What happened to the Market?

seebs · 10-28-2010 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideon

Don't forget "flippers", people who buy stuff cheap and then resell it at absurd prices which will still sell to the "need it now" crowd. o_O When the markets merged, obviously the flippers increased, as they are all sharing the same resources now instead of just red and blue.

Flippers tend to stabilize prices. (It's counter-intuitive, but if you track out the actual effects in markets, it's what happens.)

Quote:

Also email yourself salvage and recipes from other characters on the same server.

Or any other server.

Feycat · 10-28-2010 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideon

Generally speaking, if you need salvage, but don't want to pay through the nose for it, use AE, rack up some tickets, and random roll common salvage, or buy uncommons and rares as you need them. Also email yourself salvage and recipes from other characters on the same server.

This is one of my favorite things right now, with the supply being so low and prices being so high. I roll one of my boss farm maps (no exploit, just a map full of bosses with no minions) clear it a couple times, get all the salvage I need and roll the extra into recipes. AE makes it possible to bypass the market entirely, if that's what you want to do.

Red Valkyrja · 10-28-2010 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix

People are definitely overspending.

That pretty much sums up the market before and after the merge.

When I see salvage where there is 10k in stock, yet people are still paying 1k, 5k, 10k inf or more, my first thought is 'idiots'. Impatient people pay inflated prices.

You want to buy it for less, then bid less. I can't count how many times I've bought items going for 1mil for less than 1k inf.

Angel Red
"We're heroes. Fighting injustice is the thing we do." ~Rebel Scum

seebs · 10-28-2010 11:17 AM

I wrote a little utility for my laptop to take sale prices and WW fees and tell me what I listed something at, compared to what it sold for. People are jumping ahead by immense amounts. I had something listed for about 14M, it sold for 17M.

UberGuy · 10-28-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Zep_

I too recently returned from a bit of a COH vacation. I welcomed the changed to the market, or so I thought. I find it harder to find and get IO's as well. I havnt shopped for my 50's as yet.

Supply is greatest for the recipes that level 50s can produce. This includes not only level 50 recipes, but the maximum level for other desirable sets that don't extend all the way to 50. Examples are level 40 for Miracles and Touch of Death, and level 35 for Kinetic Combat.

However, there is a a somewhat odd tendency of people to pay the most for level 50 recipes. Whether this is because they value the maximum enhancement benefit (and don't care about how set bonuses act when exemplared), or because they don't care to riffle through all the recipe levels looking for a better deal, the concentration of supply at 50 (or other caps) seems to have concentrated demand there as well.*

So be aware, while you'll probably find a lot of what you want, you may have to pay more for it if you actually buy at the maximum level.

* There are exceptions, where people also pay a premium for the very minimum level of items that are nice to have at low levels. Examples include KB protection IOs, Miracle and Nimuna uniques, Luck of the Gambler: +Recharge and Performance Shifter procs. Supply tends to exist at the minimum level presumably because people can use merits to produce these items at that specific level, and the lowest level possible gives the longest benefit (if you're leveling up with it) or the best exemplar benefit (for global effects like the LotG or KB protection IOs).

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

UberGuy · 10-28-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ideon

Don't forget "flippers", people who buy stuff cheap and then resell it at absurd prices which will still sell to the "need it now" crowd. o_O When the markets merged, obviously the flippers increased, as they are all sharing the same resources now instead of just red and blue.

The flippers lost market share after the merge. If they had a niche to themselves on one side, they probably ended up in competition with another flipper after the merge.

The new market is more price stable, especially if you were a villain. Aggregate supply rates are higher, which tends to reduce price instability, and price instability is a flipper's friend.

The point is, you seem to be saying that the merged market increased the influence flippers have on prices, and the opposite is true.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Neogumbercules · 10-28-2010 03:15 PM

Quote:

When I see salvage where there is 10k in stock, yet people are still paying 1k, 5k, 10k inf or more, my first thought is 'idiots'. Impatient people pay inflated prices.

Are they idiots though? I see this a lot in the market forums to varying degrees of animosity. Are these people really just ignorant/impatient and paying extraordinary amounts, or is there just something wrong with the rate of income in this game?

Who cares if someone wants to drop 10k on a few pieces of common salvage to craft their enhancement right "nao" when a typical level 50 can earn like 30k influence every time they hit Foot Stomp? When a typical ambush AE map gets you something like a million influence every run and you can repeat it every 3 minutes you might as well pay 10k for a piece of salvage you just wanna get now and be done with it. The seller benefits and the buyer makes back all of his money 100x over in 3 minutes flat. Even if you're not a farmer, any 50 running a regular mission will earn millions of influence between regular income and selling drops just by doing a few missions.

As for the buyer who doesn't have tons of inf to burn, just like Fulmens said, you can sell that item yourself if you want to. There are so many easy ways to make gobs of starting money in this game. Barring all of that, the cheap-o lowbie can still bid 500 and get his item eventually.

I don't think these "buy it nao" people are lazy, ignorant, or impatient. They just don't care about the difference between 500inf and 10,000inf because money falls of them like the wind driven snow.

Schismatrix · 10-28-2010 04:00 PM

i've occasionally killed time bidding on massively overstocked common and uncommon salvage, paying 1,000 inf or more just for the commons, and then vendoring it. Yes, i make back less than 25% of what i spend doing it, but it's interesting to watch what happens to the supply and pricing after a little while.

The odds are some of the inf i spent went to people who actually need it, and if i've got the inf i can do whatever i want with it, not matter how silly.

Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

Red Valkyrja · 10-28-2010 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neogumbercules

Are they idiots though? I see this a lot in the market forums to varying degrees of animosity. Are these people really just ignorant/impatient and paying extraordinary amounts, or is there just something wrong with the rate of income in this game?

Who cares if someone wants to drop 10k on a few pieces of common salvage to craft their enhancement right "nao" when a typical level 50 can earn like 30k influence every time they hit Foot Stomp? When a typical ambush AE map gets you something like a million influence every run and you can repeat it every 3 minutes you might as well pay 10k for a piece of salvage you just wanna get now and be done with it. The seller benefits and the buyer makes back all of his money 100x over in 3 minutes flat. Even if you're not a farmer, any 50 running a regular mission will earn millions of influence between regular income and selling drops just by doing a few missions.

As for the buyer who doesn't have tons of inf to burn, just like Fulmens said, you can sell that item yourself if you want to. There are so many easy ways to make gobs of starting money in this game. Barring all of that, the cheap-o lowbie can still bid 500 and get his item eventually.

I don't think these "buy it nao" people are lazy, ignorant, or impatient. They just don't care about the difference between 500inf and 10,000inf because money falls of them like the wind driven snow.

"Idiot" was a bit harsh on my part, mostly I just shake my head.

Lazy or ignorant, not so much, impatient, yes. I agree with you that there are players to which most amounts of inf are inconsequential.

Angel Red
"We're heroes. Fighting injustice is the thing we do." ~Rebel Scum

StrykerX · 10-28-2010 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja

That pretty much sums up the market before and after the merge.

When I see salvage where there is 10k in stock, yet people are still paying 1k, 5k, 10k inf or more, my first thought is 'idiots'. Impatient people pay inflated prices.

Well to be fair, a level 50 character can earn several thousand inf killing a single normal spawn. If you can earn a thousand inf per second on average when you are out killing mobs, is it really worthwhile to spend 20 seconds bid creeping from 200 inf to 10k inf on a piece of common salvage instead of just bidding a few thousand and getting it immediately? 10-20k inf is a sizable chunk for a low level character, but it's literally 10 seconds work for a lot of 50s. I'm not even talking about farmers... even average low-end builds can usually earn more inf per second than they'd save by bid creeping (on commons at least). And since we can mail enhancements, most people who have 50s are going to do a lot of their buying on those characters, even if the item is for an alt.

Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

ShaneBattle · 10-28-2010 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja

"Idiot" was a bit harsh on my part, mostly I just shake my head.

Lazy or ignorant, not so much, impatient, yes. I agree with you that there are players to which most amounts of inf are inconsequential.

I tend to think the opposite of you. I shake my head every time I see that there are only 50 of a common salvage on the market, but they are STILL selling for no more than 100 influence. This actually creates a perpetual problem, it's not worth the effort for people to put more on the market, but nobody is willing to buy them if you put them up for enough to make them worth the effort.

As a result, a few pieces of common salvage are annoyingly rare.

I'd rather see 10000 up there for 50K than 40 for hundreds. Because on occasion, especially at off hours, I've seen those 40 dip to 0.

seebs · 10-28-2010 07:27 PM

I usually bid 1234, 12345, 123456, and 1234567. I don't spend a lot of time creeping between them usually.

Shred_Monkey · 10-29-2010 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neogumbercules

Are they idiots though? I see this a lot in the market forums to varying degrees of animosity. Are these people really just ignorant/impatient and paying extraordinary amounts, or is there just something wrong with the rate of income in this game?

Who cares if someone wants to drop 10k on a few pieces of common salvage to craft their enhancement right "nao" when a typical level 50 can earn like 30k influence every time they hit Foot Stomp? When a typical ambush AE map gets you something like a million influence every run and you can repeat it every 3 minutes you might as well pay 10k for a piece of salvage you just wanna get now and be done with it. The seller benefits and the buyer makes back all of his money 100x over in 3 minutes flat. Even if you're not a farmer, any 50 running a regular mission will earn millions of influence between regular income and selling drops just by doing a few missions.

As for the buyer who doesn't have tons of inf to burn, just like Fulmens said, you can sell that item yourself if you want to. There are so many easy ways to make gobs of starting money in this game. Barring all of that, the cheap-o lowbie can still bid 500 and get his item eventually.

I don't think these "buy it nao" people are lazy, ignorant, or impatient. They just don't care about the difference between 500inf and 10,000inf because money falls of them like the wind driven snow.

This is exactly true. Talking about the prices of salvage that sells for under 50K is like complaining that the candy bar at the gas station cashier costs 3 cents more then the vending machine down the street.... it's 3 cents... I'll get over it.

I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.

FourSpeed · 10-29-2010 11:26 AM

Simply put, it all comes down to perspective.

To a low level character selling TO drops for 30 or 40 inf a pop, 100K seems
like a crazy-high amount.

For the guy crafting & selling purples (where even the crafting cost alone is 600K),
100K is loose pocket change, especially when the expected profit is ~20-50M or more.

While "idiocy" is certainly possible, I'd say that scale/perspective is a far liklier
rationale...

Regards,
4

I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

GavinRuneblade · 10-30-2010 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourSpeed

Simply put, it all comes down to perspective.

To a low level character selling TO drops for 30 or 40 inf a pop, 100K seems
like a crazy-high amount.

For the guy crafting & selling purples (where even the crafting cost alone is 600K),
100K is loose pocket change, especially when the expected profit is ~20-50M or more.

While "idiocy" is certainly possible, I'd say that scale/perspective is a far liklier
rationale...

Regards,
4

I can't speak for anyone else. In my case it is truly idiocy. I like to tell myself that it is idiocy in the case of the rest of the playerbase as well so I don't feel so bad about it.

"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

StrykerX · 10-31-2010 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade

I can't speak for anyone else. In my case it is truly idiocy. I like to tell myself that it is idiocy in the case of the rest of the playerbase as well so I don't feel so bad about it.

Well, look at it this way... an average level 50 character with a decent solo build (not a farmer, just a reasonably slotted character that isn't focused on group support) can average around 500 inf per second running missions. An optimized soloist can earn three or four times that. So if bidding low takes an extra 30 seconds on the market, you just cost yourself 15-60k inf or so.

Now obviously most non-farmers don't actually focus on spending every possible second killing things, but the point is that if you could have gone out and mowed down a few level 50 spawns in the extra time it takes you to fill a low bid instead of a buy it now price (like a second trip to the market to pick up the salvage once it fills) you need to save more inf than those spawns would have provided for it to actually be profitable.

(That said, I do generally refuse to pay stupidly high prices for salvage just on general principles, but I'll drop a few thousand to get it right away rather than bidding 200 and having to go back and pick it up later because the convenience is worth the 10 seconds or so it takes me to make the inf back.

)

Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name

[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636

eryq2 · 10-31-2010 10:13 AM

Too many people playing the markets and not the game, imo. Looking to flip, find niches or whatever they do to make a buck. Recipes don't drop if stuff isn't being killed. Go to any zone and youll see more people sitting in WW or the AE buildings than running missions.

I've found to get anything i want is to get a 2nd account, PL to 50 (where the recipes actually exist) and then IO toons.

Jetpack · 10-31-2010 10:14 AM

Well, you can't really see those people running missions. They are, well, in a mission, after all.

UberGuy · 10-31-2010 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eryq2

Too many people playing the markets and not the game, imo. Looking to flip, find niches or whatever they do to make a buck. Recipes don't drop if stuff isn't being killed. Go to any zone and youll see more people sitting in WW or the AE buildings than running missions.

Did you think about what you were going to write before you posted that? Really?

Ignoring the gaping logical flaw in what you said there, let's talk about how many people are actually in the markets.

At the most, and in the most populated "transit" zones, I rarely see more than a handful of characters in the markets, even at prime time. How many people are you seeing?

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

newchemicals · 10-31-2010 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberGuy

Did you think about what you were going to write before you posted that? Really?

Ignoring the gaping logical flaw in what you said there, let's talk about how many people are actually in the markets.

At the most, and in the most populated "transit" zones, I rarely see more than a handful of characters in the markets, even at prime time. How many people are you seeing?

Actually, that starts adding up to a decent number when you consider how many zones have WW/BM and when you add in the fact there are several servers.

If I was going to do martket stuff, now that items can be xfered easily across servers and sides, I would stick my "market pvp alt" on an unpopulated server and hide at a WW/BM that no one goes to.

H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD

UberGuy · 10-31-2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newchemicals

Actually, that starts adding up to a decent number when you consider how many zones have WW/BM and when you add in the fact there are several servers.

Compared to the number of people playing? No, it doesn't.

There are 9 zones with market locations. Granting a ridiculously generous 10 people per location per server, that's 1350 players.

There are something in the vicinity of 100,000 subscribers. Assuming just 10% of them are online at a time, that's still somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 players online at a time.

That'd be 7.4% of all players. If there were 10 players in every market on every server, which doesn't line up with any experience of mine. Markets like and King's Row, Mercy Island, Port Oaks usually have no one in them, and even at peak log-in times I usually only see one or two people at most.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

seebs · 10-31-2010 12:51 PM

There's also the question of what those people in the markets are doing. I probably spend more time shopping for enhancements/recipes/salvage than I do trying to make money on the markets.

UberGuy · 10-31-2010 12:52 PM

I usually end up chatting with people when I stopped off to dump heaping piles of salvage there. I often take that opportunity to go get a sandwich or make a pit stop, meaning I'm AFK there.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Nethergoat · 10-31-2010 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newchemicals

Actually, that starts adding up to a decent number when you consider how many zones have WW/BM and when you add in the fact there are several servers.

have you considered a career in stand up?

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

eryq2 · 10-31-2010 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberGuy

Did you think about what you were going to write before you posted that? Really?

Ignoring the gaping logical flaw in what you said there, let's talk about how many people are actually in the markets.

At the most, and in the most populated "transit" zones, I rarely see more than a handful of characters in the markets, even at prime time. How many people are you seeing?

Yes, i did. The market people act like stuff doesn't exist or happen. There's normally a good handful of people in WW in Atlas and Talos. Also, in Cap. And that's just when i'm actually on or near those locales.

The real reason there's nothing in WW at any level other than 50 is the same reason that purples and salvage have continued to go up. Supply and demand is true, but the cause is AE. Nothing drops there. Purples ONLY drop in regular missions. Salvage ONLY drops in regualr missions. When people are in AE farming/pling, then no recipes and salvage are dropping. (other than level 50 or the max level that the 50s are getting) I know, because i do it alot, too. I get WAY more recipes that way than farming missions because the drop rate sucks, imo. I get more and more temp powers every time i run a farm and less normal recipes. I can kill 1000's of baddies and get a handful of normal recipes, not including purples. Do the same in AE, and get 1000's of recipes. But not purples and salvage. Therefore making the few purples that people actually get cost way too much.

Then add all the people that play with the market and not just use it. All the buying up all the salvage just to see if they can warp WW and the prices. And i'm sure it's being done with recipes, too. If people just bought what they wanted and sold what they didn't, it'd make WW much more enjoyable for most of the people.