigilantes--I have heros and villains on each server that I play so I don't need a toon that can play both sides, but also misses out on some of the rewards. Tell me what I am not seeing, please.
(Although I do like seeing the new symbols on my character choosing screen...)
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers