A change in the anti-oneshot code
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-11-23 15:53 in Suggestions and Ideas
This suggestion is good and the way oneshot protection should be handled in pretty much any game.
I think it makes sense as a way to make defense less luck dependent.
Of course there are some things about CoH specifically (too easy, few oneshots, and ability of any build to cap defense) that interfere, so the myopic suggestion hate brigade has to mob the heretic rather than just discussing how those things could be made compatible.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Not entirely true. In the main game, yes, but in AE it's possible to make bosses with the ability to one-shot. It's happened to me from 100% to 0% by a boss using Build Up + Energy Transfer (or was it Aim?). Outside of AE, it can probably happened against even-con bosses under rare circumstances, such as perhaps a Rikti Chief getting damage buffed by multiple Guardians and then whacking a squishy who has no resistances or +HP. But those instances are going to be very few and far in between so may not be worth considering on the whole.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
There are a couple of regular game bosses that have the ability to critical as well. (5th Council Martial artists memorably for me).
They can take a non-Sm/Le resistant scrapper down from full to nothing with one hit. |
A Critical, IIRC, is counting as two "hits" of damage, even though it's one attack. Say you have 1000 HP. NPC's normal attack does 800, crit does 400 (just making numbers up.) From full health, that will kill you - because it's not seen as one "shot."
Similarly, an attack with multiple damage types (the Rikti sword lethal/energy combo, for instance) will count as two "shots" even though it's one attack, and will kill you if the totals are high enough.
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Yeah, that's a *great* attitude to take to promote discussion. "They disagree, they hate everything!" |
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Of course there are some things about CoH specifically (too easy, few oneshots, and ability of any build to cap defense) that interfere, so the myopic suggestion hate brigade has to mob the heretic rather than just discussing how those things could be made compatible.
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Bravo.
Not so much an attempt to promote discussion, as a complaint about the nature of the suggestion board. And I've got no problem with those who disagree, just the general taking of it to the next level, so to speak, or use of bad arguments. Lothic's post for example, along with a bunch of others, disagreed while being totally reasonable. It's not like there is a single person who went too far, but it's the general buildup of, well, like I said, it feels like suggesters are heretics sometimes.
I'll admit that I probably overreacted here, because some of the reaction, upon reading it again, was provoked by OP's PVP accusation. This is something of a pet peeve that is often true though: suggestions are probably the easiest way to get posting aggro.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I had to actually go look up the word "myopic". Sorry, English isn't my first language. And thank you for forcing me to learn a new word today!
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Of course there are some things about CoH specifically (too easy, few oneshots, and ability of any build to cap defense) that interfere, so the myopic suggestion hate brigade has to mob the heretic rather than just discussing how those things could be made compatible.
But really? Just because we simply disagree with a suggestion in its entirety and don't wish to discuss how it could be made compatible we're myopic suggestion hate brigade?!
You disagree with my opinion that Anti-One-Shot needs to be removed! You're not discussing how it could be made compatible! You're a myopic suggestion hate...person! 
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well... truth is, most of the suggestions that are made are not made with "what is City of Heroes" in mind. Most suggestions fall into two categories:|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Not so much an attempt to promote discussion, as a complaint about the nature of the suggestion board.
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- Suggestions based on how other games do something, and are designed to implement feature of other game into City of Heroes
- Suggestions based on personal whim, and are designed to answer players personal pet goal
There have been cases where any one particular poster can rise to infamy with a series of ideas or suggestions that are so far removed from the basic elements of design or gameplay, that trying to relate the idea or suggestion with the basic elements of City of Heroes is impossible within the context of City of Heroes. Such strings of posts, coupled with the nature of an international community with different cultural ideas on what is fun and what is not fun, or what is good and what is not good, coupled with forum cliques that do not respond well to being confronted and shot down, and there is a perfect recipe for a mental fatigue that can quickly descend to expressed annoyance.
Basically that is a long and flowery way of saying: Stupid posts make heads hurt. Continuous stupid posts drive players away.
I think a lot of people are getting hung up on the term "one-shot", which is a misnomer for the system I've suggested (though it is appropriate for the current system). The idea here isn't really to prevent one-shotting, though it would do that as a side-effect, but rather to diminish the "YOU LOSE" power of sudden damage spikes. Taking massive amounts of damage would still be dangerous because it puts you in a critical position where you need to heal or escape immediately or die, but the point is it gives you the ability to react to it rather than just suck it up and hosp or wait for a rez.
I admit that there are very few enemies that have the power to take someone down from >90% health, but there are several bosses with attacks that can deal more than 60% of your total health if you aren't a tank or brute, which is still a massive damage spike and typically far greater than the power of their other attacks (this is especially true when it comes to custom AE mobs, though those are typically more powerful than a standard mob anyway). With defense, fighting these types of mobs is really just a luck game; you have to hope they won't hit with their big damage attack before you can deal enough damage to finish them off. Resistance is more reliable, but this system wouldn't really have an effect on resistance sets anyway because they take damage through attrition rather than one big hit, and get dropped into the "critical zone" a few percent at a time. The point isn't really to make defense as reliable as resistance, because damage spikes WOULD still be a threat; they just wouldn't mean you instantly drop with no ability to prevent it. If it ended up making defense TOO effective, the critical range could easily be extended upward as much as would make sense; 10% is just an arbitrary number.
It touches on a bigger issue which is beyond the scope of this discussion, which is that random chance alone is not gameplay; random chance is meant to force the player to make decisions they weren't anticipating, which IS gameplay. If your only available action is "die", that's not a choice at all.
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je_saist: Good points. People should try to avoid such scenarios, but if I comment upon it I will try to be less confrontational about it.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Look at your combat logs.
A Critical, IIRC, is counting as two "hits" of damage, even though it's one attack. Say you have 1000 HP. NPC's normal attack does 800, crit does 400 (just making numbers up.) From full health, that will kill you - because it's not seen as one "shot." Similarly, an attack with multiple damage types (the Rikti sword lethal/energy combo, for instance) will count as two "shots" even though it's one attack, and will kill you if the totals are high enough. |
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Can I get a big old facepalm for this post please?
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I fully understand that, was just citing an example from non-AE bosses.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Look at your combat logs.
A Critical, IIRC, is counting as two "hits" of damage, even though it's one attack. Say you have 1000 HP. NPC's normal attack does 800, crit does 400 (just making numbers up.) From full health, that will kill you - because it's not seen as one "shot." Similarly, an attack with multiple damage types (the Rikti sword lethal/energy combo, for instance) will count as two "shots" even though it's one attack, and will kill you if the totals are high enough. |
First time it happened to me, was pre-oneshot code anyway
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Yet, without some random factor then the risk all but disappears and with it the tension and the challenge and then... what was that new game called again?...|
Originally Posted by The_Cheshire_Cat
I think a lot of people are getting hung up on the term "one-shot", which is a misnomer for the system I've suggested (though it is appropriate for the current system). The idea here isn't really to prevent one-shotting, though it would do that as a side-effect, but rather to diminish the "YOU LOSE" power of sudden damage spikes. Taking massive amounts of damage would still be dangerous because it puts you in a critical position where you need to heal or escape immediately or die, but the point is it gives you the ability to react to it rather than just suck it up and hosp or wait for a rez.
I admit that there are very few enemies that have the power to take someone down from >90% health, but there are several bosses with attacks that can deal more than 60% of your total health if you aren't a tank or brute, which is still a massive damage spike and typically far greater than the power of their other attacks (this is especially true when it comes to custom AE mobs, though those are typically more powerful than a standard mob anyway). With defense, fighting these types of mobs is really just a luck game; you have to hope they won't hit with their big damage attack before you can deal enough damage to finish them off. Resistance is more reliable, but this system wouldn't really have an effect on resistance sets anyway because they take damage through attrition rather than one big hit, and get dropped into the "critical zone" a few percent at a time. The point isn't really to make defense as reliable as resistance, because damage spikes WOULD still be a threat; they just wouldn't mean you instantly drop with no ability to prevent it. If it ended up making defense TOO effective, the critical range could easily be extended upward as much as would make sense; 10% is just an arbitrary number. It touches on a bigger issue which is beyond the scope of this discussion, which is that random chance alone is not gameplay; random chance is meant to force the player to make decisions they weren't anticipating, which IS gameplay. If your only available action is "die", that's not a choice at all. |
OK, over stating it a bit, but realistically I just never notice drastic big hitting dangers as anything encounter breaking or worrisome under the current system - no matter what AT or powerset I'm on. Sure I know that danger lurks, and I've died and said "WTF was that!?!?" but I've never felt like it was a fail of the system or that it needed to function safer as a result.
I can only speak from personal experience. Clearly, a differing perspective exists. You called it wanting "...the ability to react to it rather than just suck it up and hosp or wait for a rez." I think solo it is about being proactive - assessing and knowing the threat in your target, and having a plan in advance. I have instincts solo that are comfortably reliable and when I get in a reaction scenario... I understand what happened and adapt for the next time.
On a team, it is completely different. It is the team synergies that support and buffer past the risk - being it rocking the aura, applying other buffs, or just debuffing the oppositions' health that much quicker.
I think it was said well earlier (and I admit laziness will prevent me from checking who to quote), I feel the current code strikes a nice middle ground that provides protection from complete vulnerability and avoids complete I-laugh-in-the-face-of-certain-death.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
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In any case, I don't think any foes should have the power to oneshot any heroes. I really don't know why there's a discrepancy in health totals. Tanks, yes (and maybe Brutes). Their defining attribute is resilience. I don't see why everyone else can't have the same health. I think the suggestion has merit. |
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Say, Shark, you going to facepalm at Bill too? He's saying the EXACT thing I said.
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And this is my perspective:
Originally Posted by Chyll
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OK, over stating it a bit, but realistically I just never notice drastic big hitting dangers as anything encounter breaking or worrisome under the current system - no matter what AT or powerset I'm on.
Why -shouldn't- we notice a drastic big hitting danger as anything encounter breaking or worrisome? You -should- be worried about dropping straight into the ground on the tiniest poke from massive beasts and arch enemies in the game such as Hamidon and Lord Recluse. That's what separates Lord Recluse from Generic Villain #2333997, and it separates Generic Villain #2333997 from Supe'd Up Purpled-Out Villain #276.
Why should a level 1 villain be able to stare at Lord Recluse or Hamidon and be like "Haha! You suck!" and get shot, and be like "HAHA! YOU CAN'T KILL ME!" and get shot -again- and only -then- die? Lord Recluse should toss him to the moon with a poke!
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Don't forget Blowback from the Steel Canon burning buildings |
Originally Posted by Luminara
The only foes capable of defeating anyone, even a petless mastermind, with a single attack are other players, AVs and Monsters
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On-topic, the only change that I think would be merited for the one-shot protection is to have it applied as a per-server-update-cycle protection, rather than per-damage-effect protection. As mentioned, attacks with multiple damage effects can avoid the one-shot protection entirely. If the protection were based on the entire update cycle for the server, that wouldn't be the case.
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Boss melee damage modifier at level 50: 385.52|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
There are a couple of regular game bosses that have the ability to critical as well. (5th Council Martial artists memorably for me).
They can take a non-Sm/Le resistant scrapper down from full to nothing with one hit. |
Elite Boss melee damage mod at level 50: 481.9
Lowest player health maximum at level 50: 1017.35
Highest standard critter damage scale: 2.0
Best case single target melee damage (Elite Boss or lower), without crits, bonus damage, or DOT: 963.8
So yeah, without bonus damage, crits, or damage buffs, critters are usually designed to be incapable of defeating a player with a single attack below the rank of Archvillain or Monster at even con. But bosses and higher that can crit are capable of defeating a player from full health with a single attack.
Also: Ninjitsu and Energy Melee are a combination to avoid in the AE if you aren't deliberately trying to assassinate your fellow players.
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Reread what I said. Tanks and possibly Brutes could have more health than others, but there's no real reason everyone else can't be on the same footing. Why does a Defender or Controller have less health than a Blaster? There's no real reason for it.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Look at your first post. That is what I facepalmed. Why the hell should a controller or blaster or defender or scrapper have the same amount of HP as a tank? Now I'm just waiting for you to somehow sneak in something about end in here.
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Maybe that's because a blaster can not heal himself unless he takes a pool or ancillary power and a defender and controller both have heals in their normal powers? Also, if you look at it from a role perspective, a blaster, tank, scrapper, brute and stalker are the ones doing the damage while everyone else is busy keeping the others alive and the enemies debuffed while adding to the damage being done over all. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Reread what I said. Tanks and possibly Brutes could have more health than others, but there's no real reason everyone else can't be on the same footing. Why does a Defender or Controller have less health than a Blaster? There's no real reason for it.
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And again, you fail to comperhend what is being talked about. The one shot code applies to everyone that is at full health. If you go below that you can be one shotted.
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Defenders and Controllers were not penalized, Blasters were buffed. They used to have the same health, actually, but what changed the situation was the fact that Blasters kept dropping dead, while Defenders and Controllers simply refused to die in large numbers just to get the devs' attention.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Reread what I said. Tanks and possibly Brutes could have more health than others, but there's no real reason everyone else can't be on the same footing. Why does a Defender or Controller have less health than a Blaster? There's no real reason for it.
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If Defenders or Controllers would simply die more often or fail to level quickly for a couple of years, they'd probably get a health buff also. But they are simply too stubborn to do what is necessary for the good of the archetype. Its sad, really, that the few have to suffer just because of the competency of the many.
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We should honor those brave few who so valiantly seize defeat from the jaws of victory.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If Defenders or Controllers would simply die more often or fail to level quickly for a couple of years, they'd probably get a health buff also. But they are simply too stubborn to do what is necessary for the good of the archetype. Its sad, really, that the few have to suffer just because of the competency of the many.
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Trick Arrow|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
Maybe that's because a blaster can not heal himself unless he takes a pool or ancillary power and a defender and controller both have heals in their normal powers?
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Sonic
Force Field
Storm
Cold
None of these have a self heal. Three don't have any sort of heal (four if you don't look at Frostwork's +MaxHP as a "heal" - which IIRC it isn't. And I'd argue against Traps Triage beacon - a +regen - being counted as a "heal" as it doesn't actually heal you, just gives your own regen rate a boost.)
However, all of these have *other* ways of either self buffing or debuffing the enemy, making soloing safer. And controllers, rather obviously, can lock down enemy spawns.
And Blasters have other attacks to put foes down before they do damage. To me, it's just a different way of defending yourself. Defense by healing, or defense by damage. Each class uses a power to do it, so I don't see it being any different, at least in principle.
However, performance is another matter.
I do understand what's being talked about, thank you. If enemies are able to oneshot a Blaster, they're also likely to be able to oneshot a Defender, since the Defender has less health.
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The most important distinction seems to be that the first one seems to work and the second one doesn't, at least for the average player, to a high enough degree to be comparable. That's why the highest damage archetype has had its damage buffed every single time its been revisted and has *also* had its survivability increased nearly every single time its been revisited. And its still unclear if its enough.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
And Blasters have other attacks to put foes down before they do damage. To me, it's just a different way of defending yourself. Defense by healing, or defense by damage. Each class uses a power to do it, so I don't see it being any different, at least in principle.
However, performance is another matter. |
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| If enemies are able to oneshot a Blaster, they're also likely to be able to oneshot a Defender, since the Defender has less health. |
Of course, since neither archetype is explicitly designed to be guaranteed to survive such attacks, this is not really relevant to any significant or game-balance-relevant issue. Its a corner case of a corner case.
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I agree, damage as a defense is a somewhat dubious defense.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The most important distinction seems to be that the first one seems to work and the second one doesn't, at least for the average player, to a high enough degree to be comparable. That's why the highest damage archetype has had its damage buffed every single time its been revisted and has *also* had its survivability increased nearly every single time its been revisited. And its still unclear if its enough.
Although some defenders have resistances, and some have damage debuffs high enough to actually swing the scale in favor of the defender. If you are a Dark or Rad defender for example, and have the appropriate toggle active, you'll benefit from -37.5% damage, which makes defender health effectively larger than blaster health for the purposes of one-shotting and alpha volleys. Of course, since neither archetype is explicitly designed to be guaranteed to survive such attacks, this is not really relevant to any significant or game-balance-relevant issue. Its a corner case of a corner case. |
The point I'm making is that Defenders do have the potential for some defense (though it's rather limited), but Blaster have the potential for more offense. Each has a pair of power sets. If they're balanced (not a given), then there's no reason their health should be different.
Works fine. leave it
There are a couple of regular game bosses that have the ability to critical as well. (5th Council Martial artists memorably for me).
They can take a non-Sm/Le resistant scrapper down from full to nothing with one hit.
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