Why do so many people want to pull out their IOs?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-30 15:28 in Player Questions
I've no clue why some people are treating this as big a change to slotting as ED, GDN, or the last round of major PvP changes.
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No idea. *shrug*
OK, admittedly on my namesake tank I dropped one APP for another, but that affected about six IOs - the others could still be slotted elsewhere. This isn't *that* major of a change, slotting-wise.
Greed. Plain and simple. This happens every time there's a change in the powers. Some people want to rip everything out of their characters and start over from scratch, or they decide to completely change their builds in a way that will cause them to have to sacrifice some of the enhancements they currently slotted.
Now that won't mean much where the primary and secondary powersets are concerned but it can mean a huge difference where the power pools are concerned. Enhancements for fitness won't fit in Leadership for example. And if they decide to grab a few extra powers from those sets (We can have up to 4 different power pools, 5 if we include the epic/PP sets) that can really change how all the powers are slotted because we didn't get extra slots. (except the free ones that come with Fitness going inherent)
I planned ahead and went thru all my characters prior to I19 and used the freespec we got with GR to pull out the extra enhancements I would have lost had I not planned ahead for today so I find this nerdrage hilarious.
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First, Incarnate does not go below 50.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
I didn't participate in the Issue 19 Betas and I've only took a quick glance through Zombie Man's Incarnates guide. Still, I'm am stumped as to why there had been so much discussion and rants regarding insufficient respecs to pull out Purples/Hamis/etc in preparation for Issue 19?
... Especially since the Alpha Slot doesn't exemplar below 45. ... So, someone enlighten me please. Why were you pulling out enhancements for Issue 19? |
strike that. According to the patch notes, they are supposed to go down to 45. Doesn't match with my own experience when I sk'd an incarnate 50 to a 47 and lost incarnate abilities, but I'll buy that 45 exemp is how it supposed to work, and that it has been fixed / addressed.
Second, as to your actual question, you have to consider that many of the posts from players on these forums are from a distinct minority of the game. The build-help forums are largely contributed to by players who wring every last bit of min-maxed performance out of any particular build.
For many of these min-maxers the Incarnate System offers new opportunities to try different sets that might not be as effective in any particular power.
I don't think there is actually that many people stripping out IO builds because of changes they can make with incarnate abilities.
I'm guessing that a lot of the problem is that because respecs are so tedious to perform, most people either put them off or just don't ever do them. When a change comes along that essentially makes a respec imperative, they decide to make all the changes they've been putting off because they didn't want to do a respec.
I think it's a rather vocal minority myself. I don't really see as how I will be changing any of the ENHANCEMENTS in my build, just respec'ing, where necessary, to include a few additional powers I couldn't fit into the build before.
why?
$$$$$$$
I have several full sets of PvP IOs on the Goat.
I don't PvP, I just slotted them for giggles when they came out cause I liked the scaling bonuses.
Now, they're collectively worth so much the allure of selling them is nigh irresistible.
That alone wasn't enough to make me endure the tedious process of respec'ing, but combined with inherent fitness.....well.
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Procrastination isn't a justifiable excuse. I've been ready for I19 for a month because I used the freespecs we got with GR to get my characters ready for I19. I pulled off all the stuff I had slotted in Fitness on 80+ characters for reslotting when it goes inherent.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I'm guessing that a lot of the problem is that because respecs are so tedious to perform, most people either put them off or just don't ever do them. When a change comes along that essentially makes a respec imperative, they decide to make all the changes they've been putting off because they didn't want to do a respec.
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| I think it's a rather vocal minority myself. I don't really see as how I will be changing any of the ENHANCEMENTS in my build, just respec'ing, where necessary, to include a few additional powers I couldn't fit into the build before. |
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To you, it isn't a justifiable excuse... to me, it is.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Procrastination isn't a justifiable excuse. I've been ready for I19 for a month because I used the freespecs we got with GR to get my characters ready for I19. I pulled off all the stuff I had slotted in Fitness on 80+ characters for reslotting when it goes inherent.
That's the thing, the only characters that actually need a respec are the characters close to 50. They can't add new slots or powers since everything has been selected. The lower level characters can simply pull the fitness enhancements and start tossing the slots back into the build at the next level that allows slots to be added. |
I did not respec at GR, or in October, or last Thursday, because I wanted a fully functional build up until Fitness went inherent. I wanted to be able to do a Task Force on Saturday, if I so desired. I wanted to be able to run a Hami raid on Sunday.
I am taking advantage of Fitness going inherent to finalize my build on my main. This involves a heavy amount of IO's to be resold (or stored, or what have you), and a heavy amount to be purchased (or taken out of my SG bin, or what have you). I didn't want to respec, pull off ten IOs, then have a partially-slotted character at GR. Then, respec again, pull another ten IO's off, and so on.
I'm not whining about insufficient space, I know that this was my choosing, and I will burn whatever respecs I have, and will craft a respec recipe if I must.
It's great that you were proactive and began respeccing months ago, and kudos! But please don't say that what I (or any other player) chooses doesn't meet your justification.
Thank you, Champion.
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From the Patch Notes:|
Originally Posted by je_saist
First, Incarnate does not go below 50.
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Incarnate System
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Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
I had a major respec planned. Then I found out that fitness would be inherent. So I had to tweak that.
I just had one planned and then it made sense to go ahead and wait until I19.
Probably everyone who wanted to do a major respec in the past (however long since fitness change was announced) has waited until now to do their respecs. So there are probably more happening at once than usual.
I suspect many people will do minor respecs too. But, I al;ready had a big one planned. But, I am not complaining about two freespecs. But I would take more if they were available.
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Originally Posted by Bramphousian
To you, it isn't a justifiable excuse... to me, it is.
I did not respec at GR, or in October, or last Thursday, because I wanted a fully functional build up until Fitness went inherent. I wanted to be able to do a Task Force on Saturday, if I so desired. I wanted to be able to run a Hami raid on Sunday. I am taking advantage of Fitness going inherent to finalize my build on my main. This involves a heavy amount of IO's to be resold (or stored, or what have you), and a heavy amount to be purchased (or taken out of my SG bin, or what have you). I didn't want to respec, pull off ten IOs, then have a partially-slotted character at GR. Then, respec again, pull another ten IO's off, and so on. I'm not whining about insufficient space, I know that this was my choosing, and I will burn whatever respecs I have, and will craft a respec recipe if I must. It's great that you were proactive and began respeccing months ago, and kudos! But please don't say that what I (or any other player) chooses doesn't meet your justification. |
That's fine but I haven't seen you posting complaints that you have 40, 50 , 100+ characters and no time to do all the respecs. The people doing that had plenty of time to use the GR freespecs to get the majority of those characters ready for today, then they could finish up the ones they were actually playing at a more relaxed pace.
On a side note who said you had to play a partially slotted character? If you wanted you could have easily filled the empty slots with SO's. Character's don't become unplayable just because you aren't using IO's.
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Interesting. Wasn't like that a few weeks ago, but I'll stand corrected.
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
From the Patch Notes:
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In many cases, I've got things that are, say, ten levels out of date, but which would be worth a substantial amount of money. For instance, my dark/ tanker has procs in Death Shroud, because I thought they'd proc every tick, not every 5 ticks. (Every tick, they'd be good upgrades. Every 5 ticks, they aren't.) I have a recharge slow proc in smoke grenade on a /dev blaster, which turns out to be a bad idea (it turns a non-aggro power into an aggro power).|
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
So, someone enlighten me please. Why were you pulling out enhancements for Issue 19?
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So, mostly, chance to extract things that are worth money instead of just overwriting them.
Oh, I understand about pulling a few enhancements out during a character's normal upgrade path (cheapos-->better stuff or frankenslotting-->Sets-->Purples/PvP) or to swap some powers around to experiment with builds. What I'm asking about is the recent "feeling of urgency" to strip significant quantities of high end enhancements out just for the Alpha Slot or because of Inherent Fitness. If it's because of the Alpha Slot, I'm missing the point. If it's because of Inherent Fitness, it blows my mind!
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I have to respec because I accidentally slotted perfomance shifter in the wrong power. ::sigh:: Thats it.
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It's because people think that the alpha slot is going to completely change the way their character plays so much that they can refuse to slot for a specific bonus and just rely on the alpha slot.
And then they'll realize that by not slotting for a certain bonus and instead relying on the alpha slot, they're only getting +33% to something instead of 95%ish they would have gotten by slotting for it.
That's just the way I see it. Inherent fitness really shouldn't have an effect on slotting aside from "zomg I have a few extra powers I won't be able to slot!"
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
I'm looking at inherent fitness like this. It allows me to grab 4 more minor powers that I normally wouldn't put more than one enhancement in anyway to round out my characters.
The current respec system is outdated, it should have been updated when i9 hit with inventions. The old system was fine, because it was quick and easy to replace SOs. A new system is needed to reflect our current invention system. Plain and simple its a QoL feature long overdue.
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Alpha choice can change how your character works. With the change to fitness, we need to think big picture.|
Originally Posted by Pinny
It's because people think that the alpha slot is going to completely change the way their character plays so much that they can refuse to slot for a specific bonus and just rely on the alpha slot.
And then they'll realize that by not slotting for a certain bonus and instead relying on the alpha slot, they're only getting +33% to something instead of 95%ish they would have gotten by slotting for it. That's just the way I see it. Inherent fitness really shouldn't have an effect on slotting aside from "zomg I have a few extra powers I won't be able to slot!" |
My Elec/WP Brute picked up Gloom, Dark Oblit, and Darkest Night as his 3 new choices. I took slots from his resist shields and dropped them into my new powers. In turn I went with the Cardiac Boost to balance out the loss in resistances.
My Stone Melee/Energy Aura, dipped into the medicine, which was much needed. His attacks are slotted with Kin Combats to softcap his S/L, I took the extra Acc IO to slot out Aid Self. Again I went with Nerve to make up for the Acc loss and will upgrade to the Acc/Def T2 version. This will help softcap Neg Nrg.
Those are just two of my toons that had some huge changes with this issue.
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Not really. |
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
The current respec system is outdated, it should have been updated when i9 hit with inventions. The old system was fine, because it was quick and easy to replace SOs. A new system is needed to reflect our current invention system. Plain and simple its a QoL feature long overdue.
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As far as pulling IOs out goes, the existence of IOs does not change the fact that enhancements are intended to be permanent.
Thus far, the devs have given no indication that they are ever going to reconsider their stance on that. And personally, I haven't ever changed a character so much that I NEEDED to pull more than 10 enhancements off of it.
Now, if you're deleting the character and want to keep the IOs, that's one thing. But if you're deleting the character anyway, what difference does it make if you burn through all of that character's respecs? Are you planning on playing the character again after you delete it?
I would be all for a revamp of how respeccing actually works, as far as being able to go in and make small changes without having to do everything all over again. But keeping only 10 enhancements probably isn't going to change, and I don't really think it should.
I see no reason other than greed why we should be able to keep everything from a character all at once.
It's only a video game, when the servers eventually shut down (probably not for a long while yet) we are all going to lose everything we worked on anyway, so why does it matter that you might lose a few things now?
Sure, you spent time on it, but if you enjoyed that time it was time well spent, regardless of whether you have anything to show for it later. I know people that spend 3-4 hours detailing their car every week, which would seem like wasted time to a lot of people, but they enjoyed doing it, so for them it was time well spent.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, when originally created they were meant to be permanent, that was 6 years ago before IOS existed. Its simply a quality of life request to revamp the respec system. Lots of things changed in those 6 years, they once said no color customization for powers. There was no "need" for the change other then to make the game more aesthetically pleasing. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not really.
As far as pulling IOs out goes, the existence of IOs does not change the fact that enhancements are intended to be permanent. Thus far, the devs have given no indication that they are ever going to reconsider their stance on that. And personally, I haven't ever changed a character so much that I NEEDED to pull more than 10 enhancements off of it. Now, if you're deleting the character and want to keep the IOs, that's one thing. But if you're deleting the character anyway, what difference does it make if you burn through all of that character's respecs? Are you planning on playing the character again after you delete it? I would be all for a revamp of how respeccing actually works, as far as being able to go in and make small changes without having to do everything all over again. But keeping only 10 enhancements probably isn't going to change, and I don't really think it should. I see no reason other than greed why we should be able to keep everything from a character all at once. It's only a video game, when the servers eventually shut down (probably not for a long while yet) we are all going to lose everything we worked on anyway, so why does it matter that you might lose a few things now? Sure, you spent time on it, but if you enjoyed that time it was time well spent, regardless of whether you have anything to show for it later. I know people that spend 3-4 hours detailing their car every week, which would seem like wasted time to a lot of people, but they enjoyed doing it, so for them it was time well spent. |
Yes, the servers will shutdown one day and we will lose everything anyway. That's the life of online games, but, the games alive and well today.
How is it Greed? I worked for my IOs, I farmed, I worked the market. I wasn't handed everything my toons have. I see no good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to keep what I've worked for.
Edit: Just to add, a majority of the IOs I did pull out with my respecs went to friends who needed them. Again I ask, how is that Greed?
Edit 2: I see enhancements as assets, we should be able to move assets without hindrances. If I bought a computer for an office, say I upgrade it with another computer years later. Should I be required to throw that computer out? Why not donate it to someone who needs it?
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No one is saying you can't keep it. It just requires more effort than a lot of people are willing to go through. |
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
How is it Greed? I worked for my IOs, I farmed, I worked the market. I wasn't handed everything my toons have. I see no good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to keep what I've worked for.
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Personally, I don't ever bother with IOs until I'm absolutely certain I am keeping the character. And I have never changed any of their builds to the point that I need to pull out 20 IOs because I can't use them anymore.
You say you earned your IOs. Okay, I won't dispute that, I'm sure you did. But what is stopping you from earning them for the new character you want them on? That way you have IOs on the new character, and your old character is still just as powerful as they were before. It's a win/win.
Perhaps I misspoke on the greed comment, it's really more like stinginess, with a dose of laziness. A lot of people go to the effort of IOing out a character and then decide that they'd rather just use the same IOs on a new character rather than go to the effort of earning them again. Again, why would you strip the IOs from one character to use them on another, when you could just IO the second character with new ones and have TWO IOed characters? Upgrading with higher level IOs only gives you a fraction of a percent of additional effectiveness, is that 2.1% more end reduction really worth it?
Or is it a case of people wanting to play the newest flavor of the month and they don't want to go to the effort of IOing them out because they are going to play the next flavor of the month when it becomes popular?
Me? I don't play FOTM characters unless I actually have an interest in the sets, so I'm not going to ditch a character because something else came out that will do the same thing slightly better.
There is also the point that, as of right now, IOs are still optional. You don't need to use them, you want to use them. That may change in the future, but I wouldn't bet on it.
The only way to increase how many IOs we can remove from a character would be to increase the number of enhancements we can carry at a time. I don't think the devs will be too keen on the idea of allowing an individual character to carry upwards of 60 enhancements at once, because that would enable the hoarding mentality they have expressed concern over.
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| Yes, when originally created they were meant to be permanent, that was 6 years ago before IOS existed. Its simply a quality of life request to revamp the respec system. Lots of things changed in those 6 years, they once said no color customization for powers. There was no "need" for the change other then to make the game more aesthetically pleasing. |
Their stance on pulling more than 10 enhancements in a respec is similar to their stance on allowing a full respec of primary and secondary powersets. They didn't say no because they can't do it, they said no because it is something they do not want us to be able to do. If and when they change their stance on that it may change, but "We want this thing you keep outright telling us NO about"* isn't going to change their minds.
(* Is a rough approximation of what every post demanding this change is essentially saying, whether the poster realizes it or not)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a couple characters that I worked to fully enhance their second builds when that feature was instituted. As time as gone on, I've found my primary build to be more than adequate and never use the second. Up to this point I have been too lazy to do anything about it. |
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
So, someone enlighten me please. Why were you pulling out enhancements for Issue 19?
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Now, with the inherent fitness change, I am motivated to respec and decided to pull unused IOs out of the second build, distribute some to alts and cash in to the tune of 1.5B so far (hurray for snapping up PvP IOs back when they were cheap).
All that said, I've got at least one more respec to do to finish stripping the second build. Tedious - but my own choice so no one to complain to but myself - plenty of unused vet respecs.
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Sometimes changes warrant more room to work with when respecing your toons. When the Invun changes came, I totally redid the IOs on my Invun toon. It required 2 respecs to remove IOs w/o losing inf from their net worth. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
No one is saying you can't keep it. It just requires more effort than a lot of people are willing to go through.
Personally, I don't ever bother with IOs until I'm absolutely certain I am keeping the character. And I have never changed any of their builds to the point that I need to pull out 20 IOs because I can't use them anymore. You say you earned your IOs. Okay, I won't dispute that, I'm sure you did. But what is stopping you from earning them for the new character you want them on? That way you have IOs on the new character, and your old character is still just as powerful as they were before. It's a win/win. Perhaps I misspoke on the greed comment, it's really more like stinginess, with a dose of laziness. A lot of people go to the effort of IOing out a character and then decide that they'd rather just use the same IOs on a new character rather than go to the effort of earning them again. Again, why would you strip the IOs from one character to use them on another, when you could just IO the second character with new ones and have TWO IOed characters? Upgrading with higher level IOs only gives you a fraction of a percent of additional effectiveness, is that 2.1% more end reduction really worth it? Or is it a case of people wanting to play the newest flavor of the month and they don't want to go to the effort of IOing them out because they are going to play the next flavor of the month when it becomes popular? Me? I don't play FOTM characters unless I actually have an interest in the sets, so I'm not going to ditch a character because something else came out that will do the same thing slightly better. There is also the point that, as of right now, IOs are still optional. You don't need to use them, you want to use them. That may change in the future, but I wouldn't bet on it. The only way to increase how many IOs we can remove from a character would be to increase the number of enhancements we can carry at a time. I don't think the devs will be too keen on the idea of allowing an individual character to carry upwards of 60 enhancements at once, because that would enable the hoarding mentality they have expressed concern over. And once again you bring up color customization as something they said "no" on and later changed their minds, while ignoring the fact that they originally said no because they lacked the manpower to get it done, rather than because they didn't want us to have it. If they had the employees back then that they have now, it probably would have been done a long time ago. Their stance on pulling more than 10 enhancements in a respec is similar to their stance on allowing a full respec of primary and secondary powersets. They didn't say no because they can't do it, they said no because it is something they do not want us to be able to do. If and when they change their stance on that it may change, but "We want this thing you keep outright telling us NO about"* isn't going to change their minds. (* Is a rough approximation of what every post demanding this change is essentially saying, whether the poster realizes it or not) |
Granted sets don't change drastically all that often, its honestly a silly argument. What's really wrong with a rework of the respec system? A QoL feature many would enjoy. All I'm saying is a feature introduced in Issue 2, 7 issues before IOs were introduced is outdated.
Yes, they lacked the man power to introduce customization. But, businesses are always subject to manpower. With enough manpower nearly anything is possible to code into the game.
A simple fix instead of allowing more then ten enhancements being held. It would be to allow level 50 toons to drag enhancements from their powers. I have no idea how much would be required to code this feature.
As an example of how this feature would be great is when IOs are changed. When the PGT changes went through, I had to respec my whole toon. Would of been nice just to slide the enhancements out and move my slots to something else. I guess MIDS has spoiled me to this possibility. I would personally love to the know where the Devs stand on this.
I didn't participate in the Issue 19 Betas and I've only took a quick glance through Zombie Man's Incarnates guide. Still, I'm am stumped as to why there had been so much discussion and rants regarding insufficient respecs to pull out Purples/Hamis/etc in preparation for Issue 19?
Other than Inherent Fitness, which I assume if you had it previously, you would pretty much keep your current slotting. And if you didn't have it before, you may just put something new into the default slot. So why is there such a need to what sounds like a massive overhaul in the character's overall build?
If your current build was already min-maxed for Issue 18 content, what will messing with it do? Especially since the Alpha Slot doesn't exemplar below 45. What I've read about the Alpha Slot is that it'll give you a global boost. A boost which you will need for the Incarnate TFs.
So, someone enlighten me please. Why were you pulling out enhancements for Issue 19?
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.