City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

23X's altrustic thread (Or the soup line forms to the left)

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-13 15:45 in The Market and Inventions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masque View Post
As a player who runs events and funds them with my own inf, I always sort of cringe when people talk about things like the 88s or burning inf just for fun. I am by no means poor when it comes to fake money in the game but a the same time when I see people burning spare inf just because I always think, "Why not just donate it to PvPEC or PERC or someone who is running server events to benefit the player base as a whole".
Well technically destroying the inf takes it out of the economy which lowers prices by some (admittedly minuscule) amount. So it's to the benefit of a larger portion of the player base than most server events reach.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masque View Post
As a player who runs events and funds them with my own inf, I always sort of cringe when people talk about things like the 88s or burning inf just for fun. I am by no means poor when it comes to fake money in the game but a the same time when I see people burning spare inf just because I always think, "Why not just donate it to PvPEC or PERC or someone who is running server events to benefit the player base as a whole".
One of the biggest problems affecting the entire player base is inflation -- it costs more inf to get stuff than it used to, making it harder to afford things without playing the market a lot. The number of alchemical silvers you earn per hour of killing things is way down -- and that hurts nearly everybody at least some. The only way to fix that is to destroy as much inf as possible.

Here's the thing: If enough inf gets burned, you can give numerically smaller prizes and they'll be worth more to the recipients.

Note that this requires a LOT more inf-burning than we can do right now, but every little bit helps. And this benefits the entire player base, even people who aren't at the events.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
dual build, leave the slots empty, hit radio missions.

=D
Something like that yeah.

@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

My altitis means that I usually don't play my 50s, and tend to be short on influence from time to time. So...ummmm....sign me up?

@Aett Thorn.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masque View Post
As a player who runs events and funds them with my own inf, I always sort of cringe when people talk about things like the 88s or burning inf just for fun. I am by no means poor when it comes to fake money in the game but a the same time when I see people burning spare inf just because I always think, "Why not just donate it to PvPEC or PERC or someone who is running server events to benefit the player base as a whole".
What they do with their play money is their business, what I do with my play money is my business.

=)

Besides the 88's are (at least attempting) to perform a valuable game-wide service- the devs refuse to give us enough money pits to tame inflation, so we've made one of our own.

Maybe it'll inspire them...we eventually got merged markets, so who knows!

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow View Post
It does seem odd that a player hitting 50 would have such a problem. It seems more likely that they would run in to problems at 22 than 47.
Right. I know in the pre-IO pre-Market days it was very difficult to afford full sets of IOs in the 20s, and even in the 30s. I suspect that is no longer true IF a new player is directed to the Market to sell drops. But perhaps some new players don't realize the markets exist and just sell all their drops to vendors?

In any case, I like what 23X is trying to do.

Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
What they do with their play money is their business, what I do with my play money is my business.
I agree.
Quote:

Besides the 88's are (at least attempting) to perform a valuable game-wide service- the devs refuse to give us enough money pits to tame inflation, so we've made one of our own.
I'm not so sure I agree with this however. While the idea of destroying inf and the theory that this will lead to lowering the prices on the market maybe valid (I'm certainly no economist) there seems to be more motivation then just goodwill with what the 88's are doing.

I have only given the thread a cursory glance so I am in all likelihood coloring the whole idea of it with a bias brush. However, from what I have seen there is also an agenda to take the #1 prestige spot, that goal has nothing to do with burning inf or driving down market prices that is more screwing with the fluffy bunnies.

Don't get me wrong I have a great amount of respect for Flumens and appreciate him for offering to match inf for inf prestige trade ins.

It would seem to me that you could do the same thing by just creating a lvl 1 dumping 2 bill on him, filling his market slots with 2 bill bids, his email with max inf and then deleting him.

All I can say is I really hope you guys are right, the first huge event I hosted had a total prize package of 100million (about 2 years ago) and that was at the time the largest prize given out by a single person on my server, my latest event is in excess of 6.5billion. I'm just not sure that you all can destroy inf faster then it is being created, and if the supply of inf keeps going up its relative value goes down which means you need to spend more of it for market items (again not an economist so maybe this statement is wrong).

In any case, Nether is right, everyone should play how they want after all this is just a game .

 

Posted

Bumping your thread because it's cool.

Also just to note, I was inspired to offer something similar to new players in my SG (which is a large coalition of 10 or so SGs, lots of newer players out there. I'm forcing them to sign up for our message board and post there before I send 'em money, though. ^_^ )


my lil RWZ Challenge vid

 

Posted

if your giving away free money sure, i got 4 toons im still in process of completing their builds but the insane prices that purps are and with the randomness of the RNG, it takes forever to full slot anything (between the 4 toons im working on i need at least 40 purps, all 4 of them need 5 IOs from the apoc set, so im already looking at several billion right there)

global is @Necrotech Master

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
if your giving away free money sure, i got 4 toons im still in process of completing their builds but the insane prices that purps are and with the randomness of the RNG, it takes forever to full slot anything (between the 4 toons im working on i need at least 40 purps, all 4 of them need 5 IOs from the apoc set, so im already looking at several billion right there)

global is @Necrotech Master
I'll get the 5.5 million to you in the morning, because you asked.

but if you need 40 purples, I don't think any are running over 1/2 a billion right now so that's less than 20 billion should be doable is a month less if you get lucky.

Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Masque View Post
I agree.

I'm not so sure I agree with this however. While the idea of destroying inf and the theory that this will lead to lowering the prices on the market maybe valid (I'm certainly no economist) there seems to be more motivation then just goodwill with what the 88's are doing.

I have only given the thread a cursory glance so I am in all likelihood coloring the whole idea of it with a bias brush. However, from what I have seen there is also an agenda to take the #1 prestige spot, that goal has nothing to do with burning inf or driving down market prices that is more screwing with the fluffy bunnies.

Don't get me wrong I have a great amount of respect for Flumens and appreciate him for offering to match inf for inf prestige trade ins.

It would seem to me that you could do the same thing by just creating a lvl 1 dumping 2 bill on him, filling his market slots with 2 bill bids, his email with max inf and then deleting him.

Im going to quote Fulmens (or paraphrase) and say "There are as many reasons to burn inf in the Crazy 88s as there are people doing it"

With that being said we do need to start a charity thread where people point out what they are doing for the community and hold out their hat as it were. Im not a leader though, Im an idea guy....someone else start it.

Who runs these organizations PVPEC and PERC. Ill see to it a portion of my weekly burnings makes it to them (if they accept donations)

 

Posted

PERC is run by @Ice Knight and @Madame Pistacio
PvPEC is run by @CriticalKat or @-KitKat

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
Hmmm. I have an idea forming in my brain...

Got bored and tried this on my EM/ELA brute. 2nd build starting with 0 enh, 0 inf, 0 insp, 0 everything. Played solo doing paper missions set at 0/0. Sold all drops to vendor, including the Thunderstrikes and Red Fortunes I got. Bought new enh. as I went. Took me 2 hours and 20 mins of total gametime over 2 days. That included the time spent at the quatermaster buying.

 

Posted

It is very nice of you to do this give away. I doubt there is another game with a community as charitable as this one. (None for me thanks)

--

I don't know why I think this is a good place for my musings but...

Is there another game where the Market causes such angst? (Wrong word, someone else supply a better one)

I have played many MMOs. It has been a while since I was logged on to another one but I don't remember sitting in front of the PC and feeling kind of lost on what to do. Is it just me? Is it the 14,873 different recipes? or the 326,854 pieces of salvage? Is it the 421 IO sets?

Is it the fact that I don't know which of all that is what I need/want? Is it the fact that the secret nature of the sales obscure the values and trends that are more apparent in open, non-secretive markets in other games?

I like the fact that the core elements of CoH are designed differently than other MMOs. I wish they hadn't broken new ground on the market design though. It is the only part of this game I hate and it is much too important to ignore. I do ignore it though, until I am drowning in things to sell and wanting to buy and still I know every transaction I make is a bad deal for me and feeding somebody that is a market analyst in real life. The fact people come to this forum and talk about the sheep isn't real helpful either. (very few I know)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodminion View Post
Is there another game where the Market causes such angst?
I'm not aware of one. As for why, I think you touched on the reason in your post. The nature of the market system (double blind bids) is designed to favor people who are patient over those who are not and provides little incentive for people to spend lots of time at the market looking for bargains instead of going out and beating on bad guys. Personally I love this, I can get gear I want at a good price without having to check the market every 5 minutes to see if someone listed an item I want at a good price. However the downside is that the market is a lot more opaque until you learn how to read it.

This means there is a learning curve to the market that a lot of people are not interested in surmounting. There are other MMOs that have similarly complex markets but in those the market is generally a more important feature of the game so people who play the game expect that they will have to learn to use the market for success. Other games have a market which is easier to understand at a superficial level but requires significantly more effort to avoid getting a poor deal.

Suppose I want to buy a stack of 10 widgets. In a classic market system I go to the market and see what widgets are being offered at what prices. My options are then to buy the widgets at the offered price or not to buy them. If I want a better deal my only option is to come back later and hope I can get some cheaper then. Here if they aren't selling at the price I'm willing to pay I can simply leave my bid in place and the game will take care of buying them for me at that price leaving me free to do other things.

 

Posted

Thanks for the assist 23x. I accept @iron specter. I play in the market all the time and build a lot of set IOs. I have very sporadic play time though so I earn rewards slowly and stay broke. A lot of my characters need enhancements. I like to build out with generic IOs then add sets when I can. Any help is appreciated.

 

Posted

Good in theory but for the part that your number of bids and sales are very limited (16) and without knowledge, which you admit is hard earned, that bid may stay there for weeks. The space it takes up is a valuable resource. At least BIDs cost no money up front and you can cancel. I returned to the game last spring and started out all excited about the new (to me) market and lost my shirt SELLing because current prices for what I had was at an all time high or something. My salvage and stuff never did sell and I lost what was to me at the time a lot on the listing charge. I loathe the "last 5 list".

Edit: That was a reply to Adeon Hawkwood of course. And also your remark about other games is right too. I might be playing Eve if I liked playing the market. I don't.
Edit 2: I have one character that has IOs. Two sets. She is 26 in Praetoria. I have two level 50s. SOs across the board... I lied, I have three 50s now but all SOs.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodminion View Post
Good in theory but for the part that your number of bids and sales are very limited (16) and without knowledge, which you admit is hard earned, that bid may stay there for weeks. The space it takes up is a valuable resource. At least BIDs cost no money up front and you can cancel. I returned to the game last spring and started out all excited about the new (to me) market and lost my shirt SELLing because current prices for what I had was at an all time high or something. My salvage and stuff never did sell and I lost what was to me at the time a lot on the listing charge. I loathe the "last 5 list".
Well in general for buy bids if it doesn't fill in 24 hours I tend to redo it at a higher price.

Selling is risky and the market is deliberately setup that way to drive prices down. Yes, it can be hard learning it (and I think that is a problem) but in the long run it discourages sellers from making risky "just in case" bids. Similarly the limitation on market slots is intended to encourage fast turnover on the parts of bother buyers and sellers which helps keep the market active.

I do agree with you on the problems with just showing the "last 5". Personally I would much prefer the option to see prices over the last 24 hours or last 7 days. I think this would give less experienced players a much better idea as to an item's true value but I know there are people who disagree.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I do agree with you on the problems with just showing the "last 5". Personally I would much prefer the option to see prices over the last 24 hours or last 7 days.
I've long thought that would be a good option.

Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I do agree with you on the problems with just showing the "last 5". Personally I would much prefer the option to see prices over the last 24 hours or last 7 days. I think this would give less experienced players a much better idea as to an item's true value but I know there are people who disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardan View Post
I've long thought that would be a good option.

I think last 5 is fine on high volume items ie: popular salvage to track 24 hours would be pages of data. where last 5 can cover days if not weeks of sales for expensive and less popular items.

I wonder if showing the last 5 at all is a mistake. if it was a blind market people would bid and sell based on what they felt an item was worth, and in general there would be a lot less volume but everyone would be buying and selling items at the individual's preconceived value.

Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodminion View Post
It is very nice of you to do this give away. I doubt there is another game with a community as charitable as this one. (None for me thanks)

--

I don't know why I think this is a good place for my musings but...

Is there another game where the Market causes such angst? (Wrong word, someone else supply a better one)

I have played many MMOs. It has been a while since I was logged on to another one but I don't remember sitting in front of the PC and feeling kind of lost on what to do. Is it just me? Is it the 14,873 different recipes? or the 326,854 pieces of salvage? Is it the 421 IO sets?

Is it the fact that I don't know which of all that is what I need/want? Is it the fact that the secret nature of the sales obscure the values and trends that are more apparent in open, non-secretive markets in other games?

I like the fact that the core elements of CoH are designed differently than other MMOs. I wish they hadn't broken new ground on the market design though. It is the only part of this game I hate and it is much too important to ignore. I do ignore it though, until I am drowning in things to sell and wanting to buy and still I know every transaction I make is a bad deal for me and feeding somebody that is a market analyst in real life. The fact people come to this forum and talk about the sheep isn't real helpful either. (very few I know)
The Fulmens mini-guides [see sig] include some basics on the market and on frankenslotting. "mini" may be a misstatement, because I never freakin' shut up, but give em a try: posts #16 and #23, respectively.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Actually the market in EVE online allows you to go back as far as 1 year. Truth be known, the market in CoH is simple compared to EVE. But it's understandable because ISK (EVE's version of Inf) can easily be converted to real cash. Examples of the interface here:

EVE Market Basics.

The developers of EVE online have gone as far as saying that the market there is "just another form of PVP."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _23X_ View Post
I think last 5 is fine on high volume items ie: popular salvage to track 24 hours would be pages of data. where last 5 can cover days if not weeks of sales for expensive and less popular items.
The problem with last 5 on high volume items is that it only really tells you what it's going for now. You don't necessarily want to read all the sales over the past 24hours but a summary with things like high price, low price and average price over the last 24hours would be very useful.

Quote:
I wonder if showing the last 5 at all is a mistake. if it was a blind market people would bid and sell based on what they felt an item was worth, and in general there would be a lot less volume but everyone would be buying and selling items at the individual's preconceived value.
I think that would make the situation significantly worse. I think that a total lack of information would result in people giving up on the market entirely and either do trades off-market or simply not bother trading at all.

 

Posted

Well I took 23X's altruistic donation and tried to make some profit rather than just spend it on IOs. So far I have gottne it up to 25 mil just by buying IOs crafting and then selling the finished product. Unfortunatly I have hit a market jam. All of my slots are full and nothing has moved for a bit. I am think of pulling some uncrafted receipes I had up for 100 and just vendoring them to clear the space. Think I have 18 slots to work with at the moment. I am going spend a little more to try for some more desirable crafted receipes next to see if they will move faster.

Thanks again 23X

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Specter View Post
Unfortunatly I have hit a market jam. All of my slots are full and nothing has moved for a bit. I am think of pulling some uncrafted receipes I had up for 100 and just vendoring them to clear the space. Think I have 18 slots to work with at the moment.
Email some items or funds to another toon and use those slots, too.

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