How long will the exploits go on?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-11-24 20:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Come on, don't blame the actual authors. Blame the cheaters. Rarely do they turn out to be the same people.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
AE authors, as we've seen, will find and exploit any loophole in the reward system that exists, so the metrics would need to work independently of the devs deliberately making them work.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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I'm sure you were trying to make a point, but "cheaters" are AE mission authors too. I'm not aware of any especially dignified common-use version of the term "author" that makes it obvious that it should only be applied to people putting in good stories or otherwise quality content, especially in this context.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Come on, don't blame the actual authors. Blame the cheaters. Rarely do they turn out to be the same people.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I would bet money that the early devs thought that 10% attribute buffs to max HP and endurance were piddling rewards that no one would chase after. I might lose that bet, but it seems really likely to me.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Interesting. To be honest if that's how the Devs wanted the badge system to work they probably shouldn't have put in accolade powers that buff people's characters.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It's always funny when the ******* piece of crap forum software punts me in the middle of a thread two days earlier than the earliest post I ever saw in it and almost makes me necro something stupid, all because it is completely unable to keep track of what I'm read and constantly insists on tagging old posts I've read as "new" and taking me to them, instead. I'm surprised I wasn't "forgotten" just trying to make this post.
What this has to do with this thread is the forum software reminded me of some particularly stupid things said WAY earlier in the thread that I wasn't aware of, and which I almost responded to.
*edit*
Oh, no, I wasn't forgotten before posting this. I was forgotten IMMEDIATELY AFTER posting this. Remind me again why we had to swap forum software?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This forum software sucks.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's always funny when the ******* piece of crap forum software punts me in the middle of a thread two days earlier than the earliest post I ever saw in it and almost makes me necro something stupid, all because it is completely unable to keep track of what I'm read and constantly insists on tagging old posts I've read as "new" and taking me to them, instead. I'm surprised I wasn't "forgotten" just trying to make this post.
What this has to do with this thread is the forum software reminded me of some particularly stupid things said WAY earlier in the thread that I wasn't aware of, and which I almost responded to. |
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You're free to believe that, but recognize that if you take the next step and say that because the devs allow farming, the devs must honor farming, you'd be wrong. Not in a debate sense, but simply in the sense that they won't, and no one should be surprised when they don't. As I said, they won't go too far out of their way to stop (non-exploitive) farming, but they also have no problem with interfering with it by side-effect.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Uh....they added an economy.
=P Farming is an inherent quality of the genre, or rather an instinctive response many gamers have to challenges or goals. Give a group of gamers a goal and they will find efficient, repeatable ways to accomplish it. You can intend exactly the opposite, but oh well, there it is anyway. As with a lot of stuff dev intent is irrelevant- to belabor my car metaphor, you can intend people to push it around the block as a grueling physical workout, but if you leave the keys in the ignition they're gonna peel out for Vegas. Posi intended for players to use MA one way, but the reward structure guaranteed it would be farmed six ways to Sunday. So you can say they never deliberately yadda yadda yadda....so? They made an MMO, the farming follows directly and inevitably from that. |
That's what I mean when I say they do not encourage it. You can do it, but don't expect the devs to help, and don't expect the devs to worry about hurting the activity either. It is in that sense that dev intent is highly relevant. Its relevant to all the people that act surprised when the devs act contrary to a highly inaccurate assumption of their intent.
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then why waste time creating them?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I would bet money that the early devs thought that 10% attribute buffs to max HP and endurance were piddling rewards that no one would chase after.
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Clearly they expected at least some % of their customers would be engaged by this system and pursue the rewards.
2004 (or whenever they added badges) was a long time ago , but gamers were still gamers.
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There's a difference in something that people would pursue and something where people go "Huh, neat. That's nice." My bet is that they viewed the +max accolades as the latter. I mean, the whole discussion is about how they imagined people wouldn't pursue the badges, but each of those buffs has multiple badges in front of it calling for many hundreds of mob defeats.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
then why waste time creating them?
Clearly they expected at least some % of their customers would be engaged by this system and pursue the rewards. 2004 (or whenever they added badges) was a long time ago , but gamers were still gamers. |
Just more generally on the topic of "farming" for badges, the kicker for me is the stuff like defeat badges that no one would ever reach through what we usually consider normal play, because they would outlevel the foes in question. How else are we going to defeat 100 Outcast bosses than to go looking for them? I mean, I know we level faster today than we once did, but I can't imagine anyone getting that badge "normally".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I don't care how people play the game. I really don't. Thing is, the AE exploits DO affect me. I'm not talking down the line, like real money businesses, or causing expensive salvage and lack of recipes - that's all after the fact.
What I hate is the incredible influx of complete jerks running around. Hateful bile, spewing out on broadcast... if I wanted to hear that stuff, I'd watch reality TV.
I thought a title change was in order.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It depends. People are broadcasting MA farms right now on Freedom.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I thought a title change was in order.
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Actually, I think the title change is appropriate regardless, but, in direct response to your point... This happened after the last exploit fix too. Some people were so dense they didn't even notice that their favorite farm mish was "broken". It took well into mid-day before people stopped broadcasting for farm maps that no longer worked. So are you sure that the farms still work? And are they broadcasting for the old exploit, or something new?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This I agree with. I don't think its just related to AE though. I think its a general decline in the games community. I believe its more related to IOs than AE though.
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
I don't care how people play the game. I really don't. Thing is, the AE exploits DO affect me. I'm not talking down the line, like real money businesses, or causing expensive salvage and lack of recipes - that's all after the fact.
What I hate is the incredible influx of complete jerks running around. Hateful bile, spewing out on broadcast... if I wanted to hear that stuff, I'd watch reality TV. |
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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Not all MA farms are monkey farms.
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Originally Posted by Robot
It depends. People are broadcasting MA farms right now on Freedom.
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What better for the health of the game? A childish community or no community?
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Originally Posted by James_Donner
This I agree with. I don't think its just related to AE though. I think its a general decline in the games community. I believe its more related to IOs than AE though.
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Portland, OR Global Chat Channel: PDX
Comic Book Discussion Global Chat Channel: Comic Books
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Exactly right. Some of the best old farms can be re-created through the AE. Family, Behemouths, BM Warriors and repeatable by default. It's a perfect farming tool.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
Not all MA farms are monkey farms.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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warm Schlitz!|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
you're going to have to settle for a warm Schlitz
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I'm willing to bet the naive expectation back then was that while perhaps a few people might go out of the way, the general behavior would be a surprised "Oh! I got something NEAT! YAY! I'm AWESOME!" And go on with their day.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
then why waste time creating them?
Clearly they expected at least some % of their customers would be engaged by this system and pursue the rewards. 2004 (or whenever they added badges) was a long time ago , but gamers were still gamers. |
Designers tend to think innocent and pure thoughts like that when they're new.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Kinda tired of hearing that people who come to the boards to gloat about their bug abuse are being victimized. If you benefited from this bug and didn't know it it's one thing. If you benefited from it, then came to the boards to taunt the developers... well let's just say I think of you like the guy who peed in the lobby of the Ritz to protest the price of room service after winning a free holiday in a contest he didn't qualify for.
Further, we are not talking about a "farm." Nothing in this thread has anything to do with farming in general, and attempts to portray it otherwise are misleading. What we are talking about is an extreme case of bug abuse--intentionally breaking the XP system by manipulating values in the AE a way that causes it to award hundreds of times (using Arcana's info) as much XP as it should for one-shotting Underlings. To hear some people tell it, they deserve a medal for pulling one over on the devs. How ridiculous.
Our relationship with the game developers is not adversarial. They are not our enemies. Nor are they some kind of angry, cheapskate god that leaves us starving for experience, forced to scrounge for every illicit scrap of it we can spirit away from them.
A number of people have asked what the harm in abusing exploits for maximum personal gain. The answer to that is it changes the entire focus of the game. It changes because this "game" is actually a "place" that happens to have a set of rules, some of which are hardcoded and others of which are social. It does effect a game when the social rules change.
Finally, we cannot ensure that there will never be bugs again. Anyone who insists on that hasn't worked in software development a day in their life. If you're going to abuse this bug at least have the dignity to take 50% of the blame, or you just sound like the lady who sued McDonald's for making her kids fat.
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You know, not that everything else you said wasn't good, but this little bit there is a truth that is so completely missed by many people, it boggles the mind.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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Our relationship with the game developers is not adversarial. They are not our enemies. Nor are they some kind of angry, cheapskate god that leaves us starving for experience, forced to scrounge for every illicit scrap of it we can spirit away from them. ... |
I do believe that quote right there is sig worthy!
Well said!
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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I understand where you're coming from, but ask yourself this: How well would the IO system work out if absolutely no one farmed for anything ever? My guess is "not very well." Does this mean I think the Devs support farming? No. But the simple act of non-exploitive farming for drops does absolutely nothing to hurt the game and instead actually helps the supply side of things when it comes to IO's.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're free to believe that, but recognize that if you take the next step and say that because the devs allow farming, the devs must honor farming, you'd be wrong. Not in a debate sense, but simply in the sense that they won't, and no one should be surprised when they don't. As I said, they won't go too far out of their way to stop (non-exploitive) farming, but they also have no problem with interfering with it by side-effect.
That's what I mean when I say they do not encourage it. You can do it, but don't expect the devs to help, and don't expect the devs to worry about hurting the activity either. It is in that sense that dev intent is highly relevant. Its relevant to all the people that act surprised when the devs act contrary to a highly inaccurate assumption of their intent. |
If the Devs were to actually patch something in that somehow prevented any sort of farming at all, you can bet the IO system would crash and burn. In that sense they really should concern themselves with hurting the activity, IMHO.
Monkeygeddon is here
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Yeah. This is why I said earlier that if an exploit is relatively short-lived, I don't worry about it much. When they live on, more and more people start getting involved. It's one thing when something is going on more or less quietly. If at some point, it starts noticeably reshaping the everyday interactions between someone who isn't even using it with other players, or proxy interfaces for other players (such as in-game markets), then you know it's almost certainly been going on too long.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
A number of people have asked what the harm in abusing exploits for maximum personal gain. The answer to that is it changes the entire focus of the game. It changes because this "game" is actually a "place" that happens to have a set of rules, some of which are hardcoded and others of which are social. It does effect a game when the social rules change.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I fixed it. Hopefully, Mod XX won't be too angry....