Reposting from I19 Beta threads
Not really sure if making it non-interruptable will help Stalkers do better DPS, but it might just make Stalkers the best at DPE.
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Personally, I find Stalker balance as regards to their hidden criticals and assassinations to be far too cautious, and should be loosened up quite a bit. We've already discussed how that might happen upthread.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't understand why people are proposing changes to stalkers directly.
Castle has stated the issues are systemic.
END.
OF.
STORY.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Continuing to grasp at straws here...
Y'know what else would make Stalkers cooler and give them an interesting and appropriate combat effect without screwing up their general balance or increasing their overall DPS levels?
Make "Hidden" Status provide immunity to *special* damage types, like Hamidon, Krystal Titan, or Praetorian Battle Maiden's [Blue Death Aura].
Maybe an Assassin Strike won't be a game breaker when dealing with one of these powerhouses, but it would greatly increase a Stalker's "cool factor" if they could sneak up into the tank slaying death aura with impunity and backstab the wench (even if he died almost immediately thereafter... still beats dying on the way in).
Of course I still wouldn't complain if the AS was able to deal out something that would actually disrupt an AV's battle plans. It'd be sweet if an AS nullified existing blue death auras (and similar AV powers) and prevented more of them from coming up for about 10 seconds, giving the team time to regroup, and making a Stalker a *highly desirable* team member for the TF.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
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I don't understand why people are proposing changes to stalkers directly.
Castle has stated the issues are systemic. END. OF. STORY. |
No change in damage, and teams would love them so much more!
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Well, I guess he'll let us know when this is "fixed" then.
Until then, I have plenty of other ATs to play.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
This was part of a Brute Fury thread, thought I'd bring it to the right spot.
Stalkers do less damage than Scrappers against a single target. Sometimes. Scrappers have a 1.125 damage scalar for melee attacks. Stalkers, just a 1.00. With a 10% chance to crit (I'm assuming you don't need to ST down minions), the Scrapper has an effective 1.2375 damage scalar. The Stalker, on the other hand, is 1.1 + 0.03 per ally in range. With 4 or less melee allies, the Scrapper comes out better. 5 or more friends within 30 feet, and the Stalker wins out. Of course, the more melee allies you have, the less support that tends to come with it - apart from kins, most buffers like to keep their distance - and then the Stalker's lower hit points becomes more of a liability.
So, the answer to "do Stalkers or Scrappers have better ST damage?", the answer is a resounding "it depends". |
I don't think it should require more than half the team (5 out of 7 team mates) in melee range to boost criticals to where the Stalker is out damaging a Scrapper.
What if the first ally in range provided a larger boost than it does now, and subsequent allies in range provided a smaller boost than they do now - ending up with the same maximum boost, but effectively raising the minimum boost?
Thank you. I would have expected a new thread, but in here is fine.
Now, there's been plenty of posts on the subject of Stalker ST damage in this thread, Samuel_Tow has, I believe, been the leading proponent of it being fine. While AnElfCalledMack's analysis is complete, as far as it goes, it is not the whole story as it does not include either Assassin Strike or Placate. The simple answer is that with less than 5 allies on the team, the Stalker relies more on Assassin Strike and his alpha capabilities (which he can use more often since the spawns are smaller) and with more allies on the team he relies more on his random Criticals.
In both cases, he also has the ability to selectively Critical with Placate. So the answer is, again, "it depends". If you just compare base damage and Criticals, the Stalker loses out on a small team but has more single target DPS on a large team, while if you compare Assassin Strike it becomes less straightforward to do a numerical comparison.
If I were to sum up the comparison between Scrapper and Stalker damage, as described here in this thread, I would call it three-fold:
1) AoE damage is significantly inferior to that of a Scrapper because Stalkers sacrifice an AoE attack for Assassin Strike, and in some cases have no AoE attack at all. In addition, Assassin Strike is single target and Placate's Critical is weighted towards single target damage.
2) Long term single target DPS is slightly higher for the Scrapper but can be raised with Placate Criticals and judicious use of Assassin Strike. Base damage without using Hide/Placate varies from about 10% below Scrapper damage to 10% above Scrapper damage based on team size. Individual Power Sets that Stalkers don't have access to may also outperform Stalkers in general, especially if they can leverage the Scrapper's greater self damage buff.
3) Stalkers almost universally produce better burst damage because of the capability of using Assassin Strikes, and the more frequent Criticals.
The first seems to be the most serious issue, while the lack of access to certain sets as in the second may be a factor as well. It has already been stated that Proliferation of Shields to Stalkers is not likely to happen, as it is not really the goal of a Stalker to surround himself with enemies. Without large crowds to feed AAO, it wouldn't really be able to generate the Scrapper levels of buffs anyway, and I would guess the case is the same with Kinetic Melee right now.
I also personally feel that it is more the third point, not any comparison between AoE and ST damage, that determines the Stalker's lower survivability. The most survivable ATs, Tankers and Masterminds, are those that have the most steady DPS, while the least survivable, Stalkers and Blasters, have the highest burst damage. The tradeoff between AoE and single target damage, I think, is meant to be more in balance. Which it isn't really, but that's more the issue.
Now, there's been plenty of posts on the subject of Stalker ST damage in this thread, Samuel_Tow has, I believe, been the leading proponent of it being fine. While AnElfCalledMack's analysis is complete, as far as it goes, it is not the whole story as it does not include either Assassin Strike or Placate. The simple answer is that with less than 5 allies on the team, the Stalker relies more on Assassin Strike and his alpha capabilities (which he can use more often since the spawns are smaller) and with more allies on the team he relies more on his random Criticals.
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In short, I was comparing how the tactics of team-mates affected the power of a Stalker, and the answer was that Stalker ST damage is highly dependant on being on melee-heavy teams - more than two ranged teammates means they fall behind on ST damage as well as AoE. Now, bursting down that Sapper or Communications Officer is still valuable, and Placate allows lots of neat tricks with aggro, but adding ranged characters quickly makes the Stalker look very suboptimal - snipes, nukes and mezzes provide the same sort of "kill it now" punch that AS does, they add the risk that Placating a mob will send it running after one of the squishies, and they're filling the team with something other than the melee types a Stalker needs for good damage. And when an archetype has noticeable anti-synergies with more than half of the archetypes in the game, I'd say there's an issue with how the archetype is set up.
I would agree that the scaling criticals system needs a bit of a revamp, seeing as how (as I've heard) the reason the 30ft mark was chosen was for latency issues with any sort of higher radius. Perhaps switch to team member number rather than distance? a la super sidekick? maybe a bit OP but if the idea is that stalkers are meant to have the bonus then it's better they have it too often than hardly ever if you ask me.
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
Just the one nitpcik. My analysis isn't just dependant on team size - it's dependant on the number of allies within 30 feet of the stalker - rougly, the number of other melee characters on the team.
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In other words, even with 5 melee allies, the average number of them in crit range over the course of a mission or TF is likely somewhat less than 5. And that's an almost ideal team for stalker criticals. Consider the average team composition and I am willing to bet the true average number of allies contributing to the stalker scaling crit on a full team of eight is probably around 3. At any given time it could be more or less than that, but if you're comparing to a Scrapper whose damage output is consistent and unconditional, you gotta look at the average.
I'm not sure how to parse Castle's statement about Stalkers being "as strong as we want them to be". I don't know if that means Stalkers *would* do better damage than Scrappers if these "systemic" issues were addressed or if Castle even believes Stalkers *should* outdamage Scrappers. To me that's a given. Less survivable = More damage. Because I can't think of what else we bring more of.
Except style of course.
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Just the one nitpcik. My analysis isn't just dependant on team size - it's dependant on the number of allies within 30 feet of the stalker - rougly, the number of other melee characters on the team.
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If I were to nitpick, I would point out that assuming the Scrapper NEVER attacks anything but Lts and Bosses would be unrealistic. The 7.5% Critical rate used for the Brute comparison would probably be more fair. On the other hand, we're only talking about 5% one way or the other. If you use the 5% Crit rate, the Stalker needs an 18% Crit rate, if it's 10% the Stalker needs a 23% Crit rate. The Stalker gets 10% as base. So it's essentially 8-13%
To me, that 8-13% lower DPS is compensated for by a MUCH higher burst damage. To the point where a Stalker is, on average, fighting one less foe than a Scrapper, because he one-shotted him with his first attack. A Scrapper and Stalker will take about the same time to take down 5 foes, but the first two foes will fall faster for the Stalker. (And note this means the Stalker will be dealing damage to his second foe while the Scrapper is still attacking his first. So the Stalker starts out ahead and the Scrapper catches up)
And in my estimation, the added DPA from using Placate and/or AS in melee should provide another 5% or so DPS as well. Possibly as much as 10%. Which is what I said above. Without the melee allies in range, the Stalker would concentrate more on using his damage boosting tools for more DPA, whereas with them he has the option to just stand back and scrap. (Which he may have to because the other meleers are attracting AoEs that may interrupt his AS)
I would say in reference to the latency issue, that powers like Cosmic Balance and other scaling powers usually have a constant tic rate, at which time the allies within range can be calculated. If a Stalker calculates how many teammates are in range every time he makes an attack, this could be more often than a constant tic rate. This does mean, though, that a Stalker can fail to crit on one attack because no one is in melee with him, and yet on the next attack have seven people in range and have a much better chance to crit.
Perhaps a compromise would be for a power in the background to "tic" and calculate the number of allies in range. This calculation can the be used whenever the Stalker attacks within that tic. It might allow a longer range. However, I think the concept the devs may be going with is that allies in melee are a distraction, allowing the Stalker to strike by surprise. If so it may be a balancing issue that can be further tweaked. Either way, I'd like to see the range increased, even if not by a large amount.
There's not really anything much they can do for Stalkers. Stalkers have always had that bad reputation due to lolpvp'ers sucking on teams (i've known guys who refused to ever group a stalker just because so many of them are the durr types who sit around Warburg or wherever being dumb and annoying when you're trying to get your warburg nukes), but more importantly because AoE becomes king and the need for a precision strike specialist is pretty much gone by mid-game. It's funny the Stalker's special ability in the Barracuda SF is being able to turn a switch and instagib the roomful of Columnists--that's pretty much the stalker's problem: tankers/broots/scrappers/blasters/even Warshades can inflict massive AoE damage without needing magic button, but not you!
Maybe people would love Stalkers more if they gave their TEAMMATES a chance/higher chance to Crit. :P.
Make Assassin's Strike or Placate an Inherent ability like Brawl (slottable) and restore the AoE that was removed from their sets. That would benefit some sets more than others (MA gets back a good moderate damage KD kick, and DM would get back...uh, a low damage endurance tap. Boo.)
I am surprised this thread is still active. Castle made it pretty clear that there won't be any stalker buff in near future (or Stalker is already "strong" enough).
Now they have more important things to work on... like Alpha balance and more Alpha slots!
PS: I still talk about how MM's Merc and Ninja can use more changes because Castle hasn't made comments on those yet. :P (Oni still takes Knockback set when he has no knocback)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
or if Castle even believes Stalkers *should* outdamage Scrappers. To me that's a given. Less survivable = More damage. Because I can't think of what else we bring more of.
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Or they think they already do, because they don't actually play the game.
And in my estimation, the added DPA from using Placate and/or AS in melee should provide another 5% or so DPS as well.
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Please show your calculations to back up this estimation.
On a good team using AS on anything less than a boss will most likely see you corpse blasting.
On a good team using AS on anything less than a boss will most likely see you corpse blasting.
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Placate in essence gives you a 1.5 second animation time attack, that does the same damage as your most damaging attack. Presuming that your most damaging attack takes more than 1.5 seconds to cast, this MUST increase your DPS. You're getting twice the damage for less than twice the animation time. This can make a marginal DPA attack considerably better, and a good DPA attack at least marginally better.
Plus, Assassin Strike is itself one of the best DPA attacks available to a Stalker. Yes, you only want to use it against Bosses, but you DO want to use it against Bosses, for the potential for Demoralize. You can continue to use AS, and Placate for that matter, without reducing your DPS. And of course, opening with AS will always improve your DPS.
Is that capable of giving you 5% more DPS? I don't know, I'm not saying that is a fact, just my feeling in the matter. But I do know you can get 25% more DPA out of Eagle's Claw by preceeding it with a Placate. I can only do that every 30 seconds, more if I get some global Recharge. Is that enough to boost my DPS by 5% overall, I don't know, I've never worked up a chain to see. But I know that it IS higher.
Since as a matter of course I can one shot a foe before I even enter the combat, and I KNOW I will be doing higher burst damage than the Scrapper, I'm not sure that a 5% or so lower DPS means that I'm going to be spending more time to kill my foes than the Scrapper. In a mixed group, most of both of our damage is going to be wasted anyway. And if I can take out three targets while the Scrapper is still working on the second, even if I can't do that until we move on to the next spawn, who here is doing the greater damage?
I didn't say AS. I said AS OR Placate.
Placate in essence gives you a 1.5 second animation time attack, that does the same damage as your most damaging attack. Presuming that your most damaging attack takes more than 1.5 seconds to cast, this MUST increase your DPS. |
It's not necessarily a straight-up benefit to damage when compared to just filling in another attack that's already queued (usually, it's not any benefit).
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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And if you get hit during Placates animation before the next power gets queued, you get no benefit at all.
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Also, keep in mind that the most damaging non-AS attack for several sets is an AoE which is only a 50% critical and that neither EM nor KM get any extra damage from their heavy hitters after Placate at all. It's not necessarily a straight-up benefit to damage when compared to just filling in another attack that's already queued (usually, it's not any benefit). |
Still, I'm not claiming that Eagle's Claw is representative of this bonus. I know how good EC has become since the MA boost.
My point is that although in most cases a Stalker's sustained DPS is slightly lower than a Scrapper's, this is balanced by a Stalker's ability to achieve a much higher DPA in his alpha strike. In the short term, the Stalker's DPS is higher. The Scrapper only pulls ahead over sustained attacks against a tough foe, like an AV or Rikti Pylon.
If you are talking about sporadic combat against scattered foes, say you are fighting only 15 out of every 30 seconds, Placate should be up often enough that you can get a sizable bonus to your DPS. With Eagle's Claw, a DPA increase of 25.56% means an overall DPS increase over 30 seconds of 3.375%. Over 15 seconds, that's 6.9%. (Slightly higher than double because you're comparing the animation time of Placate+Eagle's Claw to a shorter time) And that's not counting if you open with an Eagle's Claw from Hide, which is a 100% increase in DPA with no increase in cast time. If you spread THAT out over 30 seconds, it comes out to about 8%.
Let me make this simple: is there anyone here who would consider trading Placate's Critical capability for 12.5% more base damage? Not me, because I'd use it even if it DIDN'T Critical, for the mitigation.
What if ???
The demoralize effect was changed to be an Inherent power that triggered ANYTIME the Stalker defeated (dealt the killing blow) to any critter, AND it was changed to activate off of the stalker instead of the target being defeated ?
Too much Scrapp-trolling ?
Would it impact Team performance properly without being too powerful for PvP or Soloing ?
Seems like it would justify Stalkers having such low hps as well, by giving them a Pseudo-defense in the form of PANIC !!!
Muahuahuah !!
P.S. : Of course I understand that such a change would require the effect to be modified. Magnitude, stacking concerns and duration all would have to be analyzed. My vision was that you would generate "fear-over-time" so that the more you defeat, the more likely that your enemies are "quaking in their boots". Perhaps the AoE should have a magnitude comparable to the target defeated. Mag 1 for Minions, Mag 2 for Lts, and Mag 3 for Bosses.
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It would encourage Stalkers to go after weak minions instead of bosses first. No thank you to this and pretty much ANY on-kill buff/debuff for the same reason.
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Perhaps the idea of a sliding magnitude based on the rank of the foes is a good idea. Or, the Demoralize effect could have a 25% chance to trigger on a Minion, 50% on a Lt, or 100% on Boss or higher. That would give you about an equal chance of the demoralize whether you went after the Boss first or the Minions.
It would encourage Stalkers to go after weak minions instead of bosses first. No thank you to this and pretty much ANY on-kill buff/debuff for the same reason.
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It be a reward for minion bashing which is nearly pointless when the team can wipe them out easily.
Do we need more encouragement to go after bosses? Isn't defeating such targets quickly that could pose such threat encouragement enough?
It would encourage Stalkers to go after weak minions instead of bosses first. No thank you to this and pretty much ANY on-kill buff/debuff for the same reason.
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1) They can leverage their AS more effectively anyways, making Boss defeats more important than they are now.
2) Generating a Mag 3 Fear off the Boss defeat would fear anything not of boss level, which is a much more efficient way to get an AoE Fear effect.
There is also the fact that the stalker may not be the one that delivers the death blow, which makes the effect more balanced in team play than it might initially seem. Solo Play would be improved greatly, which is something worth doing all in itself, if you ask me.
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OR
It be a reward for minion bashing which is nearly pointless when the team can wipe them out easily. |
Do we need more encouragement to go after bosses? Isn't defeating such targets quickly that could pose such threat encouragement enough? |
If you're looking to make Stalkers better ask first what they DO best. Stalkers do burst damage whether in single-target or AoE-from-Hide form. If you're not improving their ability to do that then you're not improving Stalkers in a way anyone will care about. At least not on teams... and Stalkers are already fine soloists.
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If I go after the boss first, even if it generates a larger debuff I STILL have to kill it first. By that point on a decent team the fight is mostly, if not entirely, over. What good is a debuff/fear then?
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You can leave the effect on a Minion or Lt if they survive the AS, as current, or drop it if it doesn't make sense. But AS'ing one of those isn't unexpected, it's pretty much overkill.
I honestly don't know what the thought process was in the devs making the demoralize effect applied to the foe. Maybe they wanted to ensure Bosses/AVs were the target, by nature of their being the only ones likely to survive. Or perhaps they wanted the effect to center on and follow the target, in case the Stalker decided to duck out. I'd like to ask a redname what the intention was, but I don't really know. (Edit: Actually, I suspect it's because they didn't want two Stalkers to stack the effect on the same target. Similar to how Bruising is applied to the target for the same reason)
We KNOW it's possible to make an effect take place only on a Boss or higher rank, though. That's how Brutes get their Fury bonus from AVs, and Scrappers get their Crit bonus on Lts and better. It should be possible to center the demoralize effect on the Stalker, only on a hit to a Boss or higher.
I wonder if it would be possible to have the Demoralize effect applied ONLY to the Stalker if the target is defeated. That way it would be applied to the target, not stacking on the same target if it survived, but if it died, only one Stalker could be the one to kill it. Or even, make it so the effect is applied to the Stalker if the target is one-shot killed, going from full HP to 0. That would ensure another Stalker had not already hit it and applied the debuff.
While I agree with your general direction, I don't think that should be done by making Stalkers better at scrapping, but rather by making them better at hiding.
Certainly. That I can support. Personally, I'd like to see Assassin's Strike be made uninterruptible (so you can use it as part of your attack chain), but lowering its cost so it doesn't sting as much when it interrupts would be good, as well.
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