That is very similar to what /EA brutes do.
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genius.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Kill a target = You're hidden again. I'd love it. Slap that in and ship it out. Solve the whole demoralize-not-procing issue too since, if you 1-shot something with AS, you're still hidden to strike again. The enemies would still know you're there but you can pop another shot off...possibly killing another to put you in hide again...
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
You know what? If you're so adamant about re-hiding, how about getting that...by fighting? Like Brutes and their Fury, Doms and their Domination, Blasters and their Defiance... Kill a target = You're hidden again. I'd love it. Slap that in and ship it out. Solve the whole demoralize-not-procing issue too since, if you 1-shot something with AS, you're still hidden to strike again. The enemies would still know you're there but you can pop another shot off...possibly killing another to put you in hide again... |
Funny... seems to me like you were being sarcastic, but that is a good idea
I doubt it would ever get implemented like that tho, it might be a matter of perspective but nerfs can and have been on game changing magnitude and buffs usually sit on the fence between subtle and insubstantial
The OP basically states that whether or not there are problems that can or cannot be fixed, the real issue is how much work would be involved
And even if changing how hide works isn't too difficult it would change how the AT is played
So, something not too difficult to get done that wouldn't radically alter the stalker experience
What would it take to introduce enhancements specifically for AS?
Along the lines of what are available for snipes and taunt, there could be sets that have procs for the things we want like chance for status effects and/ or chance to rehide etc...
Generics could be hide timer redux, demoralize duration etc...
It would enable you to build more for your playstyle while keeping in line with what was originally intended for stalkers
Just off the top of my head (not really but who doesn't want to appear more intelligent than they really are?)
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I think the highlighted portion shows the response to pretty much every suggestion made so far, which just leaves one question for balance purposes:|
Originally Posted by Castle
Reposting from I19 Beta threads
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So, when do Scrappers get nerfed, then?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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It was a sarcastic suggestion mainly because it has been suggested before by others (I believe) along with its variants 'critical hits giving a chance to rehide you' and 'breaking LoS rehides you'. But also partially because the AT already has a decent few bells-and-whistles to work with and don't really need extra.|
Originally Posted by ultraok
Funny... seems to me like you were being sarcastic, but that is a good idea
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But I'd personally just cut out the middle man and drop the rehide part for just 'defeating enemies buffs you'. That's what you're there for, after all...to defeat targets quickly so doing so could be an advantage to you. And it's unique since there is no character in-game that does this yet Castle expressed the possibility of such a mechanic as workable in the past.
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What would it take to introduce enhancements specifically for AS? Along the lines of what are available for snipes and taunt, there could be sets that have procs for the things we want like chance for status effects and/ or chance to rehide etc... Generics could be hide timer redux, demoralize duration etc... It would enable you to build more for your playstyle while keeping in line with what was originally intended for stalkers Just off the top of my head (not really but who doesn't want to appear more intelligent than they really are?) |
But you never know, Castle or Posi might have some stuff in their back pockets that might do something similar.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I think the highlighted portion shows the response to pretty much every suggestion made so far, which just leaves one question for balance purposes:
So, when do Scrappers get pie, then? |
/signed. I also would like to know when Scrappers get pie.
<.<
>.>
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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This isn't a totally horrid idea, but IMO it's still emphasizing stalkers in the space of straight up fighters. We have scrappers for that. They're good at it, and they're well designed to do it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Kill a target = You're hidden again. I'd love it. Slap that in and ship it out. Solve the whole demoralize-not-procing issue too since, if you 1-shot something with AS, you're still hidden to strike again. The enemies would still know you're there but you can pop another shot off...possibly killing another to put you in hide again...
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The original stalker crit mechanic was far more thematic. It emphasized the stalker attacking helpless targets and reinforced the idea that stalkers were not intended to be straight up fighters in the vein of scrappers or brutes. The problem was that it relied on a very specific status effect that only a single AT could leverage effectively (this was before coop zones, so you only had doms avaliable for this.)
Adding better crits to stalkers was the kludge IMO. Not only did it detract from what makes scrappers special, but it de-valued the hidden state, which is what makes stalkers different from scrappers just like domination is that one thing that makes doms differ from controllers.
They're similar ATs, but there's a key difference. Doms thrive on damage, while controllers thrive on holds. Similarly, Scrappers thrive on repeatedly hammering in damage (more crits) while stalkers should be thriving on controlled spikes rather than sustained dps.
Stalkers are by no means a bad AT, but the lingering problem is that the stalker's best tricks are increasingly devalued by adding more people to the team. On a full team, the stalker is systemically incapable of bringing anything worthwhile to the table that two other ATs can't do better. Thus, stalkers shouldn't be continually redesigned to compete with scrappers or brutes for melee DPS, they should be geared around doing exactly what stalkers do best, selecting a single target, and killing that single target as rapidly as possible, even if it means they can't repeatedly down multiple targets as well as scrappers or brutes.
It sounds a lot like an idea from way back (around i9 or so) that if you killed someone via a critical AS, you maintained Hidden status. I wish I could remember the particular details posted then about it, but it had certain allowances for lowering the hidden timer (down to 4 seconds on a team of 8) as well as crits re-hiding you.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Sure, why not? Like I said, my prerogative here isn't to alter people's playstyles, but to make Hide more meaningful for a Stalker. If getting it by fighting is what it takes, then getting it by fighting it is. I was actually even coming to suggest something along the same lines just now.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You know what? If you're so adamant about re-hiding, how about getting that...by fighting? Like Brutes and their Fury, Doms and their Domination, Blasters and their Defiance...
Kill a target = You're hidden again. I'd love it. Slap that in and ship it out. Solve the whole demoralize-not-procing issue too since, if you 1-shot something with AS, you're still hidden to strike again. The enemies would still know you're there but you can pop another shot off...possibly killing another to put you in hide again... |
My version was a little less reliable, in that each Stalker attack would have around a 5-10% chance reinitiate Hide (provided it lands) regardless of target death. However, I like your idea better. It encourages Stalkers to fight as a melee AT should be, it encourages Stalkers to want to finish off their targets, as it should be, and it encourages Stalkers to want to hide and attack from their Hidden status, as they really ought to. Everybody wins.
Which, by the way, brings me to another point I wanted to address: efficiency. We both cite how re-hiding isn't efficient, so on that we agree, but I don't want to force people into an inefficient tactic. I want to make re-hiding MORE efficient than Scrapping. More efficient than Scrappers themselves, perhaps. Your solution is a good one in this regard. In fact, let's picture a few scenarios.
Scenario 1: You are facing five enemies. Most Stalker veterans will tell you that you want to fight fewer, tougher enemies, but you're facing five minions nevertheless. You assassinate one, kill it, and are immediately re-hidden. Quickly you fire off your large-scale attack on the other, kill that and are re-hidden again. You turn to the third, hit him, but he doesn't die, so you hit him again, he dies and you are re-hidden. You hit the other one, he doesn't die, so you Placate, hit him again and he dies. You are re-hidden. One minion left, you are hidden and it's probably running away. You run ahead, queue up Assassin's Strike and cut him down as he's running away. A winner is you.
Scenario 2: You are facing a +1 boss and a minion. You assassinate the boss, but he doesn't die. However, the minion is now cowering in fear. You Placate the boss and follow-up with a devastating attack. You are still not hidden. So you turn to the minion. You hit him several times, he dies, you are re-hidden and reply to the boss with another devastating attack. You are not hidden, but you Placate and repeat your Assassin's Strike. Boss goes down. A winner is you.
In both scenarios, the Stalker is in the thick of it fighting like a fighter should, but in both scenarios the Stalker is aware of his surroundings and is picking off targets of opportunity. Minions at low health now become less of a nuisance and more of a resource. Cut one down and it hides you, giving you more damage on your next attack. It improves the dynamics of play, it makes Stalkers even better fighters AND it has the benefit of letting them capitalise on their inherent to a degree comparable to how often Brutes use Fury.
I love it!
*edit*
I was also going to suggest higher defence values when hidden so that it's harder for enemies to interrupt you, or out-and-out making the Hidden status not break unless you attack, but not when you take damage (so as to clear the advantage defence sets have over resistance ones) but I like the above idea too much to want to detract from it at the moment.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That would be too close to an I win button|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I was also going to suggest higher defence values when hidden so that it's harder for enemies to interrupt you, or out-and-out making the Hidden status not break unless you attack, but not when you take damage (so as to clear the advantage defence sets have over resistance ones) but I like the above idea too much to want to detract from it at the moment.
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You need to have attacks break hide or it messes with strategy and accountability
And if the rehide helps bring res on par with def what do you do about suppressed toggles?
Say you're DA (or even fire if we ever get it) and you play out those scenarios- it makes the toggles meaningless because they have somewhere near one second out of every seven to apply
On the fear/-to-hit in AS, I wouldn't mind having this made to always have an effect as has been suggested, but the question is Was it intended to only have the effect if you didn't defeat the mob?
Shadestorm, Love the ideas you're throwing around, but have some questions/comments/suggestions about them.
Was thinking of a similar idea as the placate as I was reading earlier posts in this thread, I like how this is presented.
Most of this will probably about implementation/mechanics of how it would work.
About the distraction, do you think it should only be in effect when the mobs have aggro/are engaged on your teammates? And/or only effect up to the number of teammates engaged?
Basing it on just the number of teammates might cause some issues/concerns I think, depending on the intent of implementation.
Example, on a group with multiple stalkers, one question is whether other stalkers in the hidden state should or should not affect the distraction bonus. Thematically they probably shouldn't. Or if there's a teammate not even near the mobs you're fighting, it's also questionable whether they should enhance the buff or not as well.
About the damage buff, I know numbers are most likely just as an example and can be adjusted, but is the intention for the stalker with a full team buffing them 7 people at 20% each to fully hit that 140% max buff in the 2 seconds? From the 'The larger your team, and the longer you remain hidden before striking, the more damage you will do to any enemy you ambush from hide.' makes it seem like that isn't the intention.
Without limiting the distraction to combat only it could allow stalkers to mass up the full bonus while moving from group to group. This may or may not be desirable depending on the intent of implementation.
Another question, if limiting it to combat only, would the damage boost clear when the team has all left combat mode? The next group wouldn't have been distracted by anyone until the team gets there. This should not preclude the stalker from starting to amass a damage boost on the next group they come across as the teammates engage if the stalker remains in hide during the alpha.
How about teammate pets? Should they count for distraction? And which types should be in/excluded?
Basing this bonus on an area around the stalker would probably be the best way to start on forming how this would work mechanically, similar to how the stalker extra crits are set up. This would eliminate getting a buff from teammates who aren't in the same fight as the stalker.
Thoughts on how to determine if a teammate will provide a bonus... Hidden status should probably disqualify that teammate for the duration. Determining combat status might be trickier depending on what is available to look up... Aggro list might work, if the teammate is on the aggro list of nearby enemies they provide the boost.
Clearing the boost after combat... if done by aggro lists once the final mob dies there shouldn't be an aggro list for teammates to be on, so that could be used. Or possibly if there's no enemies in the range that teammates need to be in as well that could also be used...
On the hide distraction bonus, combat/out of combat probably wouldn't matter, as the quicker hide would be mostly useful during combat, and the stalker would probably have already gone back into hidden status before the team gets to the next group.
Even if what I'm thinking here isn't very feasible, at least putting my thoughts out on this idea can at least help by bringing another view and perhaps spark ideas in others as to how it could be done better.
Again, love the idea Shadestorm. It gave me something interesting to mull over, and perhaps my thoughts on it can help further the idea.
Clarification appreciated Castle. I can understand the manpower/time constraints given the issues involved... Still kinda disappointed. I won't be touching the AT unless/until those issues are addressed.
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Yeah, that's half the reason I didn't want to get into those, with the other half being that I like Leo's idea more. I'm not sure how overpowering this would be considering you'd still take eight seconds to hide and it would still not be worth it, but just be less of a bust trying to hide and counter-attack. Again - if we can re-initiate Hide by killing, this isn't needed. Nor, in fact, are any changes to the Fear effect.
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Originally Posted by ultraok
That would be too close to an I win button
You need to have attacks break hide or it messes with strategy and accountability And if the rehide helps bring res on par with def what do you do about suppressed toggles? Say you're DA (or even fire if we ever get it) and you play out those scenarios- it makes the toggles meaningless because they have somewhere near one second out of every seven to apply |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think either idea really helps stalkers on teams. It's easy to see how that makes soloing better, but honestly who needs that? On a team, I want to go after the boss first if I'm a single-target stalker. In which case, per-kill buffs don't do me any good. Pausing my boss fight to try and pick up a kill buff from a minion might sound like a good idea but I'm not damaging the boss while I'm doing it and the minion is going to die anyway even if I don't attack it, so does it really make up for pausing my attack on the boss? Doubt it, in much the same way that waiting for Hide to kick in by itself is also a bad idea. I can see AoE stalkers getting behind the idea of a stacking per-kill buff but of all stalkers, they need help the least.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But I'd personally just cut out the middle man and drop the rehide part for just 'defeating enemies buffs you'. That's what you're there for, after all...to defeat targets quickly so doing so could be an advantage to you. And it's unique since there is no character in-game that does this yet Castle expressed the possibility of such a mechanic as workable in the past.
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I dunno. I think smaller steps are needed. If Castle thinks something like shared aggro is a problem then it seems like what ought to be done first is extending the suppressible AoE defense in Hide to make it defense vs. all types/positions. This after all is the whole idea of the AoE defense being there in the first place: that the stalker would not be hit by splash aimed at other teammates while attempting an Assassin Strike. Except that shared aggro causes some enemies to directly attack the stalker, requiring other defense types. And since this can be done just for PvE now, it won't make stalkers any more difficult to attack in Hide in PvP zones. Seems like an easy one and it will show Castle just how much shared aggro matters, one way or the other.
It won't fix Stalkers, but like I said, it would be a step. I also like the idea of some unsupressible PvE stealth in Hide. If it's not overpowered for those ATs that already have unsupressible stealth, then it won't be overpowered for stalkers. This would be a big help for stalkers attacking those outlying mobs or runners without aggroing neighboring spawns. Hell, my Dark Miasma corruptor can do this already and not just for himself, but for anyone near him DURING combat. Why should he be stealthier while attacking than my Stalker is?
Neither of these ideas would require much work. Neither would directly buff damage (which Castle says they don't want to do right now) and they'd both help show how much aggro is hurting Stalker damage output... if at all.
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It'd depend what the buff is, really. But one point I'd address with a 'kill = buff' thought is it wouldn't self-stack with a single activation. That is, killing a mass of minions with your dmg capped Throw Spines wouldn't net you a buff per minion, but instead 1 buff for the activation of the power. This is so AoE isn't more beneficial than ST.|
Originally Posted by Zem
I don't think either idea really helps stalkers on teams. It's easy to see how that makes soloing better, but honestly who needs that? On a team, I want to go after the boss first if I'm a single-target stalker. In which case, per-kill buffs don't do me any good. Pausing my boss fight to try and pick up a kill buff from a minion might sound like a good idea but I'm not damaging the boss while I'm doing it and the minion is going to die anyway even if I don't attack it, so does it really make up for pausing my attack on the boss? Doubt it, in much the same way that waiting for Hide to kick in by itself is also a bad idea. I can see AoE stalkers getting behind the idea of a stacking per-kill buff but of all stalkers, they need help the least.
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As for the 'not helping teamed stalker', it depends how you look at it. Demoralize is meant to make taking down hard bosses safer and benefits the team while a kill-buff is meant to help you kill weaker targets faster. They aren't there to make you do everything better, just one or the other.
But the reason I'd side with a kill-buff over a kill-rehide is because it doesn't benefit either defense or resistance or healing over the others while still maintaining a flow (especially if that buff was 'burst damage' focused).
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| I dunno. I think smaller steps are needed. If Castle thinks something like shared aggro is a problem then it seems like what ought to be done first is extending the suppressible AoE defense in Hide to make it defense vs. all types/positions. This after all is the whole idea of the AoE defense being there in the first place: that the stalker would not be hit by splash aimed at other teammates while attempting an Assassin Strike. Except that shared aggro causes some enemies to directly attack the stalker, requiring other defense types. And since this can be done just for PvE now, it won't make stalkers any more difficult to attack in Hide in PvP zones. Seems like an easy one and it will show Castle just how much shared aggro matters, one way or the other. |
If taking a certain amount of damage suppressed Hide, this would mean resistance sets could be struck several times before Hide would break while, for sets that relied on defense, would feel Hide vanish with only 1 hit.
Pie-in-the-sky thought but: would be kind of interesting if the amount of damage dictated the duration to unsuppress. So taking the full attack = 8sec Hide timer, taking 10% less shaves off 2sec, taking 30% less shaves off another 2 sec and taking the max 75% of the attack shaves off another 2 sec. Probably not possible but I haven't really put much thought into it...maybe relying on maximum HP vs the attack or just a threshold of damage taken being the result (meaning weaker attacks suppress hide less)...
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I know this wasn't addressed to me, but: I don't really have a problem with that. Well, not a big one, anyway. A per-kill damage buff to Stalkers feels like it skirts both Fury and Defiance a little too closely. As long as that's added to the inherent, then I don't suppose I can whine about Hide not being relevant, but there's something about a kill re-hide that tickles my fancy.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But the reason I'd side with a kill-buff over a kill-rehide is because it doesn't benefit either defense or resistance or healing over the others while still maintaining a flow (especially if that buff was 'burst damage' focused).
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In fact, I keep thinking that this doesn't need to be a simple rehide, as much as an instant recharge of Placate (which REALLY needs a faster animation, by the way). Effectively, it's the same thing - it allows you to go back into hide... If you wanted to. Or it allows you to dodge one enemy more often, as well as escape easier. Though I'm not sure if it may not be overpowered.
Be it buff or re-hide, an on-kill benefit is something I think will really shake up the Stalker dynamic.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I recall there being a bug with Dull Pain a long while back. I didn't have any experience with it (as I didn't make a /Regen stalker until after Elec melee was introduced and this was before that) but I remember, if you had DP activated, that Hide wouldn't suppress unless you took a certain amount of damage...I can't recall the specifics, but I'd look to that bug as a possible mechanic to build on.
If taking a certain amount of damage suppressed Hide, this would mean resistance sets could be struck several times before Hide would break while, for sets that relied on defense, would feel Hide vanish with only 1 hit. |
Probably THE biggest complaint I have against Stalkers right now is the disparity between defence-based sets and resistance-based sets. Completely independent of each respective set's mitigation qualities is that set's ability to pull off hidden criticals, and right at this moment, that ability does not appear to have even been taken into consideration for balancing equations.
This goes back to "bugs me" territory: Stalkers feel like they're balanced as though they were Scrappers, with performance judged by offensive and defensive qualities, seemingly ignoring the Stalker gimmick in its entirety for the purposes of inter-class balance. Each Stalker secondary is relatively balanced against the others... If it were being used by a Scrapper. As used by a Stalker, some sets are markedly better than others, and this is not a fault of the sets themselves. Accounting for resistance in the way specified is a good way to slash at least the bulk of the discrepancies. It still shafts Regen, though.
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Something more general I want to comment on: The notion that Stalkers should be boss killers. I agree with this, but where I disagree is with the notion that this has to be achieved by complete and utter focus on the boss. Even with an on-kill buff or re-hide, you are still free to wail on the boss like an angry Brute, just like you are free to do so now. I just want a better, smarter alternative to doing this, one that has the potential to be even more deadly. However, that's not something that can be dumped into static balance (Stalkers have pretty damn good single-target damage as it is), so it has to come from a gimmick. I just happen to enjoy the gimmick of looking to score kills.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Thematically, you'd have a whole bunch of "special case" things that wouldn't make sense. However, special case setups make generalized buffs far less useful. Like the old stalker crits on held targets, or the current crit buff with a ridiculously short range. I'd see the range to be on par with the kheld inherant, which is IIRC about 300m. This means allies in the general vicinity, so you can't have door sitters buff you.|
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi
About the distraction, do you think it should only be in effect when the mobs have aggro/are engaged on your teammates? And/or only effect up to the number of teammates engaged?
Basing it on just the number of teammates might cause some issues/concerns I think, depending on the intent of implementation. Example, on a group with multiple stalkers, one question is whether other stalkers in the hidden state should or should not affect the distraction bonus. Thematically they probably shouldn't. Or if there's a teammate not even near the mobs you're fighting, it's also questionable whether they should enhance the buff or not as well |
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Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi
About the damage buff, I know numbers are most likely just as an example and can be adjusted, but is the intention for the stalker with a full team buffing them 7 people at 20% each to fully hit that 140% max buff in the 2 seconds? From the 'The larger your team, and the longer you remain hidden before striking, the more damage you will do to any enemy you ambush from hide.' makes it seem like that isn't the intention.
Without limiting the distraction to combat only it could allow stalkers to mass up the full bonus while moving from group to group. This may or may not be desirable depending on the intent of implementation. |
Initially 14 seconds sounds like a long time to be "waiting" and that's the point. If you WANT to build it all the way up every strike for those ultimate AS's you have that option. However, it's boring to stand around in fights and do so. It does give you utility though. Got a hibernate? Is it your job to watch squishies? Do you phase? You've got a tool that allows you to maintain more or less constant viable damage regardless of the frequency of your attacks. This instantly shifts you in to the space of being ABLE to stalk in groups if you choose to do so, and do so effectively.
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Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi
Another question, if limiting it to combat only, would the damage boost clear when the team has all left combat mode? The next group wouldn't have been distracted by anyone until the team gets there. This should not preclude the stalker from starting to amass a damage boost on the next group they come across as the teammates engage if the stalker remains in hide during the alpha.
How about teammate pets? Should they count for distraction? And which types should be in/excluded? |
It's explicitly designed around team size because the problems stalkers have on teams are scalar. In a duo a stalker is an excellent performer, but as the group gets larger, his performance degrades because his alpha has less utility, and his potential for solid singlke target damage is less useful due to greater numbers of enemies.
Distraction is a balance check that's attempting to make the stalker useful in multiple team compositions by allowing him to leverage his alpha strike potentional more often and more reliably in larger teams with more targets.
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Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi
Basing this bonus on an area around the stalker would probably be the best way to start on forming how this would work mechanically, similar to how the stalker extra crits are set up. This would eliminate getting a buff from teammates who aren't in the same fight as the stalker.
Thoughts on how to determine if a teammate will provide a bonus... Hidden status should probably disqualify that teammate for the duration. Determining combat status might be trickier depending on what is available to look up... Aggro list might work, if the teammate is on the aggro list of nearby enemies they provide the boost. Clearing the boost after combat... if done by aggro lists once the final mob dies there shouldn't be an aggro list for teammates to be on, so that could be used. Or possibly if there's no enemies in the range that teammates need to be in as well that could also be used... On the hide distraction bonus, combat/out of combat probably wouldn't matter, as the quicker hide would be mostly useful during combat, and the stalker would probably have already gone back into hidden status before the team gets to the next group. Even if what I'm thinking here isn't very feasible, at least putting my thoughts out on this idea can at least help by bringing another view and perhaps spark ideas in others as to how it could be done better. Again, love the idea Shadestorm. It gave me something interesting to mull over, and perhaps my thoughts on it can help further the idea. |
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I think the biggest issue is that the hide mechanic recognizes damage rather than being attacked.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Probably THE biggest complaint I have against Stalkers right now is the disparity between defence-based sets and resistance-based sets. Completely independent of each respective set's mitigation qualities is that set's ability to pull off hidden criticals, and right at this moment, that ability does not appear to have even been taken into consideration for balancing equations.
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This opens a whole can of worms though, as changing hide to trip upon being attacked rather than taking damage would effectively nerf def sets down to the level of res rests, it would instantly boost /nin to the level of "why take anything else" because of its AoE placate.
It think the general consensus that the non-def sets need to be looked at isn't in question, but as Leo has repeatedly stated, stalkers should have playstyle options. Like any other AT, those options are dependant on powerset selection. My thinking is that res and regen should really cater more toward the "scrappy" playstyle by offering superior mitigation wheras the def/utility sets that are good now should retain their greater potential for damage through hide.
I wish I could say it was as simple as "buff numbers on these sets" but it may very well not be, as the def/utility sets are still very potent mitigation. However I'm still of the opinion that its those sets that need changed rather than altering stalker mechanics as a whole to bring them in line. Whether by adding additional effects to some of those powers (maybe making the hide in those sets more like EA while leaving hide from the def sets unchanged?) or blanket increasing their effectiveness or both.
Personally I just wish they'd throw out the whole teammates increasing criticals thing. Instead, make each skill's crit chance based on that skill's accuracy. That fits more thematically with stalker crits representing their skill at hitting vital spots. Either that or add a debuff like -regen that procs when a crit or AS lands to simulate "poisoned blades". Not saying either of these would solve any stalker problems, I just think they'd fit with the stealthy assassin theme really well.
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Death by Bakshi
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Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
I've always thought this was a bit counter-intuitive and backwards myself.
Scenario 1: You AS Fritz. He lives. His buddy George sees this go down. George: "Oh my god, you severely wounded Fritz!" *cowers in fear* Scenario 2: You AS Fritz. He dies. George: "Oh my god, you killed Fritz! You dirty *******!" *blam blam blam blam blam* |
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While I do agree that Stalkers need options between more stealthy and more open, I'm not sure tweaking resistance-based sets to aid in scrapping is a good solution. For one, certain sets straddle the line between the two, of which Willpower is a good example. For another, you're actually running into a serious risk of making defence-sets redundant. Right now, defence-based sets have an advantage in that it's easier to exploit the AT's mechanic, which is both fiddly and uncertain. If you give resistance-based sets an advantage that produced comparable results without the need for fiddly re-hiding, then you're creating an imbalance which actually sounds very dangerous.|
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
I wish I could say it was as simple as "buff numbers on these sets" but it may very well not be, as the def/utility sets are still very potent mitigation. However I'm still of the opinion that its those sets that need changed rather than altering stalker mechanics as a whole to bring them in line. Whether by adding additional effects to some of those powers (maybe making the hide in those sets more like EA while leaving hide from the def sets unchanged?) or blanket increasing their effectiveness or both.
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The reason I keep poking at the Hide mechanic is because it's rigged to respond to hits or misses, which is intrinsically linked to defence, but not resistance. I feel that if the mechanic were less one-sided, or had other aspects which minimized its one-sidedness, then that problem would take care of itself. That's why I cling to Leo's suggestion of on-kill re-hide. Because such a re-hide does not depend on either accuracy or resistance, but rather on killing things, it's inherently unbiassed. It depends on your primary, and regardless of flavour, Stalker primaries are designed to kill stuff first and foremost.
This isn't a unique problem, actually. Brute Fury is just as biassed. Fury depends on the speed of outgoing player attacks and the speed of incoming enemy attacks. This has the effect of benefiting sets with weaker, faster attacks over those with slower, heavier attacks, even though both designs are considered legitimate. It also serves to make slow effects undesirable, hence why Brutes lost Ice Melee and Ice Armour in Beta.
This, pretty much, is the root problem of designing one mechanic to span across all powersets in a given AT - it all too often doesn't play well with some of them. If each set had its own "inherent," then I feel it would be much easier to balance, but that's out of the question at this point in time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Eh? Re-hide is biased the same way. It's like Placate... only worse because there's no Placate effect to at least offer some chance of not being hit between the Placate and subsequent strike for critical. Defense characters will have the advantage because they can kill someone and then cross the battlefield to crit someone else even if under fire from multiple enemies, with a good chance of succeeding. Resistance characters can't say the same.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Because such a re-hide does not depend on either accuracy or resistance, but rather on killing things, it's inherently unbiassed. It depends on your primary, and regardless of flavour, Stalker primaries are designed to kill stuff first and foremost.
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The Hide problem is more easily solved by just granting a large amount of suppressible defense(ALL) in both Hide and Placate. This is something that does not require any new mechanic or game engine changes. It's also unlikely to introduce any balance issues if done just for PvE. We already have this for AoE defense in Hide so it would just be an extension of that with the idea that even if you can detect someone who is stealthed, they may still be very difficult to hit. Also solves Castle's Shared Aggro problem... well, mostly.
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For what it's worth (not much) -
If Stalkers re-hid automatically after every kill, my interest in playing a Stalker would go up immensely. As in, that day, I'd make two or three.
Currently, every Stalker concept I have goes either Brute, or Scrapper, with the Stealth pool. Which I think is kinda sad.
Ahh, so it's not that each teammate provides +20% every 2 seconds...
It's that each teammate increases the max total buff by 20%, I see.
Kill a target = You're hidden again. I'd love it. Slap that in and ship it out. Solve the whole demoralize-not-procing issue too since, if you 1-shot something with AS, you're still hidden to strike again. The enemies would still know you're there but you can pop another shot off...possibly killing another to put you in hide again...
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