On behalf of all player characters who drain endurance, I effing hope not! enemies with 10 endurance can go on blasting 20 times longer than I could with a full 100 (assuming I didn't have stamina)...
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Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
On behalf of all player characters who drain endurance, I effing hope not! enemies with 10 endurance can go on blasting 20 times longer than I could with a full 100 (assuming I didn't have stamina)...
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Seconded.
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Yes, three facepalms. 
Not trying to be rude, but I don't see how you'd think they'd get it for a SECOND.
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Actually, there are a few hundred there if you consider what the second picture is made up of. |
Originally Posted by Terminal Velocity
Yes, three facepalms.
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Do mobs even use endurance? I've never seen them unable to use a power because they've run out
@Golden Girl
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Naw, NPC endurance works different than ours. No matter how little endurance they have, they can still use at least one attack. Even .01% will let them use their default melee or ranged attack, so they really don't have the need for quicker recovery. If they have absolutely 0 points, then they're stuck, but any more than that and it's a non-issue. Extra regeneration would be a touch odd and wouldn't add any meaningful challenge, but for anything less than a boss, it'd be a non-issue because they regen so slowly to begin with anyway.
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On my kin, I regularly drain their Endurance to nothing and they have to wait for a point or two to recover before using one of their week attacks. At least it prevents them from using their larger ones.. most of the time.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Do mobs even use endurance? I've never seen them unable to use a power because they've run out
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But as mentioned, they can Recover quickly sometimes, and it only takes those few points to get another shot off.
The thing that sucks the most about it is that enemies usually have more Endurance than we do. I think minions have 100 like we do (at base), but Bosses have twice that much, and EBs and AVs may even double that too.
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nope
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Originally Posted by paleninja
playing today i noticed mob endurence bars go down quicker then mine, so was wondering if they was getting fitness as well too even things out and make things more fair.
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And, now that I think about it, the only mobs I've ever noticed using any significant portion of their endurance are npc allies, and Praetorian Clockwork (the minions)...
Although it may be that many of the Praetorian groups were made this way, I only recall it on the Clockwork sweepers, cleaners, etc...
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Actually, Minions only have 80 end, Lts have 120, and bosses have about 200.|
Originally Posted by Master-Blade
The thing that sucks the most about it is that enemies usually have more Endurance than we do. I think minions have 100 like we do (at base), but Bosses have twice that much, and EBs and AVs may even double that too.
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Further more, NPCs USUALLY only need end to attack, but never for armor toggles most NPC armors are passives anyway, but the AE versions of armors also do not use end, debuff toggles or damage auras however, do consume end.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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Easy way to figure if an NPC version of a toggle uses end - Pretty much if it's player version is suppressed when you are mezzed, the NPC version is going to be a click or passive.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Actually, Minions only have 80 end, Lts have 120, and bosses have about 200.
Further more, NPCs USUALLY only need end to attack, but never for armor toggles most NPC armors are passives anyway, but the AE versions of armors also do not use end, debuff toggles or damage auras however, do consume end. |
If the toggle is shut off when mezzed, it's going to be a toggle power most likely.
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My Electric Blaster's basic defense/strategy for soloing anything (especially EBs or AVs) relies on her core ability to sap all the END from the MOBs she faces. If she couldn't do that she'd be nearly helpless. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Do mobs even use endurance? I've never seen them unable to use a power because they've run out
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As the others have said you have to be able to sap them down to zero END before you completely stop them from attacking you, but it's not terribly hard to do that if you have an AT/powerset fundamentally designed to do that.
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While they have end and health bars like players, mobs don't get their power "picks" based on anything like the system players use. For example, broadly speaking, every mob has its own version of every power they use.
Basically, there's no reason to expect mobs to get Fitness powers.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It might vary by mob type and/or level then because I was trotting through Sharkhead and RWZ verifying random mobs before I posted that. Every minion I saw showed as having 100 endurance. The LTs showed 140, and Bosses were 200.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Actually, Minions only have 80 end, Lts have 120, and bosses have about 200.
Further more, NPCs USUALLY only need end to attack, but never for armor toggles most NPC armors are passives anyway, but the AE versions of armors also do not use end, debuff toggles or damage auras however, do consume end. |
Edit:
I just took another run through various lvl foes and recorded the numbers:
I didn't find any minions with only 80 Endurance, but it looks like there is some slight variation at the lower levels, so anything is certainly possible. Either way, the point stands. LTs and Bosses have higher Endurance than players do, and EB/Monsters significantly moreso.
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With this is mind, what is AV/GM endurance and average recovery rate? Also, what is the inherent EB/AV/GM ability linked as in-game? I was around when it was introduced, but I'd like to see the link for it in-game, since I never saw an actual name for it. I can't see your photobucket picture do to blocked access currently, if the mentioned information is there.
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Originally Posted by Master-Blade
It might vary by mob type and/or level then because I was trotting through Sharkhead and RWZ verifying random mobs before I posted that. Every minion I saw showed as having 100 endurance. The LTs showed 140, and Bosses were 200.
Edit: I just took another run through various lvl foes and recorded the numbers: I didn't find any minions with only 80 Endurance, but it looks like there is some slight variation at the lower levels, so anything is certainly possible. Either way, the point stands. LTs and Bosses have significantly higher Endurance than players do, and EB/Monsters even moreso. I think we can all agree that Minion Endurance is kinda silly to worry about because you could usually kill it faster than it would take you to sap it's Endurance down to nothing anyway. lol |
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Sorry, I temporarily deleted the picture to refresh it with a new version containing the EB and Monster Endurance. It should be fine now if you refresh it.|
Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
I can't see your photobucket picture do to blocked access currently, if the mentioned information is there.
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Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
With this is mind, what is AV/GM endurance and average recovery rate?
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It looks like they might have the same base rate we do, but because of their higher value, it's significantly more end/sec.
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Originally Posted by Bringer_NA
Also, what is the inherent EB/AV/GM ability linked as in-game? I was around when it was introduced, but I'd like to see the link for it in-game, since I never saw an actual name for it.
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And I do believe that AVs share that 800 base endurance (and attendant large end point/sec recovery rate).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Try playing an Electric Brute. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Do mobs even use endurance? I've never seen them unable to use a power because they've run out
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An application or two of a well-slotted Power Sink, especially against custom AE enemies (whose authors wanted them to have every possible power in thier set to be MOAR X-TREME!!) and they will be waiting for End to come back or for thier weakest attack to recharge.
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This is an odd persistent myth. Critters use endurance in exactly, precisely the same way we do. Powers that have endurance cost burn that endurance upon use, and if the critter lacks that level of endurance the power cannot be used.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Naw, NPC endurance works different than ours. No matter how little endurance they have, they can still use at least one attack. Even .01% will let them use their default melee or ranged attack, so they really don't have the need for quicker recovery. If they have absolutely 0 points, then they're stuck, but any more than that and it's a non-issue. Extra regeneration would be a touch odd and wouldn't add any meaningful challenge, but for anything less than a boss, it'd be a non-issue because they regen so slowly to begin with anyway.
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In particular, critters recover endurance with the same basic mechanism, which means they recover endurance in ticks of 6.67%. So a minion with a 100 point endurance bar will only recover endurance in 6.67 point jumps. If you are trying to drain them with drain but without -recovery, you won't be able to prevent them from getting at least an occasional tick of endurance. If they have attacks that need less than 6.67 endurance, they will be able to use them and will probably fire them off right away. But they will be stopped from using powers with higher costs if you can keep them to only one tick. Even with the 200 point bar of Bosses, holding them to 13.33 points or less does mean you'll tend to negate their heavy hitting powers and AoEs. AVs, on the other hand, are virtually impossible to inactivate without heavy -recovery, because a single recovery tick on an AV is enough endurance to use just about any power in existence (~53 points of endurance).
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I'd confirm this - its simple enough for sapper builds to end drain most mobs except AVs and with -recovery they don't get to attack back.
Easy to see against Babbage and also works very well against Famine Riders and an end drained Hami is amusing as well.
I use it regularly on my Kin/Elec Def when soloing especially against Malta - hold the Sapper (they have frightening levels of end drain resist), short circuit the Gunslingers, Zeus' and any other mob in range and Transfusion on any mezzer/Zeus out of range of it results in zero threat.
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I'd be more worried about Swift on Mobs. How the hell am I suppose to catach runners?
Also, will veteran mobs get the black wand and/or the nemesis staff in I19?
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As i recall the endurance cost of mob powers tends to be higher than the player equivalent as well even with the player powers unslotted.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This is an odd persistent myth. Critters use endurance in exactly, precisely the same way we do. Powers that have endurance cost burn that endurance upon use, and if the critter lacks that level of endurance the power cannot be used.
In particular, critters recover endurance with the same basic mechanism, which means they recover endurance in ticks of 6.67%. So a minion with a 100 point endurance bar will only recover endurance in 6.67 point jumps. If you are trying to drain them with drain but without -recovery, you won't be able to prevent them from getting at least an occasional tick of endurance. If they have attacks that need less than 6.67 endurance, they will be able to use them and will probably fire them off right away. But they will be stopped from using powers with higher costs if you can keep them to only one tick. Even with the 200 point bar of Bosses, holding them to 13.33 points or less does mean you'll tend to negate their heavy hitting powers and AoEs. AVs, on the other hand, are virtually impossible to inactivate without heavy -recovery, because a single recovery tick on an AV is enough endurance to use just about any power in existence (~53 points of endurance). |
Not too worried about them getting Hurdle since many mobs can do a two story vertical jump if the AI tells it to do it.
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I want my AE customs to get Stamina.
They run out too fast.
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It is: critters typically burn 1.35x the endurance that players do when using comparable powers. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
As i recall the endurance cost of mob powers tends to be higher than the player equivalent as well even with the player powers unslotted.
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However, higher ranked critters also have larger endurance bars, so on a percentage basis critters of higher rank than minion burn less of their bar per power relative to players.
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playing today i noticed mob endurence bars go down quicker then mine, so was wondering if they was getting fitness as well too even things out and make things more fair.