The game aggro tables seem broken to me

I haven't played in a few years and I've come back.
Lots of changes and many of them are very cool.

But there is one thing I've been able to notice in a very short amount of time.
the Aggro tables are all messed up. Tanks have negative aggro now.

I have a controller with inviso ( ill/kin ) and there was a stone tank.
it was a small team of 4 and all was fine at +1 so we made it +2.

Now the only invisible person on the team was the #1 target no matter where we went. I can't understand how the invisible person is targeted when there is a tank there, not invisible.

I can't heal myself as kinetic without getting close to something but I couldn't get close to anything without 5 missles ( each of which could one shot me ) killing me.

I tried everything, waiting for 15 seconds for the tank to get aggro but one SB from me and poof I was dead. everyone was having a laugh about it until I had died about 6-7 times. At this point I was just pissed and didn't want to play anymore.

I rolled a new toon and someone asked me to join an AE farm. I didn't expect to survive anything at level 1 even side kicked but what I noticed was that the tank could only hold aggro on about 10 elements of out the 50+ in the room. once I level rez-ed the remaining 40 elements would immediately attack me, even those outside of the room would come running in to kill me.

it seems the best thing you can be is a tank or scrapper where the game mechanics actually protect you from gaining too much aggro while healers or squishies don't get any kind of protection. anyone who buffs is dead meat.

anyone else notice this anti-tank aggro.

Haven't noticed this, but from your story I can point out two possible causes:

1) A tank can only hold 16 enemies. That's the aggro cap, if there are any more enemies they'll attack someone else.

2) Enemies with +perception. These will see straight through your invisibility and also attack you from further away if you have no stealth effects. This together with condition one could cause heaps of enemies attacking you and your team even though there was a tank.

The other issue you were having on a new toon sounds like ambush aggro. Even with a stalker that is hidden, ambush mobs always know where you are. Until the devs can figure out another way for ambushes to be smarter, that is how they will work.

There used to be a bug that would occur when a tanker taunted it would cause the invisible person to be attacked.

Maybe they ressurected it for Halloween ;p

Without more details, a story like this is not informative. What powersets did the tank have? Your Controller? What enemies were you fighting? Are you able to re-create this with different enemies? Different characters? What missions were you on. Trick-or-treating, zombie invasions, what?

It sounds from your description like it was only two things you tried, the Controller and the new character? How many days has this been happening?

It seems like precious little information to be making such sweeping generalizations about "how the game works now" and how some ATs are unplayable.

Especially since other people don't seem to be reporting this.

I also note your claim that buffing alone draws the aggro? That would be startling indeed, since the game has never worked that way and it wasn't working that way (for me) at least as recently as Thursday night.

My personal favourite is getting stealthed and leaving my aggro aura running. Why isn't this working!? Good times.

So let me get this straight... you're saying that you could be standing there, with Invisibility on(I'm assuming Superior Invis since you said you were Ill/Kin), the tank would run in, and then without you doing anything, everything attacks you?

Because if you used any powers that affected the mobs, they would be alerted to your presence. So even if you used Siphon Power, which while it buffs you, it debuffs them, it makes them see you, thus, the mob AI says "Hey, that guys making us feel weaker, attack him." This would especially be the case if the tank can't/isn't using taunt, or as has been pointed out previously, there are more mobs present than he CAN effectively hold the aggro for.

As I understand aggro, once a team mates initiates aggro, everyone on the team goes on all of the affected enemies' aggro list. Even if you were in another room, you'll still be added to the aggro list, but with a lesser threat level than the aggro'er.

If, for example, a tank was running around the room trying to herd, all affect enemies will aggro on him (ie he's at the top of their aggro list). However, with the aggro cap, only 17 will retain interest in him to follow. As the individual enemies of the initial 17 are being defeated, the other aggro'ed enemies start to perk up and move to the aggro'er (ie he's still at the top of their aggro list).

You know how that unless an enemy was directly taunted or attacked, their attention span on targets is fleeting. So during this period of aggro cap, depending on line of sight, the other aggro'ed enemies may switch their interest to someone else on the team. Even though you may be invisible and passive during the fight, you're still on their aggro list and they are aware of you. If the enemy hadn't been attacked or taunted yet, you've got even threat level with almost everyone else on your team, so you're fair game.

I'd suggest hanging out behind someone with a damage aura or tossing around a lot of AOEs.

Mmm...

There are many reasonable situations why you are getting attacked, and just as many idiotic ones as well...

Standard Reasons:
1. When a member of your group attacks, it alerts the enemies of the group's presence. That includes you, even if super invisible.
2. Lately Tank using players do not taunt, they depend on their very weak class inherent taunt. This is rough on support classes.
3. There is an aggroe cap, which also can be resisted by the mob. Just because the Tank could gather the attention to "upto" 16, does not mean 16 will go after him.
4. Some mobs have enhanced perception, and their plus to perception is truly stupid, "I can see anything, period. you can be as far as the door entrance, even if I am the very back and there are walls in between us", such as Rikti Drones and Nemesis Marksmen.
5. Ambushes, all have Stupid level plussed Perception
6. Status Effect dispensing Mobs if not successfully taunted, will mez first support ATs. They seem to prefer Controller types over Defenders. They also know, that attacking melee ATs is pointless with Status Effects, can't blame them there.

You may be voiding your own Stealth...
1. You attack someone and do damage
2. You attack sonmeone and miss
3. You debuff a mob
4. You debuff a mob and buff a friend, this really flags you for a whooping!
5. You use a buff PBAOE, that is like screaming "Honey I am home"
6. You do an area debuff, and buff friends at the same time; you must have a death wish... As tempting as fulcrum shift may be, if the tank or scrapper are not taunting, you may want to resist the urge to use it.
7. Healing, if you heal the tank by more than the mob's damage, you really made that mob angry and he is coming to explain the errors of your ways right now! It seems also , that mob gets some kind of resistance to taunt as well, or at least thats my perception as death dashes towards me and I am screaming like a little girl, get him off me!, get him off me! Ge..I am dead; the group now enjoys a quiet moment... The trick is to heal for less than the mob's hardest hit on the target to that moment.
8. It seems some mob groups, to have mobs that focus attacks on healer or buffer types. Longbow Spec Ops are notable for this. They lay towards the side and allow the fight to ensue, the moment a player buffs or heals, they go into action.

My suggestions towards survivability:

1. If you gonna debuff a mob, and especially if the debuff results with a player (Kin type powers) benefiting from it as a buff: Target thru the most damaging player (Blaster, Scrapper, Tanker), and hope their attacking a mob results with their having firm aggroe, otherwise you gonna be pushing daisies really soon.

2. Healing, I know we love to do PBAOE heal, but you taking a huge chance on over-healing a player by more than the damage they may have received by a mob! Don't be surprise if a large number of mobs, decide to stop attacking their current threat and they come looking for you. Single heal, manage your threat potential. Just think many AOEs have a very, very weak damage component, and many mobs do use these powers mostly to unstealth players. If you PBAOE heal, you WILL heal these players for much more than they suffered from the weak damage enemy PBAOE; you are in trouble sweetie...

3. never stand behind the group while in combat from the direction you came from, I mean "never". Choose a left or right side, go there and do your trade. Why I say this? All too often, something clicks and "an on your face ambush spawns". The ambush "always" spawns at the entrance to the room from the direction you came. Thus if you were in the back working your bunns off to keep your group going, your reward is now to have a full mob spawn all around you "instantaneously", and targeting you FIRST!, simple prevention to this bs, is don't stand at the back.

4. Hover is your friend, it really is. Hover beyond melee range always. You may find as a support AT capping your defense ability versus melee is nearly impossible, yet capping range and half way cap aoe is in the realm of possible. If the mobs are not 100% of the time auto hitting you, you may find your survivability dramatically improving!

5. Get added range to your heal and buff powers, the farther you can be, the less sporadic aggroe you will bring upon yourself, you will also have a lesser chance of being within an area of effect of an attack, the Malta and Longbow stun granade has very large radiuses, much more than you would think.

Hope this will help...


Stormy

There's a lot of things in this thread that appear to me to be misinformation or flat-out wrong. Several examples:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA Mmm... 2. Lately Tank using players do not taunt, they depend on their very weak class inherent taunt. This is rough on support classes.

A matter of opinion perhaps, but in many cases the inherent taunt (gauntlet) is by no means weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 4. Some mobs have enhanced perception, and their plus to perception is truly stupid, "I can see anything, period. you can be as far as the door entrance, even if I am the very back and there are walls in between us", such as Rikti Drones and Nemesis Marksmen.

Exaggerated. Nothing will see you and aggro onto you through a wall. If you're visible and they shoot, the shot can still hit if you subsequently duck behind a wall; but the game engine works like that for everybody (with the strange exception of player snipes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 5. Ambushes, all have Stupid level plussed Perception

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Ambushes just start out aggroed to you. Already aggroed mobs don't check perception, they just come and whack you. Stalker hate this, but they're not really being "spotted," per se, they're just being directly attacked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 6. Status Effect dispensing Mobs if not successfully taunted, will mez first support ATs. They seem to prefer Controller types over Defenders. They also know, that attacking melee ATs is pointless with Status Effects, can't blame them there.

I think this complaint is entirely imaginary; never heard of or encountered anything like it in six years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 5. You use a buff PBAOE, that is like screaming "Honey I am home"

The game is well-known to be one of the few in the industry without buff aggro or healing aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 7. Healing, if you heal the tank by more than the mob's damage, you really made that mob angry and he is coming to explain the errors of your ways right now! It seems also , that mob gets some kind of resistance to taunt as well, or at least thats my perception as death dashes towards me and I am screaming like a little girl, get him off me!, get him off me! Ge..I am dead; the group now enjoys a quiet moment... The trick is to heal for less than the mob's hardest hit on the target to that moment.

The game is well-known to be one of the few in the industry without buff aggro or healing aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA 8. It seems some mob groups, to have mobs that focus attacks on healer or buffer types. Longbow Spec Ops are notable for this. They lay towards the side and allow the fight to ensue, the moment a player buffs or heals, they go into action.

Never heard of, seen, or experienced this. The game is well-known to be one of the few in the industry without buff aggro or healing aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA If the mobs are not 100% of the time auto hitting you, you may find your survivability dramatically improving!

I agree hovering and ranged defense will help. However, note that mobs generally do not auto-hit and typically hit you 50% of the time or somewhat better -- and never hit 100% of the time unless they are using a real auto-hit attack.

Thank you for correcting Stormfront's many errors. I was getting madder and madder at his errors as I was reading his post.


Enemies CAN have healer aggro in this game. However, NONE of them do. It's just not coded into their AI.

The simple answer to this is that if there are 50+ foes in your spawn, you need 4 Tankers to hold their aggro. (3 will do it, but barely, 4 would be safer)

A Tanker should not be needed on a team, though. If you can figure out how to manage your aggro, you will not need a Tanker to defend you. As an Illusion Controller, one of the first things you can do is use Spooky and your other pets to hold down foes and take their aggro. Also be careful of the AoE debuffs. Siphon Power should be great for pulling one foe, but if you are buffing your allies with it that could draw attention. Or maybe you are using Transfusion or Fulcrum Shift.

Finally, if you're level 1 on a high level team (which means you wouldn't have the pets) you're going to have a hard time surviving. Either pick and choose your targets carefully, or find a lower level team.

I was not having aggro problems until the tank became part of our team. We had all squishy and we were doing great. two ill/rads and two basters didn't give anyone too much aggro. I was the only one doing buffs at the time the tank joined and I couldn't do anything, including buff without death.

my argument is that an aggro max of 17 or 15 or whatever it is actually is. This works out to the tanks advantage, if he got aggro from 30 he would die but with only aggro from such a small group he's fine. I say this because I saw it when I was doing farm and the tank never got more than 15 or so on him and when I level rez it sure seemed like more that 15 went after me.... but I had a limited view since I was blowing up so much.

Say the Tank ran around the room and made his presence felt to 3 full groups of enemies which consists of about 30 individuals. All 30 enemies immediately become fully aware of everyone on your team whether you're stealth or in the next room. The Tank has the highest threat level due to taunt aura and proximity, so they focus on him. However, the aggro cap kicks in and only 17 can maintain interest in the Tank. The other 13 are still aggroed and are still aware of the rest of you. The will individually switch focus to someone else on the team based on line of sight. This is why old style herding Tanks tend to get their team mates killed a lot.

If you see a Tank doing this, ie trying to aggro more than 1.5 enemy groups, and you want to stay alive, then the best thing you can do is stay around a corner. Stay at range and do not approach the corner to get in line of sight of the occupied room. As long as there is enough meleers up front with the Tank and his herd, the additional aggro'ed enemies ought to be distributed to them.

Occasionally, a herded enemy may be fickle and switch target to you. That's probably just luck. That is, there was a streak of misses by the taunt aura, gauntlet and assorted attacks, and the initial taunt decayed to the point that you were even threat level and you were in line of sight.

Edit:
Note, the above applies for regular enemies. If you're talking about an ambush, then that's another story. They work differently. Some ambushes are specifically targeted on a team mate. The circumstances vary, maybe because it was you who clicked the glowie or you got the last hit in on the goons guarding the hostage, etc. Anyway, those ambushers are focused on you specifically. They know where you are regardless of stealth, invis, stalker Hide. They'll follow you up and down elevators. If you're on an outside map, they'll track you no matter where you go or fly.

Mmm...

Love the corrections :<)

While the game has a lot of advertisements such as we don't do this or not, the game allso fails to say a lot of things, leaving it to the player to find out on their own. Is this practice, good, bad or indifferent is upto each player.

While I will confess in some instances to some exageration or poetic license in the description to over-plused perception by certain mobs such as Nemesis Sharpshooters and Rikti Drones, yet their exagerated perception is of an arbitrary value...Essentially there is nothing you can do about it, it's simply rigged.

I see comments about the no healing aggroe, I hear you, my experience does not consistently support you. The few times, I play my empath, I do single heals on the main DPS, I almost never get any aggroe. I pbaoe a heal, and I get ringed like a bell, despite the group is below 16 and we have a tanker. What is the reason, this is occurring? Who cares! its happening. The same happens with buffing, especially if they are as a result of a debuff; sure not supposed to draw aggroe, thats what the devs said, yet the unpleasant surprise of aggroe happens.

While much of what I said, does go against the CoH Dogma, I would suggest you try the suggestions, and later if you would please post if the suggestions had a beneficial effect or not in reducing your mortality rate.

Stormy