There is a difference between hope and expectations.
Hope for good things, but expect nothing.
It's the difference between faith and reality
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
While understandable, it's very sad that this is the general consensus: An utter loss of all faith in the development community in the base building forum that even extends to these players views of the game itself.
I will try to keep hope that something will come for bases some day.
That perhaps something for them may even come out from the dark hush of issue 20.
But in the end, I must admit my own spirit feels dampened too by the sobering, simple facts that beyond the addition of the oroboros pillars, grandville beacon, and change to the beaker racks, and SG emblem visbility, bases have not seen any item additions to it in nearly 13 issues now...
good luck and godspeed to this committee, in the end, you may be our last hope.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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At least these guys are trying to do something about it. Im more of a complainer so I rather do that then try to form a committee. 
I would have hope if we actually heard that they were going to do something with bases in i20.
That would require them actually talking to us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uZomZ3Aen0
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Alrighty then lets just do that. Lets form a committee. Lets get all hyped up and networked together. Lets get excited and enthusiastic. lets tour and feed off of each others ideas. |
Originally Posted by Moon_Freeze
At least these guys are trying to do something about it. Im more of a complainer so I rather do that then try to form a committee.
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When it all comes to pass and there are no base updates and its all swept under the rug, what is going to happen to the committee then? Its going to turn on itself and tear itself to shreds out of disappointment and anger. then the forums are going to light up with people going back and forth at each other.
Joy.
Remember this?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=213333
Certain restrictions in base building are being adjusted and/or removed so with that comes some freedom and more options, from an editor perspective, the degree of control and fine-tuning you have in placing items. So thats one thing. Ive seen a lot of creativity with the way players use one object (or hundreds of them) to act as another so my other plan is to provide more base objects, more textures, and more themed sets. Suggestions?
That was from War Witch. It was about improvements to the base editor. It was also a very long time ago. That information is past its expiration date so it counts for "?"
I would have been sold on it had it not been for this one word. "Suggestions"
No.
Kat has compiled a huge list of every kind of base love. You would have to either be blind or ignoring it to have missed that. I'm going with ignoring. I have bet on the other horse enough times to know that horse doesn't win.
Have we heard anything since then regarding bases?
Anyone else getting a "Someone in power is holding a grudge against base editors" vibe, or is it just me?
Just me? <you wish>
Actions speak louder than words, and for that matter so do in-actions. The silence...truly is deafening.
Lets not form -anything- until we hear that there is going to be something worth forming over.
Something good something updated and something the devs would take interest in.
I don't want to see a bunch of people -especially if they are potential base editors- get their hopes up just to get a big fat let down.
What a way to go.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
The problem with that, Hassenpheffer is that by giving up and remaining quiet until something comes, the devs may continue to overlook bases as "not worth the time", and it becomes a self-destructive cycle.
My suggestion to the committee, once it's formed, is to scour across the City of Community playerbase and rally the troops, basically, we don't need to petition, but we need to let the Devs know that base building CAN be a profitable investment.
now I'm not saying to go all crazy, but still, just something, so that maybe if we all shout out as one, the Olympians might hear us.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Very well. I am closing in on the completion of the Infinity Labyrinth. |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
The problem with that, Hassenpheffer is that by giving up and remaining quiet until something comes, the devs may continue to overlook bases as "not worth the time", and it becomes a self-destructive cycle.
My suggestion to the committee, once it's formed, is to scour across the City of Community playerbase and rally the troops, basically, we don't need to petition, but we need to let the Devs know that base building CAN be a profitable investment. now I'm not saying to go all crazy, but still, just something, so that maybe if we all shout out as one, the Olympians might hear us. |
Maybe it can be ready for Halloween?
Maybe we can ....organize an event?
...
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Occam's Razor. Which is more likely:|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Anyone else getting a "Someone in power is holding a grudge against base editors" vibe, or is it just me?
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1. Bases are getting ignored because senior members of the dev team hate them.
2. Bases are getting ignored because improvements to them would require a lot of effort and only benefit a small portion of the player population.
As for Hope...they laid off Sunstorm...you know, the guy who was in-charge of bases...so much for hope...
...the only hope I see for Bases is Individual Player Housing. If they make it so everyone can get a starter appartment and kit it out with INF (not Prestige), THAT and THAT ALONE could cause a demand for improvements in the bases, items available and editing. The ebil marketteers keep calling for an INF sink. Individual player housing that is purchased with and can be improved with INF spending, could be a MASSIVE INF SINK, that would create a call for more purchaseable stuff and improvements to editing. If everyone, not just a SG/VG's designated designer, had access to editing for their housing, excitement would build and demand would begin to rise.
Appartments: ground floor, mid-floors, upper floors, penthouses etc.
Locations: Kings Row, Steel Canyon, Founders Falls, Peregrine Island etc.
Items: Windows(with a view to your current location and floor level), Skylights, rooftop Jacuzzis, Lighted Trophy Cases for all your Clues, Lava Lamps, Better Wall Paintings (Patrick Nagles ftw) etc.
This would save Bases and cool the economy at the same time.
"Character is what you are in the dark"-John Warfin
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Thanks I was waiting for that.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Occam's Razor. Which is more likely:
1. Bases are getting ignored because senior members of the dev team hate them. 2. Bases are getting ignored because improvements to them would require a lot of effort and only benefit a small portion of the player population. |
I'll choose #2 please.
That's something that a base committee could actually disprove.
Edit: is there a new hierarchy or any word of replacements?
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Now I think you are on to something. Without a "business" case we become a "charity" case... and charity is doled out with resourses left over after "real" needs have been met. And we see the result... good intentions but... nada. Right now the only thing we have going for us is a sense among the devs that bases were designed poorly and they have an obligation to "one day" do something about it. That hasn't been enough.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
But we need to let the Devs know that base building CAN be a profitable investment.
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The mindset is: On one side, there is a need for a back end fix to the base editor (think about how much that energizes a Code Team... my guess is it doesn't... and that sentiment is most probably passed along) before anything can be done to benefit a minority of players who are fortunate enough to be basebuilders. On the other side is the need to design and code the latest sexy universal game feature that will knock the socks off the entire player community. Guess who "wins" that contest every time?
It gets worse (if your are looking at it from the perspective of the need for new development). The decorative basebuilders continue to "shock and awe" the devs with their ablity to turn "lemons" into "lemonade". Today's palace looks even better than yesterday's (so let's forget that the roof leaks, it's centuries behind the times in modern conveniences, and that the needs of the many are ignored for the sake of "creativity" of the few). Why new development? The solution is... committee sponored and dev sanctioned contests? Oh brother.
So what is the business case for bases? I don't have all the answers. One possibly (good or bad) is microtransactions. Make the elite basebuilder pay real money for more tools to build bases. There is, however, another way. That is to "sell" the univeral potential of bases as having real value to the entire player community. Do that and you have a chance of competing for scare development resources. Otherwise, we should prepare to accept whatever "endowment for the arts" we receive whenever it comes along.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Ding Ding Ding! we have a winner... |
Originally Posted by redtornado
...the only hope I see for Bases is Individual Player Housing.
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As it stands now, you have to get a bunch of people together to form a SG before you can even think about building a base, and if you are a part of an established base, there is very little incentive to form your own SG to actually build your own base.
seriously, I have all sorts of ideas, but I wont be seeing most of them come to frutiton becasue of the lack of prestige needed.
by opening it up to everyone, it will add value to the entire game.
From my recent interactions with players and developers this is what I see.
We have alot of the devs concerned that one of their most dedicated player bases (if you think playing with the same toy for 4 years with nothing new to add to it and not throwing it down and finding a new toy isnt dedication then nothing is) becoming more and more upset. Base editing, especially stacking, takes hours upon hours to get done. And not all in the same day. Just from a business stand point of a game that makes money off of your time, its important to keep that community happy.
Has that happened. No. Has everything that has been said been done. No. Have people that were in charge of the department dedicated to our bases been let go. Yes.
I see the same things you do but I guess in a different light. Do you have the right to feel the way you do? Absolutely.
And I am not saying that Turbo, Sidhe and I have messiah like patience. We just havent lost our patience with base editing. Thats why we are forming the committee. We cant program everything for the devs and add it. There will be no immediate gratification with items or the editor. That will come from the contests 
Personally I lost my patience with PvP, thats what drew me to the base in the first place. We all have things in this game that we are disappointed with. If we didnt then the game would be perfect and threads like this would not exist. Also in that perfect world I would have 1 billion dollars and live on the moon.
But I truly think that the lack of change with bases is coming from a fear to mess up what the players have discovered. If they were to change one thing and mess up stacking, and not be able to fix or replace it with a better way of doing things, then there would be much more anger than there is now. We want to be very careful with this process and thats why we feel that player representation is necessary beyond these boards. And that is where we come in.
You are all going to see this get more official very soon. And when the ball starts rolling, we wont stop. If one of us needs to stop, then another player will take its place. This is going to be a well oiled machine and it will get results. All we ask is that you have patience with us while we are getting up and running.
And on a different note, MrHassenpheffer, I will talk to the others and see if we cant get something going for that. Little short notice, and we only just finished putting up the dry wall in the Base Committee office (figuratively of course) but if we can do it we will. I would love to come check it out sometime soon, just gotta get through to my daughters bday and then things will calm down in RL. I just dont want to throw something together, half planned and it not be what it truly should be.
Once again thanks for everyones patience and support, and I will have updates soon.
United Powers of Paragon
"Hope is the last thing a person does before giving up."
-Henry Rollins
www.theirongategallery.com/ (They will do custom costumes if you ask really really nice)
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I like this idea too. You could use the existing editor, just on a smaller scale at a discount (because bases are set up for SGs the focus should still be SG bases.) But an individual should have an opportunity to use this system. Maybe instead of prestige you could have the option to use influence with a small scale plot. Maybe |
Originally Posted by nytflyr
Ding Ding Ding! we have a winner...
As it stands now, you have to get a bunch of people together to form a SG before you can even think about building a base, and if you are a part of an established base, there is very little incentive to form your own SG to actually build your own base. seriously, I have all sorts of ideas, but I wont be seeing most of them come to frutiton becasue of the lack of prestige needed. by opening it up to everyone, it will add value to the entire game. |
But definitely something worth exploring, I know its been on peeoples minds even before bases were added.
United Powers of Paragon
"Hope is the last thing a person does before giving up."
-Henry Rollins
www.theirongategallery.com/ (They will do custom costumes if you ask really really nice)
Something no one ever mentions is the fact that MMO development is worked on 6 months to several years into the future.
Going Rogue isn't something they started on 6 months ago and then they decided to release it last month. The invention system didn't happen in just a year. These things took years to come to fruition.
If a Dev said two years ago that bases would be getting some love, we would probably just be seeing it today depending on what technical hurdles had to be overcome.
Changing the base editor to be capable of three axis of placement isn't something that is going to get banged out in a week. Neither is adding a slew of new artwork or fixing existing artwork for bases.
I would love to see bases get some love too. But it is just now getting close to being time for some of the base the stuff we asked for several years back to finally be ready for release assuming that they have had time to work on it with GR just coming out.
We are way too used to being a "Gotta have it nao!!!" society.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.
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Personally I don't see Player housing as being an effective Inf Sink. In general there are two types of Inf sinks in games. The first are the small everyday fees that everybody pays and thus suck small amounts of cash from everybody. In CoX this role is filled primarily by the market fees (and to a lesser extend by SO vendors and crafting fees). The second is the really expensive "prestige" item that is only available to a small portion of the population and is mostly used for bragging rights.|
Originally Posted by redtornado
...the only hope I see for Bases is Individual Player Housing. If they make it so everyone can get a starter appartment and kit it out with INF (not Prestige), THAT and THAT ALONE could cause a demand for improvements in the bases, items available and editing. The ebil marketteers keep calling for an INF sink. Individual player housing that is purchased with and can be improved with INF spending, could be a MASSIVE INF SINK, that would create a call for more purchaseable stuff and improvements to editing. If everyone, not just a SG/VG's designated designer, had access to editing for their housing, excitement would build and demand would begin to rise.
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Making player housing a "prestige" inf sink strikes me as way to much development effort for something only a small portion of the population would use and if you make it accessible to everyone it loses most of the benefit as an Inf sink. What price level would you select? To make a decent inf sink you'd probably need the total cost to be in the 100 million range (or even more) but to people who don't play their 50s or marketeer a lot that price is going to be very steep.
The other issue is that player housing is not a great prestige item anyway, it's something you show off to friends but not visible to the player who sees you in the street. I don't think that there is enough overlap between "people with lots of spare inf" and "people who want to be an interior designer" for it to be effective as an inf sink.
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He's back to having a red name now, and I could swear I've seen his name on the "now logged in" mess. Although that might have been OCR checking messages, too.|
Originally Posted by redtornado
they laid off Sunstorm...you know, the guy who was in-charge of bases...so much for hope...
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| ...the only hope I see for Bases is Individual Player Housing. If they make it so everyone can get a starter appartment and kit it out with INF (not Prestige), |
Prophecy & Dreams | Prophecy & Dreams Discussion
Nerd Flirting | More Nerd Flirting | Nerds Talking About Flirting
Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero
Quite a few in the base-building community convert hundreds of millions of inf into prestige, I'd consider that an inf sink.
More importantly, base-building is a time sink for players which I think is more in line with what the devs gear towards, than taking inf off the table. It's something to do during cool-down times, in between leveling.
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I agree with this. |
Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
Quite a few in the base-building community convert hundreds of millions of inf into prestige, I'd consider that an inf sink.
More importantly, base-building is a time sink for players which I think is more in line with what the devs gear towards, than taking inf off the table. It's something to do during cool-down times, in between leveling. |
On the other hand, at least there are countless threads on how to improve bases and lists upon lists upon lists. I have no doubt that this committee will use that as a guideline. The only question is weather anything comes of it.
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Base contests? Seriously? Is that part of your pitch to the devs? Our sg base is great, it may be contest worthy but who cares? Base contests to get the devs interested in bases is a dumb idea. A contest serves no real purpose other than showcasing the amazing things we can do with a crappy system. It does not/will not move the ball forward in a quest to get changes made. Sure it may draw attention from the devs, who will applaud the winners, but how does that transfer into action? It doesn't. They already know who we are as a base building community and the level of our frustration. |
Originally Posted by Dead_West
From my recent interactions with players and developers this is what I see.
We have alot of the devs concerned that one of their most dedicated player bases (if you think playing with the same toy for 4 years with nothing new to add to it and not throwing it down and finding a new toy isnt dedication then nothing is) becoming more and more upset. Base editing, especially stacking, takes hours upon hours to get done. And not all in the same day. Just from a business stand point of a game that makes money off of your time, its important to keep that community happy. Has that happened. No. Has everything that has been said been done. No. Have people that were in charge of the department dedicated to our bases been let go. Yes. I see the same things you do but I guess in a different light. Do you have the right to feel the way you do? Absolutely. And I am not saying that Turbo, Sidhe and I have messiah like patience. We just havent lost our patience with base editing. Thats why we are forming the committee. We cant program everything for the devs and add it. There will be no immediate gratification with items or the editor. That will come from the contests Personally I lost my patience with PvP, thats what drew me to the base in the first place. We all have things in this game that we are disappointed with. If we didnt then the game would be perfect and threads like this would not exist. Also in that perfect world I would have 1 billion dollars and live on the moon. But I truly think that the lack of change with bases is coming from a fear to mess up what the players have discovered. If they were to change one thing and mess up stacking, and not be able to fix or replace it with a better way of doing things, then there would be much more anger than there is now. We want to be very careful with this process and thats why we feel that player representation is necessary beyond these boards. And that is where we come in. You are all going to see this get more official very soon. And when the ball starts rolling, we wont stop. If one of us needs to stop, then another player will take its place. This is going to be a well oiled machine and it will get results. All we ask is that you have patience with us while we are getting up and running. And on a different note, MrHassenpheffer, I will talk to the others and see if we cant get something going for that. Little short notice, and we only just finished putting up the dry wall in the Base Committee office (figuratively of course) but if we can do it we will. I would love to come check it out sometime soon, just gotta get through to my daughters bday and then things will calm down in RL. I just dont want to throw something together, half planned and it not be what it truly should be. Once again thanks for everyones patience and support, and I will have updates soon. |
If you want to do something constructive with your chat with devs then make the business case that was mentioned earlier or find a way that makes base building tie into the projects they are constantly working on. If you can get them to envision a positive cash flow with bases or have them envision it intertwined with their pet-projects things will change.
Microtransactions
This was mentioned earlier. While I resist asking the devs to charge us more $$$ for base upgrades, I can see this being a foot in the door. They created a booster pack out of nothing but emotes, why not an occasional booster of base items? You might say the Party Pack was designed for everyone while a potential base items booster would not. But I suggest that only a certain group bought the Party Pack ---- those that have the most serious fixation on emotes, which most of us do not share that affliction. Therefore, I see no difference between the two.
Charging us $7 or so and getting a Magic themed group of base items, then a Tech, Science, Mutant, Natural themes, etc. I think that would sell to almost all of us serious base builders and if they make them considered "personal items" in-game then all members of the sg could potentially be buyers, since all sg members can add personal items. And then they could repeat the entire booster series with different items/upgrades the next year.
Game Tie-In
It seems pretty obvious to me that the devs are a little frustrated with the now neutered AE. They clearly seem to trying to find ways to encourage us to invest our time in it. Why not make our bases available as a map in AE? If that was to get their attention then I could foresee potential base love to get the base editor more compatible with AE.
Base Raids
Obviously, player base raids have been completely nixed by the devs, or at least appears that way. But my idea is different and I believe I had posted this before. Why not have a new option for sg leaders? A on/off switch more or less to allow random enemy groups to attack your sg base. Either scheduled or at random times with no permanent damage to your base, (like totally repaired within 15 mins of the end of the raid). They already have triggered invasions of random zones, what if your sg could randomly trigger a base raid? A sg alert could be sent to your sg and possibly your coalitions warning of the raid allowing you to respond. And what if you could add your custom AE enemy groups to the random raiders group?
Admittedly, this idea is less of an incentive for the devs and more or less just generates interest in being in sg's and coalitions. But, pvp is still one of their pet projects. If things like this generate interest in our long lost player base raids, then base raids may come back and that does generate interest in pvp.Incoming cash, pvp and AE are interests of the devs and efforts to sway them are going to be more effective by finding a way to bridge the gap between our desires and the elements they are interested in. Anyway, it's more or less only my opinion.
And since no one else posed the question I may as well. We want to know if we are justified in getting our hopes up. To what extent is your Dev contact interested in what you proposed? What exactly did they commit to? If it is no more than the same old responses then your work however well intentioned is doomed. I'll just leap right over the "hope" step at that point.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Base contests? Seriously? Is that part of your pitch to the devs? Our sg base is great, it may be contest worthy but who cares? Base contests to get the devs interested in bases is a dumb idea. A contest serves no real purpose other than showcasing the amazing things we can do with a crappy system. It does not/will not move the ball forward in a quest to get changes made. Sure it may draw attention from the devs, who will applaud the winners, but how does that transfer into action? It doesn't. They already know who we are as a base building community and the level of our frustration.
If you want to do something constructive with your chat with devs then make the business case that was mentioned earlier or find a way that makes base building tie into the projects they are constantly working on. If you can get them to envision a positive cash flow with bases or have them envision it intertwined with their pet-projects things will change. Microtransactions Charging us $7 or so and getting a Magic themed group of base items, then a Tech, Science, Mutant, Natural themes, etc. I think that would sell to almost all of us serious base builders and if they make them considered "personal items" in-game then all members of the sg could potentially be buyers, since all sg members can add personal items. And then they could repeat the entire booster series with different items/upgrades the next year. Game Tie-In Base Raids Admittedly, this idea is less of an incentive for the devs and more or less just generates interest in being in sg's and coalitions. But, pvp is still one of their pet projects. If things like this generate interest in our long lost player base raids, then base raids may come back and that does generate interest in pvp.Incoming cash, pvp and AE are interests of the devs and efforts to sway them are going to be more effective by finding a way to bridge the gap between our desires and the elements they are interested in. Anyway, it's more or less only my opinion. And since no one else posed the question I may as well. We want to know if we are justified in getting our hopes up. To what extent is your Dev contact interested in what you proposed? What exactly did they commit to? If it is no more than the same old responses then your work however well intentioned is doomed. I'll just leap right over the "hope" step at that point. |
Now this is something I could back. I really like that base raid idea but more so along the lines of a between this time and this time your base could be raided at random.. If you successfully defend it then everyone in your sg at the time gets the temp power.
We are in constant communication with mods and devs at this point. They are ensuring that this is more of an organized committee rather than a loose group of players. Basically meaning they too want this to be official. The contests are honestly something we want to do so that we can immediately start giving back to the community, even if its not actual base items and fixes, we can at least give something. However, the contests are not the main "pitch."
In the past the devs were trying to listen to everyones thought and opinions on bases. And when a crowd is shouting different things you cant understand most of them. We have already compiled lists of concerns, ones mentioned here and ones from the great lists that are already on the forums. We are going to prioritize these wishes and complaints, find out from the devs what is a quick fix all the way to nigh impossible. I am sure that down the road these things will start being added, but until then we will at least have constant, direct communication that is not so easy to "ignore."
No one has to have hope or even trust that we will do things at all, but those of you who do will not be disappointed.
United Powers of Paragon
"Hope is the last thing a person does before giving up."
-Henry Rollins
www.theirongategallery.com/ (They will do custom costumes if you ask really really nice)
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Well this is certainly a breakthrough for me: you now have my full faith and trust, and if you need, my help for what I can do. (Like if you guys ever need a sushi bar to chat in, my base has one)
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Originally Posted by Dead_West
We are in constant communication with mods and devs at this point.
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Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I am boiling at this point over the backroom nature of this whole thing and that a select few players are now setting the official priorities on what happens next with bases.
But I've always said I'd be for anything that produces results. This pretty much tests the limits of that comment.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
That is correct lol
But at least we are not skipping the hope step and going straight to giving up.
United Powers of Paragon
"Hope is the last thing a person does before giving up."
-Henry Rollins
www.theirongategallery.com/ (They will do custom costumes if you ask really really nice)