I don't know about the rest, but build up to 100% is an obvious gimme.
I think a lot of the issues with across the board buffs are that, as castle stated, stalkers in general are already in a pretty good place. The issues facing stalkers are those weak def sets, and reduced team utility.
These are both consequences of hide, and as others have pointed out the suggestion to grant re-hides on kills and whatnot don't fix hide at all, and don't help to balance the disparity between the weaker and stronger sets.
The idea to simply buff hide's def numbers is a really solid one. This is a blanket change to hide that removes a large portion of the def set disparity problem right there. Res sets could more easily play their in-combat crits like a def set does.
It doesn't do much to address the team utility disparity though, but I think with a def buffed full hide, and perhaps a little numbers tweaking on res and regen sets to offset the stalker's lower HP cap it would really solve half the problem without being overpowered.
Quote:
Kind of already true. We currently do have a chance for double crits from hide, you just have to stack placate with it I believe. It's not particularly useful for regular crits but it's kinda nice when used for AS.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know what else I'd like to see? A chance for a "double critical." Every time a Stalker lands a guaranteed critical from Hide, he also has, say, a 5% chance to score ANOTHER critical on top of that. It's not something that's predictable or indeed very useful, as Scrapper criticals have shown us, but that added chance for ZOMGWTF?!? damage every once in a blue moon when your Total Focus happens to crit twice might grant a few smiles here and there. I don't foresee adding the chance for a double critical to basic out-of-Hide scrapping, however. |
Quote:
| Can we please give target AoE powers and cones a guaranteed critical on JUST the target you're aiming for? That way, Head Splitter and Thunder Strike don't have to suck for criticals out of hide. |
Quote:
Wait, so if I Placate while I'm hidden, I get a chance for a double critical? Huh...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Kind of already true. We currently do have a chance for double crits from hide, you just have to stack placate with it I believe. It's not particularly useful for regular crits but it's kinda nice when used for AS.
|
Quote:
| Would probably have to change the dynamics of some of those powers but, currently, Thunder Strike *does* have a guaranteed critical on the target you aim it at. This is true because TS is a ST attack that does smashing damage with energy splash damage. So for this to be true for every multi-target attack, they'd need to be multi-layered which I'm not sure is possible for cones. |
I'm not really sure how Thunder Strike gets its single-target guaranteed critical, but I think it's rigged as the opposite: an AoE power where some of the effects don't apply to its entire AoE range. I believe that's how Tanker attacks are rigged, as well. Actually, how DO Tanker cones manage to spread gauntlet around the affected target? Do they even do that?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not really sure how Thunder Strike gets its single-target guaranteed critical, but I think it's rigged as the opposite: an AoE power where some of the effects don't apply to its entire AoE range. I believe that's how Tanker attacks are rigged, as well. Actually, how DO Tanker cones manage to spread gauntlet around the affected target? Do they even do that?
|
For a quick guess on no sleep... I'd say it works in a fashion similar to what shield charge does, like a double targeted AoE where the smaller main AoE deals significant damage and the secondary, larger AoE deals another effect (damage, taunt etc)...
if I'm thinking clearly atm, shield charge has one 10' and one 20' AoE, so it's probably done in a similar fashion with powers like punch-voke or thunder strike making the smaller AoE an X-foot radius/X-target max and the larger AoE Y-feet/Y-Target max... a 1 foot radius TAoE would, for example, only hit 1 target... that being the anchor of the TAoE, I think.
In the case of thunderstrike, you activate the power and it summons 2 targeted AoEs... first is tagged with a tiny radius and guaranteed critical, while the 2nd has a larger radius and different damage scale. Either that or, maybe it just spawns a pet on the original target that casts an AoE effect?
OK, time for bed now I think...
Quote:
/EA brutes come close to that play style, and which is why I am planning on starting a Claws/EA brute.
|
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
For what it's worth (not much) -
If Stalkers re-hid automatically after every kill, my interest in playing a Stalker would go up immensely. As in, that day, I'd make two or three. Currently, every Stalker concept I have goes either Brute, or Scrapper, with the Stealth pool. Which I think is kinda sad. |
Quote:
Yes. Check out the thread The Single Most Damaging Attack.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wait, so if I Placate while I'm hidden, I get a chance for a double critical? Huh...
|
What is numerically, the most damaging attack in the game? A 'Double Assassin's Strike' at the damage cap (according to the numbers). It is also discussed exactly what causes the double crit. I, myself, have noticed my stalkers doing this on occasion. It's really noticeable. On the bosses that usually you can only take down to around 1/2 HP with a BU>AS, all of a sudden get taken down to around 10% instead.
Quote:
| Actually, how DO Tanker cones manage to spread gauntlet around the affected target? Do they even do that? |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Paragonwiki
Gauntlet -- also referred to as "PunchVoke" -- causes the Tanker's AoE attacks and auras to taunt every PvE enemy they affect. Their single-target attacks taunt the enemy hit and up to four more around it. Gauntlet has reduced chances of affecting exceptionally high-rank foes like Giant Monsters, and even worse chances of affecting other players in PvP.
Brutes possess a smaller version of this power, occasionally labeled as "PokeVoke" by the community, as it does not possess an official name. The Brute's version of Gauntlet does not apply in PvP, and their single-target attacks only taunt the one target hit. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mystic_Cross
if I'm thinking clearly atm, shield charge has one 10' and one 20' AoE, so it's probably done in a similar fashion with powers like punch-voke or thunder strike making the smaller AoE an X-foot radius/X-target max and the larger AoE Y-feet/Y-Target max... a 1 foot radius TAoE would, for example, only hit 1 target... that being the anchor of the TAoE, I think.
In the case of thunderstrike, you activate the power and it summons 2 targeted AoEs... first is tagged with a tiny radius and guaranteed critical, while the 2nd has a larger radius and different damage scale. Either that or, maybe it just spawns a pet on the original target that casts an AoE effect? OK, time for bed now I think... |
To see how Thunderstrike works, look at Explosive blast. EB does smashing and energy damage to the target and all foes within 10ft of that target with a chance to KB all of those targets 50% of the time. TS does smashing damage to *only* the target and energy damage to all foes within 8ft of the target (the target included) plus an 80% chance to KD and a 50% chance to stun the target.
The easiest way to describe it is TS is 2 attacks, a smashing damage ST attack that stuns plus a targeted AoE energy damage attack with KD. The rules of Hide still applies so the ST part will always crit from hide while the AoE will only have a 50% chance on everything.
And just to state: I *do* have an Elec/Regen stalker sitting at lvl 46 and I use TS often on him. It's not a trick, fluke or bug. TS *will* crit on the target you choose 100% from hide while the rest around that target won't always crit. If you're truly skeptical, try making an Elec Stalker and trying it for yourself. And honestly, I think every Stalker fan should have at least 1 Elec Melee Stalker ^_^
Quote:
Huh... Duly noted. I don't think I'd rely on that, however. It's cool that it's there, but not if it costs me a use of Placate. Placating an enemy I don't intend to fight for a while has been very helpful of late.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yes. Check out the thread The Single Most Damaging Attack.
|
I just think it's interesting to let that be a chance occurrence on all hidden criticals without special precautions, but I don't think that's very likely to happen, as I have no real argument for why it's good other than "Wouldn't it be cool?"
Quote:
|
To see how Thunderstrike works, look at Explosive blast. EB does smashing and energy damage to the target and all foes within 10ft of that target with a chance to KB all of those targets 50% of the time. TS does smashing damage to *only* the target and energy damage to all foes within 8ft of the target (the target included) plus an 80% chance to KD and a 50% chance to stun the target. The easiest way to describe it is TS is 2 attacks, a smashing damage ST attack that stuns plus a targeted AoE energy damage attack with KD. The rules of Hide still applies so the ST part will always crit from hide while the AoE will only have a 50% chance on everything. |
However, the way you describe it, it sounds like only the physical part of Thunder Strike has a guaranteed critical, whereas the Energy part has a chance critical, meaning that you still have to roll the dice if you want a full critical on your specific target. This concerns me, but it's still better than nothing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
To the highlighted part: sortof, but not really. It depends on how you define "attack" and "secondary effects".|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So essentially what you're saying is multi-damage-type attacks are actually multiple attacks, each with its own damage type and possibly secondary effects? Be nice if that showed up in real numbers.
However, the way you describe it, it sounds like only the physical part of Thunder Strike has a guaranteed critical, whereas the Energy part has a chance critical, meaning that you still have to roll the dice if you want a full critical on your specific target. This concerns me, but it's still better than nothing. |
Specifically, the power activates, possibly has a to-hit roll, and then the effects of the power go off - and these effects can have different AoE radius and max targets. If the attack does smashing damage, that's "an effect"; if it also does energy, that's a separate effect entirely. If there's a "chance for" something happening, such as a 50% chance for stun or 50% chance for more energy damage, there's another roll to determine if that effect happened or not. If there's a specific condition for something to happen, such as kMeter > 0.9 (ie, Hidden status or Domination active) then all of those effects go off - whether it's another tick of damage or another hold that lasts a little longer.
So, is each tick of damage a separate attack, or is it all lumped into one attack because it all relies on one initial tohit? Well, at that point it's all semantics. But if you count the different damage ticks as different attacks, then each secondary effect is also a "different attack", because it's treated the same way.
And for what it's worth, Tankers have NO single-target attack powers. Gauntlet works (and many, many procs were broken causing them to turn Gauntlet off temporarily right after i9) because all of their "single target" attacks are actually AoE attacks, where the damage component is restricted to just the target and the taunt portion being distributed to the full AoE. Stalker Ablating Strike works the same way (so that it can complete the Sweep combo), which is why you see it listed with a 10' AoE.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
So, wait a minute: If that's how these things are defined, then what's the point of having a single range listing for a power when each of its effects can have their own unique ranges? For instance, if I fire a power that has smashing damage, lethal damage an knockback components (like M30 Grenade), then I can do Lethal damage in a 5 foot radius, smashing damage in a 10 foot radius and knockback in a 15 foot radius? Is that what you're saying?
Wouldn't it make more sense to list ranges per effect, then? Or at least list the ranges of effects which differentiate from the range stated for the power? That would certainly make powers like Lightning Rod and Shield Charge a LOT easier to figure out when you look at their real numbers. To this day I still can't remember which damage component has what range, and neither City of Data nor Real Numbers, nor indeed Mids' Hero & Villain Designer will tell me. Not even the power description makes a mention of this.
It certainly makes a lot more sense of how the system is rigged, though. Thank you for enlightening me to this aspect. I always thought power effects were locked to the power's type and range.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Yes, but I'm specifically mentioning AoE size, not "range" - all of the effects have the same "range" (ie, the maximum distance that you can target and have the game allow the power to go off without an "out of range" error). That's one of the aspects of the power that I believe is constant across all of the effects (along with endurance cost, animation time, rooted time, and a few others).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So, wait a minute: If that's how these things are defined, then what's the point of having a single range listing for a power when each of its effects can have their own unique ranges? For instance, if I fire a power that has smashing damage, lethal damage an knockback components (like M30 Grenade), then I can do Lethal damage in a 5 foot radius, smashing damage in a 10 foot radius and knockback in a 15 foot radius? Is that what you're saying?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wouldn't it make more sense to list ranges per effect, then? Or at least list the ranges of effects which differentiate from the range stated for the power? That would certainly make powers like Lightning Rod and Shield Charge a LOT easier to figure out when you look at their real numbers. To this day I still can't remember which damage component has what range, and neither City of Data nor Real Numbers, nor indeed Mids' Hero & Villain Designer will tell me. Not even the power description makes a mention of this.
It certainly makes a lot more sense of how the system is rigged, though. Thank you for enlightening me to this aspect. I always thought power effects were locked to the power's type and range. |
I'm not certain that is the case, but if it was I don't think it would be worthwhile to try to get each radius outside of the game since most of it's public/shared knowledge at this point for the few powers that have varying AoE sizes and inside the game you have questions about where to place it in the UI and if it's worth it compared to just reading all of the effects in order and regurgitating them onto what's already there. Already some things that you can find on City of Data aren't present in the "in-game" numbers - such as elusivity - and if I were guessing it's because it simply discards anything that the UI handler doesn't understand.
TL;DR version: yes it makes sense, but I don't expect it to happen.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Yes, that's not the "range" I was talking about, you are correct |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yes, but I'm specifically mentioning AoE size, not "range" - all of the effects have the same "range" (ie, the maximum distance that you can target and have the game allow the power to go off without an "out of range" error). That's one of the aspects of the power that I believe is constant across all of the effects (along with endurance cost, animation time, rooted time, and a few others).
|
The range of power activation is completely separate from the power's effects, as it determines when the power can even begin tracing through its effects stack. However, AoE radius and possibly cone range (both angle and radius) are specific to each effect, rather than just effects that apply to one uniform "area" for the entire power. As such, it would make sense to at least those instances when effects don't conform to what the power suggests. After all, it is a LIE when Thunder Strike tells you it's an AoE, only for you to realise that the bulk of its damage isn't after you've already taken it.Quote:
| It would definitely make more sense from the player's point of view to see that Lightning Rod and post-nerf Shield Charge only deal their full damage to a small radius (3' and 5' respectively, iirc), but I don't know that it wasn't originally deliberately obfuscated just to prevent people from figuring those parts out to prevent reverse-engineering. |
If I look at Ignite, the game tells me it has an accuracy of 2.0. Wow! That's great! I'll never have to slot it for accuracy, right? Right? Wrong! The summon has an accuracy of 2.0. The actual Burn patch that you summon, and which does the damage, has the standard 1.0 accuracy. Furthermore, nowhere in there can you see what kind of AoE range that Burn patch has, because the type and range listed are those of the summon, not of the actual power.
Want something that's even more fun. Check out the Real Numbers for Mastermind -> Traps -> Detonator. And may the force be with you, because you will fail to get any info out of that. Or how about the resistance numbers for Dodge, Agile and Lucky? "Special"% resistance to all. Yeah, thanks. That really cleared it up.
This attempt to make Real Numbers "simpler" just serves to make them confusing and false. And I pointed a great many of these problems out when Real Numbers were still in Beta, and I was completely ignored.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Not particularly. For who the Real Numbers are meant for, they serve their purpose to describe in non-cryptic terms what a power does ('superior' damage doesn't tell us much and often times those type of descriptors *really* are false). For newer players that aren't even looking at how much damage/effect a power does, just 'what' it does and to what magnitude, I don't see the issue.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This attempt to make Real Numbers "simpler" just serves to make them confusing and false. And I pointed a great many of these problems out when Real Numbers were still in Beta, and I was completely ignored. |
For people like you and me, that want the specifics, it's not like the information isn't there. Otherwise, how are we knowing the effects of these powers now?
What you seem to want is the inside mechanics of a power (like how does the new Gauntlet work or Jolting Chain function, etc.) because for the general purpose of a power, it kinda doesn't matter if the radius is really 25ft or broken up into smaller areas. All we need to know is, once you click LR/SC, everything blows up.
Quote:
If I want to know how much damage Lightning Rod does, real numbers won't tell me. They give me damage components, but they don't tell me that they're separated by different ranges. If I want to know how much damage Thunder Strike does, real numbers will lie to me. It looks like it's an incredibly powerful AoE. In fact, it's a pretty good single-target attack with not all that great AoE damage. Worse on a Blaster, in fact, where more of the damage is single-target-only. If I want to know what damage Chain Induction does, the game will tell me something like 700+, because it counts all the jumps together. It looks like a lot, but it really isn't, because Nova doesn't tell you it does thousands and thousands of damage by adding up all 16 possible targets together. And it doesn't even tell you which damage component goes towards which part of the power. If I want to know how accurate Ignite is, real numbers will lie to me and tell me that it has double the normal accuracy. I will be asking for the accuracy of the FIRE, not the summon, but because the power pretends pseudo-pets don't exist, it will give you the accuracy of the summon.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not particularly. For who the Real Numbers are meant for, they serve their purpose to describe in non-cryptic terms what a power does ('superior' damage doesn't tell us much and often times those type of descriptors *really* are false). For newer players that aren't even looking at how much damage/effect a power does, just 'what' it does and to what magnitude, I don't see the issue.
|
Real numbers lie, and they don't lie infrequently. Phalanx Phighting still doesn't list all of its defence numbers, Detonator doesn't list anything useful at all, SR passive list "special" resistance percentages, Stalker out-of-combat criticals still list "special" chance to score a critical, Scrapper Head Splitter adds its critical damage portion in the average power damage where none of the other Broadsword powers do, creating an artificially inflated and false total damage number, powers like Transfusion and that one from Cold Domination still make no attempt to show that their buffs are per target. The list goes on.
If a new player tried to use Real Numbers and was unlucky enough to have a few of these powers that lie, then this player would be LOST, because the real numbers are not real. I have nothing against keeping the numbers simpler, if these numbers reflected the truth. When a power uses a pseudo-pet, then don't list the accuracy of the summon. List the accuracy of whatever the offensive power of that pet is. If you're listing for Trip Mine, then list the accuracy for the Trip Mine power as possessed by the pet itself. If you're listing for Burn, then don't list the accuracy of the summon, list the accuracy of the offensive power the Flames pet uses. It doesn't have to be more complicated. But it should be correct without HAVING to know the complicated mechanics so as to be able to predict what will be false.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Most of those aren't really lies, just not the info you're looking for. While I'm all for changing the visible numbers to the ones that 'matter', I don't think we need to expand it to all the mechanics and break down the power piece by piece.
I'm pretty sure, if a new person sees that Chain Induction does 700 dmg in the numbers then tries to use it and sees 'Chain Shock', they'll figure 'Oh, it must be spread or something'. If they're just newbs, they'll chock it up to the magic numbers behind the curtain. If they're like you and me, they'll dig for more info, undoubtedly coming to the forum with a question like 'Does it do all 700 dmg on one target or is it suppose to spread to others'. That isn't to say I don't think those numbers should reflect the power better (I'd probably just put the initial damage on CI and not even state the jump damage, probably just leaving those jumps as a 'bonus'), just that we don't need to see the range of the jump, how the ToHit decreases per-jump, that it creates a temp power on the foe that causes it to summon said jump, etc.
It'd be nice to have a function that *does* show us in depth each power, but leaving the real numbers simple with a [show everything] command would be great.
Well, continuing playing my stalker, and really, from a team stand point and solo wise, I think Stalkers, still, just need a higher damage mod.
Now, the only problem I see with this, is PvP, so what could be done is have the current damage mod in PvP and a higher one in PvE.
An increase in health would still be handy as well, just so all the sets can make use of the +Health granted in set bonuses, or even Frostworks from Cold Domination users, as it's just to easy to cap HP and have set bonuses go to waste right now.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Sure, I can go with that. So long as there's SOME way to know.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It'd be nice to have a function that *does* show us in depth each power, but leaving the real numbers simple with a [show everything] command would be great.
|
Just as a random example, I was talking about Shield Charge with a friend of mine today, who had somehow missed the change that came with I18. He asked me what the ranges had been changed to, and I had to sheepishly explain to him that I haven't the faintest idea. And I don't. I know one damage component is on the full AoE range as listed and one is on a smaller one. However, I don't know how much smaller the smaller AoE is, nor do I know which component applies to which range. I assume the larger component is on the smaller range, but again - I'm assuming. I don't have the power on that character yet to test it for myself, so I DO NOT KNOW.
However, to a casual observer looking at the real numbers without prior knowledge, he's see that Shield Charge is a large AoE and deals two damage components and have no reason but to believe that both damage components apply to the entire range. Hence, the numbers will lie to him, like they really shouldn't. I have nothing against hiding even more complicated numbers behind a toggle option, but I do insist that the numbers which are listed at least be clear and true.
Just as a side note, by the way, I have long since stopped agreeing with Jack's vision of real numbers and how they only confused people with needless complexity. Having a clear, unambiguous write-up of what your powers do and how they compare to each other has proven to be ESSENTIAL to making a decent character, at least to me. Granted, new people usually don't bother, but for the most part that's because new people don't yet have a concept of how good a character can be. I know I spent the entire first year of City of Heroes without status protection, believing it was worthless.
I've always believed in letting players know how the game works and what their controls do, but not really REQUIRING them to go through all the numbers. Real Numbers aren't even enabled by default, and Combat Attributes are even more hidden.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Do you realise what you're suggesting here? If you raise Stalker hit points in any way, they become Scrapper hit points. If you raise Stalker damage, it pretty much becomes Scrapper damage. They already have Scrapper defensive numbers on top of that all, so what you're suggesting is to make Stalkers into Scrappers with a higher percent chance to score criticals which goes up even higher on a team and the ability to score hidden criticals.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, continuing playing my stalker, and really, from a team stand point and solo wise, I think Stalkers, still, just need a higher damage mod.
An increase in health would still be handy as well, just so all the sets can make use of the +Health granted in set bonuses, or even Frostworks from Cold Domination users, as it's just to easy to cap HP and have set bonuses go to waste right now. |
I still maintain my opinion from before - Stalkers need to be improved, but not by making them more like Scrappers. If necessary, increase the size of their hidden and combat criticals up to 120% power damage or some such, or make their Hide harder to break or unbreakable by outside forces, make them rehide even faster, make them rehide on a kill or on a critical or what have you. If Stalkers are to be improved, they should be improved to be better at what they're designed around, not better at not using that mechanic.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
While I agree, what I'm saying is, to properly tell the reader what a power does in the detail you're looking for, it'd basically have to write up an entire paragraph explaining it to the minutest detail because the way some powers work are odd. Perfect, I suppose, for if you're wondering how a certain proc will work in a power or whatever...but even then, it'd be like reading a bible and may require a guru to reassure you're comprehending it correctly.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Just as a side note, by the way, I have long since stopped agreeing with Jack's vision of real numbers and how they only confused people with needless complexity. Having a clear, unambiguous write-up of what your powers do and how they compare to each other has proven to be ESSENTIAL to making a decent character, at least to me. Granted, new people usually don't bother, but for the most part that's because new people don't yet have a concept of how good a character can be. I know I spent the entire first year of City of Heroes without status protection, believing it was worthless.
I've always believed in letting players know how the game works and what their controls do, but not really REQUIRING them to go through all the numbers. Real Numbers aren't even enabled by default, and Combat Attributes are even more hidden. |
IMO, you're better off seeking the guru who will most likely know the numbers and how to explain the powers' function.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Do you realise what you're suggesting here? If you raise Stalker hit points in any way, they become Scrapper hit points. If you raise Stalker damage, it pretty much becomes Scrapper damage. They already have Scrapper defensive numbers on top of that all, so what you're suggesting is to make Stalkers into Scrappers with a higher percent chance to score criticals which goes up even higher on a team and the ability to score hidden criticals.
I still maintain my opinion from before - Stalkers need to be improved, but not by making them more like Scrappers. If necessary, increase the size of their hidden and combat criticals up to 120% power damage or some such, or make their Hide harder to break or unbreakable by outside forces, make them rehide even faster, make them rehide on a kill or on a critical or what have you. If Stalkers are to be improved, they should be improved to be better at what they're designed around, not better at not using that mechanic. |
...and I might have had a few beers, so that might be changing my perspective.
Quote:
o.O I've played both (and A LOT OF scrappers)...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Do you realise what you're suggesting here? If you raise Stalker hit points in any way, they become Scrapper hit points. If you raise Stalker damage, it pretty much becomes Scrapper damage. They already have Scrapper defensive numbers on top of that all, so what you're suggesting is to make Stalkers into Scrappers with a higher percent chance to score criticals which goes up even higher on a team and the ability to score hidden criticals.
I still maintain my opinion from before - Stalkers need to be improved, but not by making them more like Scrappers. If necessary, increase the size of their hidden and combat criticals up to 120% power damage or some such, or make their Hide harder to break or unbreakable by outside forces, make them rehide even faster, make them rehide on a kill or on a critical or what have you. If Stalkers are to be improved, they should be improved to be better at what they're designed around, not better at not using that mechanic. |
I didn't say raise their base health, just the cap and I'm not even saying raise it to Scrapper cap level.
That aside, raising the damage shouldn't be a problem, they should already be the highest damaging melee, and they're not.
Though, you have made me think of another idea...
Lower Assassin Strike End Cost! Maybe even to zero. The best DPE attack! And if it fails to go off for whatever reason, you're not screwed out of the END.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Well... To the example at hand, all it would take is if the power said:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
While I agree, what I'm saying is, to properly tell the reader what a power does in the detail you're looking for, it'd basically have to write up an entire paragraph explaining it to the minutest detail because the way some powers work are odd. Perfect, I suppose, for if you're wondering how a certain proc will work in a power or whatever...but even then, it'd be like reading a bible and may require a guru to reassure you're comprehending it correctly.
|
51.51 points of Smashing damage (5 feet radius)
21.12 points of Smashing damage
I made the numbers up as they're not important, but that single appendix to the one one effect which doesn't conform to the full AoE range would answer my question without need for explanation or pop-up, just like the "when hidden" appendix does to Stalker Hidden criticals.
*edit*
I just picked up Shield Charge and went to look at its real numbers. I've been saying "large AoE" up until now because I honestly don't know HOW big the power's AoE is. I assumed Real Numbers had that listed and I just hadn't checked, but they in fact don't. The power is listed as:
Quote:
|
Power Type:Click Target Type:Location Power Range:60.00 ft. Effect Area:Location |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
When you said "health," I assumed base health. My bad.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I didn't say raise their base health, just the cap and I'm not even saying raise it to Scrapper cap level.
|
Quote:
| That aside, raising the damage shouldn't be a problem, they should already be the highest damaging melee, and they're not. |
Quote:
|
Lower Assassin Strike End Cost! Maybe even to zero. The best DPE attack! And if it fails to go off for whatever reason, you're not screwed out of the END.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
But the way you want it listed won't tell you everything. For the LR-esque power you put up, it doesn't give all the info like the accuracy, the summon range, that it teleports the character, etc. Basically, by the time you've listed everything, it will be a pretty clustered bunch of info that may be hard for newer players to comprehend. The options for seasoned players to see it would be nice though.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well... To the example at hand, all it would take is if the power said:
51.51 points of Smashing damage (5 feet radius) 21.12 points of Smashing damage I made the numbers up as they're not important, but that single appendix to the one one effect which doesn't conform to the full AoE range would answer my question without need for explanation or pop-up, just like the "when hidden" appendix does to Stalker Hidden criticals. *edit* I just picked up Shield Charge and went to look at its real numbers. I've been saying "large AoE" up until now because I honestly don't know HOW big the power's AoE is. I assumed Real Numbers had that listed and I just hadn't checked, but they in fact don't. The power is listed as: If we wanted to pretend pseudo-pets don't exist, then this power's "Effect Area" would have an actual effect area listed. If I look at, say, whirling Axe, this has "AoE -- 8.00 ft. radius (10 targets max)" listed. So what IS the are of effect of Shield Charge? I do not know. Honestly. And real numbers will not tell me. I know WHY they won't tell me, but I know because I have detailed knowledge of the underlying structure. A new player would be left completely uninformed. |
As for the radius of SC/LR, yeah, the pseudopet has a cast radius of 20ft, I believe. The pseudopet has the ranges built into it's powers (looking at redtomax, it just says the attack does 3 tics of damage. probably not over the entire range of its cast radius). But SC shows 2 pets at work, one with a sphere and the other with a cone...I honestly don't know if that's true or if it was from the old SC that was changed early in its life. AFAIK, both powers work the exact same way.
Quote:
Shield charge from the Patch Notes/2010-08-16|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
*edit*
I just picked up Shield Charge and went to look at its real numbers. I've been saying "large AoE" up until now because I honestly don't know HOW big the power's AoE is. I assumed Real Numbers had that listed and I just hadn't checked, but they in fact don't. The power is listed as: |
Brute Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 1.8 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.275
Tanker Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 2.04 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.445
Scrapper Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 2.7 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.9125
And if you want a giggle, look up the effects for /poison's noxious gas in real numbers or oil slick arrow, for that matter.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Quote:
Actually, Shield Charge already reports that it teleports you, as it lists 1.00 Teleport on self. Granted, it's not exactly clear what that means, but at least it's listed. And you don't really need to list much more. Simply list the power's range as "AoE, 20ft range (16 targets max)" instead of "location" and append a "(5ft radius)" to the smaller-area damage component. Oh, and list the accuracy of the pseudo-pet in the Accuracy field, rather than the accuracy of the summon. This does nothing beyond fix two wrong values and add a small addition to one effect. It doesn't really make things any more complex, it just makes them correct.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But the way you want it listed won't tell you everything. For the LR-esque power you put up, it doesn't give all the info like the accuracy, the summon range, that it teleports the character, etc. Basically, by the time you've listed everything, it will be a pretty clustered bunch of info that may be hard for newer players to comprehend. The options for seasoned players to see it would be nice though.
|
I sincerely hope that real numbers can be tweaked by hand after they've been dumped directly from the powers.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Shield charge from the Patch Notes/2010-08-16
Brute Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 1.8 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.275 Tanker Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 2.04 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.445 Scrapper Version: Damage broken into 2 stages -- stage one has a 5' radius and does scale 2.7 Stage 2 has a 20' radius and does scale 1.9125 And if you want a giggle, look up the effects for /poison's noxious gas in real numbers or oil slick arrow, for that matter. |
It's a little bit scary that the only place to find that info is in patch notes. Still, thank you kindly for the numbers, William. At least I'll know what I'm doing now, and I WILL remember that. 20 feet is a huge area, though. I can see why it was "tweaked."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
YES! Remember me, you stupid forgetful forum software! Ahem...
I've already suggested that the Hidden status doesn't actually break from being attacked and only from attacking, but people didn't seem to take that well. I suppose I can see how this would be overpowered, but really, all that does is let Stalkers actually pull off their criticals, instead of constantly getting them interrupted. And it doesn't help you pull off an Assassin's Strike, because that's still interruptible.
You know what else I'd like to see? A chance for a "double critical." Every time a Stalker lands a guaranteed critical from Hide, he also has, say, a 5% chance to score ANOTHER critical on top of that. It's not something that's predictable or indeed very useful, as Scrapper criticals have shown us, but that added chance for ZOMGWTF?!? damage every once in a blue moon when your Total Focus happens to crit twice might grant a few smiles here and there. I don't foresee adding the chance for a double critical to basic out-of-Hide scrapping, however.
Really, though, those are just random ideas. I would be perfectly satisfied with Leo's idea of a re-hide on a kill (or an enemy defeat on which the Stalker did the most damage) and possibly making Hide harder to break by external forces. The rest is fluff.
*edit*
GOD DAMN REMEMBER ME YOU PIECE OF CRAP FORUM SOFTWARE!!!
Something that's probably been suggested, but how about adding a placate to every out-of-Hide critical? That still encourages Stalkers to fight, it still encourages them to seek teams (as the chance to placate increases), it helps them deal better damage and so be more useful to teams, and it makes sense - you just hit that guy right in the nuts, say, so he's likely to lose focus for a moment and lose sight of you.
*edit*
Oh, and before I forget - bringing Build Up up to 100% (at least) is something I've meant to support from the start, but I kept forgetting.
*edit*
I apologise for the disorganised nature of this post, but I'm putting these down as I remember them.
Can we please give target AoE powers and cones a guaranteed critical on JUST the target you're aiming for? That way, Head Splitter and Thunder Strike don't have to suck for criticals out of hide.