Why do so many people want to pull out their IOs?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-30 15:28 in Player Questions
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Yes, I'm quoting myself because I wanted to elaborate on this point. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The only way to increase how many IOs we can remove from a character would be to increase the number of enhancements we can carry at a time. I don't think the devs will be too keen on the idea of allowing an individual character to carry upwards of 60 enhancements at once, because that would enable the hoarding mentality they have expressed concern over.
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The only feasible way to increase the number of enhancements we can keep when respeccing is to increase the number we can carry at a time. Now, with the devs' stance on people hoarding IOs (they don't want it happening), giving us more enhancement inventory would be completely counterproductive as far as their stated goals go. (Granted there may be differences in opinion within the offices, but I'm going on what we know of their official stance.)
Currently, we can have 132 characters before any extra character slots are factored in. That's 1,320 enhancements one player can sit on. We can have up to 396 characters maximum, that is 3,960 enhancements. If we are given the ability to hold, say, 60 enhancements per character (enough to pull the vast majority of the enhancements in a build, which is what seems to be the request), those numbers would increase to 7,920 and 23,760 respectively. That's a LOT of enhancements that could be hoarded.
Also, what would happen to the market when the marketeers realize that now they CAN corner the market on a particular IO? Currently, a marketeer can really only corner the market on a particular purple set or IO/Recipe. Most don't bother because it isn't practical for them to do so, due to limited ability to store the results, and the fact that it would limit their ability to do other things with the market.
There are people with enough cash that, if they were so inclined, they could buy up all of, or the majority of any particular thing they want to work with. At the moment, their ability to do that is limited by storage space. If their storage space were increased from 1,320 to 7,920 that would give them a lot more ability to sit on stuff without hindering their ability to actually work the market.
It probably wouldn't have a huge effect on the majority of the IOs on the market, because they are fairly easily obtained. But the things like purples and PvP IOs, which are harder to acquire, could jump in price dramatically as marketeers start placing bids for a lot of them at once, knowing they can store everything they buy that way. Sure, it would benefit the people selling them as prices go up, but it would be probable that you just sold it to the person or people trying to lock that market down.
Would it definitely happen? No, nothing is definite where things like this are concerned, but the possibility would definitely exist. With the devs' stance on hoarding, allowing this would completely undermine everything they have done to prevent it.
And if you don't think anyone would go out of their way to do that if they suddenly could without hurting their other profits, well you are either remarkably naive, or have a great deal more faith in your fellow humans than I do. A number of people in the market forums have already documented their attempts at raising the price of one set or another, letting them store more stuff would only make that easier to do. With practically unlimited storage space, a few like-minded marketeers could almost completely lock down purple sets and pretty much charge whatever they want for them. It's hard enough for your average player to afford stuff like that as it is, why make it harder?
People keep looking at the convenience factor of being able to pull more enhancements in a respec, while glossing over or outright ignoring the potentially disastrous side effects. What I mentioned here is just one of the possibilities.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'm completely with Gypsy of Paradox that the notion that getting back 10 enhancements from a respec is "generous" is quite antiquated and not in step with how the game has progressed.
The fact that you can only hold 10 enhancements is irrelevant, there certainly have to be other alternatives available. Even allowing e-mail to be accessible during a respec would allow for another 20 enhancments to be held. I think that (30) would be a magic number to satisfy those of us that find the current respec restrictions insufficient. Certainly there are other more creative ways to go about this as well.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
@ClawsandEffect
Holding just ten is fine by me, too much would clutter up the game. How do you feel about being able to pull out enhancements at 50 straight from the enhancement screen? Just drag them into the "holding" bar, whats done with it after at user discretion.
@Deacon_NA
What annoys me about the email system is only being able to mail things one at a time. Seeing as groups are not co-op and my main group is villains side. I find myself sending lots of things back and forth to either be stored or slotted. Being able to mail maybe 5 at a time would be very nice. Of course the Devs could just make groups Co-Op and I'll shut the hell up. 
I don't have a problem spending multiple respecs if I really want to remove more than 10 items. It WOULD be a nice QoL change, but it's not something I'm demanding.
This is only the second time it has come up for me though.
First, when IOs were originally introduced and my main had over 40 Hamidon Enhancements which I did NOT want to overwrite. I spent FIVE respecs over the course of Months to fully change her over from HOs to IOs.
This is the second time, but it's only going to take three this time (one last week, one this week, one next week).
However, in my case it is just that the multiple freespecs give me the opportunity to change my build in a way I wanted and inherent Fitness gives me the space in the build.
Again, I don't mind the current system (though I do have some suggestions for the respec interface) but my example shows why some people might want it changed. Should I really have needed Five respecs to change from HOs when IOs were introduced?
At the time I only had 2 Vetspecs and Respec Recipes and Purchasable Respecs had yet to be introduced.
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Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
What annoys me about the email system is only being able to mail things one at a time. Seeing as groups are not co-op and my main group is villains side. I find myself sending lots of things back and forth to either be stored or slotted. Being able to mail maybe 5 at a time would be very nice. Of course the Devs could just make groups Co-Op and I'll shut the hell up.
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Yeah I find it annoying myself. I wish they'd at least give us an explanation as to why it's limited to only 1 item per email. If theres a technical reason then it's possible they may increase the amount in the future once it's fixed. If it's a reason similar to why we can only pull 10 enhancements from a build . . . I may not like it but hopefully in time they'll change their minds and let us send multiple items.
To sum up: This isn't a Inherent Fitness or an Incarnate issue, this is a "respec'ing is annoying as hell" issue. Which I can agree with, although for me it's more about restoring my trays and trying to somehow maintain my macros.
(Particularly with a bug that, when you delete certain temp powers, causes the first slot in the tray to be deleted instead of the slot clicked. Hint, hint, hint, devs)
I'd still go with a "partial respec" that you could buy at the Market maybe, or as a recipe, which allows you to unlock 10 or 20 Enhancements so you can drag them back to the tray instead of the trash. Or even move them around from power to power, or even slot to slot in the same power. (I'm mentioned before that I'm obsessive compulsive, and like to have my Enhancements in a strict order in a power. First Acc, then End, then Dam, etc...)
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Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
The current respec system is outdated, it should have been updated when i9 hit with inventions. The old system was fine, because it was quick and easy to replace SOs. A new system is needed to reflect our current invention system. Plain and simple its a QoL feature long overdue.
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Ya know !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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agreed. This is my main complaint about this. This system was great 5 years BEFORE IO's existed. Plain and simple the system needs an upgrade...
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm completely with Gypsy of Paradox that the notion that getting back 10 enhancements from a respec is "generous" is quite antiquated and not in step with how the game has progressed.
The fact that you can only hold 10 enhancements is irrelevant, there certainly have to be other alternatives available. Even allowing e-mail to be accessible during a respec would allow for another 20 enhancments to be held. I think that (30) would be a magic number to satisfy those of us that find the current respec restrictions insufficient. Certainly there are other more creative ways to go about this as well. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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One purpose of making Enhancements semi-permanent is that provides an influence sink. There is no MMO out there that just allows you to remove equipment and trade it freely with no consequence. The problem with recycling IOs is that it removes the demand for any more IOs. Once enough IOs exist in the game for them simply to be shuffled around by players as they are needed, the demand for new ones will dry up. |
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
Holding just ten is fine by me, too much would clutter up the game. How do you feel about being able to pull out enhancements at 50 straight from the enhancement screen? Just drag them into the "holding" bar, whats done with it after at user discretion.
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Yes, you spend money and effort on your IOs, but that's where the value of the respec it takes to pull them out comes from. Not only are the IOs valuable, because it takes effort to remove them from a build where they are in use, but it makes the respecs a tradable commodity as well, because they can be traded in for the value of the previously slotted IOs.
Maybe it would be more useful if you could remove 20 or 30 Enhancements per respec, but IMO the issue is more one of convenience and usability of the interface. Using a respect to remove IOs is a problem not because the limit on the number of IOs, but the amount of time that is taken and potential for disruption to your build if you make a mistake.
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It's a poor one. It affects the general level of inf in the game by a really minor amount and effectively keeps prices higher by destroying supply at a much higher rate than money available for demand.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
One purpose of making Enhancements semi-permanent is that provides an influence sink.
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And purchasable respecs don't help much, since they still represent the same annoyance level of doing a respec, and they only remove the WW cut and the crafting cost. Sell respecs for a flat 200 mil from a vendor and make the process less painful and that would be a real inf sink since all the inf spent would be sucked out of the economy instead of just shifting it around amongst players.
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I slot IOs in the exact order the set lists them that way I can tell at a glance which I'm missing.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
To sum up: This isn't a Inherent Fitness or an Incarnate issue, this is a "respec'ing is annoying as hell" issue. Which I can agree with, although for me it's more about restoring my trays and trying to somehow maintain my macros.
(Particularly with a bug that, when you delete certain temp powers, causes the first slot in the tray to be deleted instead of the slot clicked. Hint, hint, hint, devs) I'd still go with a "partial respec" that you could buy at the Market maybe, or as a recipe, which allows you to unlock 10 or 20 Enhancements so you can drag them back to the tray instead of the trash. Or even move them around from power to power, or even slot to slot in the same power. (I'm mentioned before that I'm obsessive compulsive, and like to have my Enhancements in a strict order in a power. First Acc, then End, then Dam, etc...) |
The respec system is outdated and just a hassle. I hate redoing my entire build just to move 1 slot around.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Which is why I suggested a "mini-respec" that would basically only bring up the Enhancement slotting screen. No change to your powers, no rearranging trays afterwards, you just skip to the function you're actually using the respec for. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
And purchasable respecs don't help much, since they still represent the same annoyance level of doing a respec, and they only remove the WW cut and the crafting cost.
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Alternately, it could be some sort of unlock mechanism which would enable you to move around a subset or all of the currently slotted Enhancements. Newly slotted Enhancements would be "permanent" until you purchased another unlock, though.
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Actually I am approaching it similarly also. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I'm guessing that a lot of the problem is that because respecs are so tedious to perform, most people either put them off or just don't ever do them. When a change comes along that essentially makes a respec imperative, they decide to make all the changes they've been putting off because they didn't want to do a respec.
I think it's a rather vocal minority myself. I don't really see as how I will be changing any of the ENHANCEMENTS in my build, just respec'ing, where necessary, to include a few additional powers I couldn't fit into the build before. |
Basically going to just add certain powers to see if they are worthwhile on certain toons with the inherent stamina.
The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head (since I am at work right now) is that I have an old lev 50 Super Strength/Willpower Tank....
that for some reason I never grabbed "Handclap" because of running out of power choices if memory serves.
So I know I will nab it just to see how it plays with a newer build and stuff.
I know I have other toons that I will re-do a lot more because of the inherent stamina. The ones that come to mind easily are the ones that have anything to do with Dark Armor, LOL
@Patrick Magellen
Infinity & Freedom Servers!
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If easily replaceable SOs made 10 enhancements "generous" then wouldn't ten IOs be "Just about right"? |
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm completely with Gypsy of Paradox that the notion that getting back 10 enhancements from a respec is "generous" is quite antiquated and not in step with how the game has progressed.
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Since the game doesn't keep track of when we put what slots where, what's up with making us go 2 or three slots at a time? Why not just give us our whole lump to stick in 67 at a time?
The 10 enhancement limit on saving is directly related to the fact to the limit on our character's enhancement bar. If you increase the number to 20 then the bar also needs to change and right now it's designed to be just like our power bars. Of course it was designed before we had an inventory system/window so maybe the devs could look into moving them over there.
However that also means the power/enhancement screen needs to be changed to incorporate the "new" method of storing enhancements.
So it's not a trivial change.
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Because otherwise you can 6 slot the power you took at level 49.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
Since the game doesn't keep track of when we put what slots where, what's up with making us go 2 or three slots at a time? Why not just give us our whole lump to stick in 67 at a time?
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Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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i just recently went through a respec issue, and actually posted a thread on it as well looking for individual strategies that might be useful to them to minimize loss via the fewest respecs possible.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
To sum up: This isn't a Inherent Fitness or an Incarnate issue, this is a "respec'ing is annoying as hell" issue. Which I can agree with, although for me it's more about restoring my trays and trying to somehow maintain my macros.
(Particularly with a bug that, when you delete certain temp powers, causes the first slot in the tray to be deleted instead of the slot clicked. Hint, hint, hint, devs) |
it seemed like i was asking if i can breathe gasoline and drink bleach while singing if i only had a brain .
one of my early mains that had been shelved for quite a while (say, i11-12 for the most part, created in i4) and was loaded with a mixed bag of hami o's and io's. look up the cost of a membrane, right now it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 200m each. multiply that by 10, then add a variety of other io's and we get to a point of marginally ridiculous to simply trash a billion inf .
would you simply trash a billion? or leave it up to wolfe to give you a 'fair deal' on anything other than a single origin enhancement?
i'm sure to some it's not a big deal at all. nethergoat for instance could probably crap the inf i'd need while brushing his pointed teeth and rinsing with the tears of many a cynical buyer. any fun i had with the market was a long time ago, and now i find the auction house a chore to be generally avoided.
in the end, i used 2 respecs to pull the top 20. so far, the cytos, membranes, and io's removed have grossed about 1.1-1.2b inf, and there are still some left.
it's not fitness, and it's not min maxing per se, it's basically having to redo the character from a nearish scratch perspective and not wanting to have to farm for the next 6 months.
Kittens give Morbo gas.
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Originally Posted by spice_weasel
i just recently went through a respec issue, and actually posted a thread on it as well looking for individual strategies that might be useful to them to minimize loss via the fewest respecs possible.
it seemed like i was asking if i can breathe gasoline and drink bleach while singing if i only had a brain . one of my early mains that had been shelved for quite a while (say, i11-12 for the most part, created in i4) and was loaded with a mixed bag of hami o's and io's. look up the cost of a membrane, right now it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 200m each. multiply that by 10, then add a variety of other io's and we get to a point of marginally ridiculous to simply trash a billion inf . would you simply trash a billion? or leave it up to wolfe to give you a 'fair deal' on anything other than a single origin enhancement? i'm sure to some it's not a big deal at all. nethergoat for instance could probably crap the inf i'd need while brushing his pointed teeth and rinsing with the tears of many a cynical buyer. any fun i had with the market was a long time ago, and now i find the auction house a chore to be generally avoided. in the end, i used 2 respecs to pull the top 20. so far, the cytos, membranes, and io's removed have grossed about 1.1-1.2b inf, and there are still some left. it's not fitness, and it's not min maxing per se, it's basically having to redo the character from a nearish scratch perspective and not wanting to have to farm for the next 6 months. |
Which is what I said earlier. It's motivated by greed. Some people don't want to "spend" all that time and infuence again.
Maybe "miserly" is a better word than "greed".
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I don't suppose I'd have any major issue with it. However, I don't think you should be allowed to do it just anytime you want to. If you had to do something (not anything difficult mind you) in order to do it, it'd be somewhat fair.|
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
@ClawsandEffect
Holding just ten is fine by me, too much would clutter up the game. How do you feel about being able to pull out enhancements at 50 straight from the enhancement screen? Just drag them into the "holding" bar, whats done with it after at user discretion. |
Edit: Had a brainstorm while driving to work.
The devs have been looking for effective inf sinks, so make it a fixed price temp power available at the auction house. Set the price at something like 50 million per temp power, and each temp power will let you pull up to 10 enhancements. So, if you want to strip an entire character it will cost you upwards of 500 million, which is still cheaper than buying 5 respec recipes from the market, and isn't as much of a pain. (Anyone who has a character completely IOed out with stuff worth keeping should be able to afford it)
It wouldn't let you move slots around, but you could pull IOs you have slotted.
The devs get an effective inf sink, and the players get a way to move IOs off characters, everyone wins.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
That (the above post by Claws) is a compromise that works for me.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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That's a nice compromise. You should post it under Suggestions.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I don't suppose I'd have any major issue with it. However, I don't think you should be allowed to do it just anytime you want to. If you had to do something (not anything difficult mind you) in order to do it, it'd be somewhat fair.
Edit: Had a brainstorm while driving to work. The devs have been looking for effective inf sinks, so make it a fixed price temp power available at the auction house. Set the price at something like 50 million per temp power, and each temp power will let you pull up to 10 enhancements. So, if you want to strip an entire character it will cost you upwards of 500 million, which is still cheaper than buying 5 respec recipes from the market, and isn't as much of a pain. (Anyone who has a character completely IOed out with stuff worth keeping should be able to afford it) It wouldn't let you move slots around, but you could pull IOs you have slotted. The devs get an effective inf sink, and the players get a way to move IOs off characters, everyone wins. |
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Not a bad idea, but I think the price might need to be a bit higher. I'd say between 7.5million and 10million per IO. That discourages people from using it to pull out the really cheap stuff (which often goes in that price range).
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The devs have been looking for effective inf sinks, so make it a fixed price temp power available at the auction house. Set the price at something like 50 million per temp power, and each temp power will let you pull up to 10 enhancements. So, if you want to strip an entire character it will cost you upwards of 500 million, which is still cheaper than buying 5 respec recipes from the market, and isn't as much of a pain. (Anyone who has a character completely IOed out with stuff worth keeping should be able to afford it)
It wouldn't let you move slots around, but you could pull IOs you have slotted. The devs get an effective inf sink, and the players get a way to move IOs off characters, everyone wins. |
Just a guess here. From what I can gather about the alpha slot - depending on which one you choose, some folks will no longer need hasten, or perhaps they used a "mule" power to hold a LOTG global recharge - and with the recharge boost from the alpha, they may no longer need that mule.
I know I pulled out my HOs simply to sell them. In my mind, they're pretty much worthless - Wentworths has several IO sets that will do the same thing and provide other boosts as well. (admittedly, the IO sets may not provide the same percentages)
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