The Flipper: Hero of the Markets
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-09-25 10:53 in The Market and Inventions
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Awesome idea.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
If I were less lazy I'd organize FLIPPER FRIDAYS, where interested marketeers convene on a randomly determined piece of salvage in a team effort to discover its EQUILIBRIUM PRICE.
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This is the problematic part. You assume non-flippers never creep up their bids. You assume that they say, "Oh, since I'm buying an uncommon salvage, I'll bid 5,000 regardless of what the sales history says or an attempt on my part to find a lower sales price."|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
2) Players use an amount of Inf to bid on items and compete with each other to obtain items.
This amount is unchanged whether flippers exist or not.. |
A flipper already beat them to that lower sales price, cleared the market of all the ones selling at a lower price and now have them listed at a higher price.
That does indeed affect the price.
And yes, players compete against each other for the low priced item... but then so do the flippers, increasing competition.
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Originally Posted by Misaligned
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What I assume is that a player who saves money by bid-creeping will spend the money he saves on another item. Maybe the player will put that money towards a more expensive Pool C recipe. Maybe the player will put that money towards buying more salvage of whatever kind. My point is that the money a player saves on one item at the market will be spent on another item at the market.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
This is the problematic part. You assume non-flippers never creep up their bids. You assume that they say, "Oh, since I'm buying an uncommon salvage, I'll bid 5,000 regardless of what the sales history says or an attempt on my part to find a lower sales price."
A flipper already beat them to that lower sales price, cleared the market of all the ones selling at a lower price and now have them listed at a higher price. That does indeed affect the price. And yes, players compete against each other for the low priced item... but then so do the flippers, increasing competition. |
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I own that shirt IRL.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
This thread is now about pants
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Zombie Man & Chriffer,
That has been my experince as well. When I flip it is mainly for badging purposes, not for inf. I try and make sure that I sell for enough that I cover the cost of the item and the transaction fees.
The actual price I pay and the price I sell at are immaterial to me. I don't buy during the week cheap and then list for the weekend. I buy at whatever I feel will undercut the low bidders and the sell for whatever will undercut the the current high sellers. I want items to move fast to create as many transactions as possible, not inf. I don't care what it is as long as it moves and creates the transactions.
Sometimes my bids instafill and sometimes I have to run a mission or two. But whatever stack has sold, I bid for another stack at whatever the current price I think I can get it at. List immediately at whatever point I am pretty sure will sell quickly.
As volatile as it might seem, I have yet to lose money on this kind of deal and I flip Circuit Boards, Brass, NMI, Scientific Theory, etc. Made like 10 miilion or so on about 500 transactions.
Eventually all profits from flipping & crafting are spent in the market. I keep a running balance of about two billion spread over all my toons. Anything over that is spent on shineys, given away or occasionally converted to prestige.
PS. 500 hundred in a weekend on a single toon is dead easy just checking in occasionally. If I did nothing but flip all weekend I could easily see doing a 1000 transactions. It would be intresting to see if you could actually go from 500 sales badge to 5000 in one weekend but probably too much work to bother with.
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Example fail.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Oh for crying out loud...
Who here has a retirement fund? *Looks at all of the raised hands* You're all flippers. Every last one of you. You're buying something with the sole intention of selling it for more than you paid for it. |
That's not the same as flipping. Unless, of course, someone is buying and selling the same stock OVER AND OVER. Yes, some people do this. But most don't.
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Flipping doesn't have anything to do with "the same item over and over". It's just buying something with intent to resell it at a higher price. Virtually all stock "investment" is pure flipping.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Example fail.
That's not the same as flipping. Unless, of course, someone is buying and selling the same stock OVER AND OVER. Yes, some people do this. But most don't. |
Apparently, people file buying things, using those things to make other thing, and then selling that other thing, as flipping. So yeah, we're all flippers unless we're, like all in a job like TV presentation or something.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
A flipper already beat them to that lower sales price, cleared the market of all the ones selling at a lower price and now have them listed at a higher price.
That does indeed affect the price. And yes, players compete against each other for the low priced item... but then so do the flippers, increasing competition. |
Really. I'd like to see this. Given that hundreds if not thousands of pieces of salvage work their way through the market in a day (when discussing these "flippable" ones) I would genuinely like to see someone buy "all of the ones selling at a lower price".
In fact, Goat attempted this. He didn't flip them, so storage was irrelevant. While he was doing this, I was able to purchase one well below his bidding at the time.
So your statement is a blanket statement, which is false to begin with, and you assume that 1 person can control a particular salvage to the point of being able to buy them all.
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| Wow. One rarely sees this kind of pulled-out-the-rear straw man. Would you mind quoting where I demanded sales be instant please? |
Now get back on topic people!!
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Troll fail|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Example fail.
That's not the same as flipping. Unless, of course, someone is buying and selling the same stock OVER AND OVER. Yes, some people do this. But most don't. |
You buy a stock. You try to sell it for a profit. Quantity is not relevant. But hey, thanks for playing. I was amused for almost a whole second!
Continue.
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LOL|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Apparently, people file buying things, using those things to make other thing, and then selling that other thing, as flipping. So yeah, we're all flippers unless we're, like all in a job like TV presentation or something.
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Talen is on fiyah in this thread.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Nope. If buyers had infinite patience and only bid 1 for everything, sellers |
If every buyer had infinite patience and only ever bid 1 inf on everything, sellers would be forced to eventually acquiesce. But the buyers are human, so that's not going to happen! |
would very soon be vendoring or deleting any drops that weren't useful to
themselves (or SG mates etc.), and buyers would get bupkiss....
As for the rest of this thread - Kudos to the Mighty Goat - you really stirred
up the Moron's Morass with this one...
Oh, and I also bow at the alter of Ron White, The All-Knowing...
Cheers,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Oh. This was a troll thread. I didn't realize that was the intention. My bad. I thought Marketeers laughed at other player's ignorant views after attempting to educate them. I didn't know that had changed to presenting disingenuous, contradicting statements as "facts" and laughing at the ensuing replies.
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Nope. If buyers had infinite patience and only bid 1 for everything, sellers
would very soon be vendoring or deleting any drops that weren't useful to themselves (or SG mates etc.), and buyers would get bupkiss.... As for the rest of this thread - Kudos to the Mighty Goat - you really stirred up the Moron's Morass with this one... Oh, and I also bow at the alter of Ron White, The All-Knowing... Cheers, 4 |
I don't think they're at all disingenuous. They're factual, and highlight something that people seem not to comprehend:
You cannot prevent other people from undercutting you, or "set the price" of an item, or anything like that, in any realistic way. It's too easy for other people to get items and compete with you, or to outbid your lowball bids. There is no circumstance under which, because a flipper has listed things at a high price, this prevents people from buying things which are cheaper than that price.
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I disagree with nothing in the second paragraph.
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Originally Posted by seebs
I don't think they're at all disingenuous. They're factual, and highlight something that people seem not to comprehend:
You cannot prevent other people from undercutting you, or "set the price" of an item, or anything like that, in any realistic way. It's too easy for other people to get items and compete with you, or to outbid your lowball bids. There is no circumstance under which, because a flipper has listed things at a high price, this prevents people from buying things which are cheaper than that price. |
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Your nonsensical commentary hasn't helped the tone any, so climb down off that high horse.|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Oh. This was a troll thread. I didn't realize that was the intention. My bad. I thought Marketeers laughed at other player's ignorant views after attempting to educate them. I didn't know that had changed to presenting disingenuous, contradicting statements as "facts" and laughing at the ensuing replies.
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R/e laughter and tears, struggle as we may against the tide tragedy inevitably segues into farce.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I very much disagree with this. Investing in a stock you hope to get two types of return: dividends and capital gains. I think you mean to equate flipping with investment in gold.|
Originally Posted by seebs
Flipping doesn't have anything to do with "the same item over and over". It's just buying something with intent to resell it at a higher price. Virtually all stock "investment" is pure flipping.
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Flipping salvage in this game is pure capital gains. In a real world tax environment, it really would not be all that efficient.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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LOL - Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Oh. This was a troll thread. I didn't realize that was the intention. My bad. I thought Marketeers laughed at other player's ignorant views after attempting to educate them. I didn't know that had changed to presenting disingenuous, contradicting statements as "facts" and laughing at the ensuing replies.
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At no point or place did I divine the Goat's intent. I am merely commenting
on the result of his post. Whatever the intent, the result is it evoked a full
supply of "pure stupid" in just a few short days...
Personally, I find that highly amusing and worthy of kudos, since, as was
pointed out by someone else early, the OP appeared to have been a
simple, "lighthearted" post...
Who knew how epic it would turn out? Certainly, not I.
GG - Carry On...
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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I apologize if you took my post that way. I was simply quoting your post as another opportunity to attempt to drive home my point, which is "The flipper is the person willing to pay the most" is NOT true when the flipper sells the item. Conversely, the "flipper is the person willing to sell for the least" is also not true when the flipper buys the item. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
LOL - Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?
At no point or place did I divine the Goat's intent. I am merely commenting on the result of his post. Whatever the intent, the result is it evoked a full supply of "pure stupid" in just a few short days... Personally, I find that highly amusing and worthy of kudos, since, as was pointed out by someone else early, the OP appeared to have been a simple, "lighthearted" post... Who knew how epic it would turn out? Certainly, not I. GG - Carry On... |
If the intention of the original poster was to be humorous and NOT be factual then I have no problem with this thread and apparently my humor is satisfied by alternative styles. However, the various people defending those statements as factual should understand that those statements are closer to "exceptions" than "general truths". One person did clearly label them as exceptions and reworded the two original statements in a much more accurate manner.
What I do find humorous is that some of the people who defend the original poster's statements as factual do the same things as those who frequently declare their dislike for flippers. These players take a statement that is true only under specific and narrow circumstances and declare it a "fact".
"Flippers raise prices" is true under a very narrow set of circumstances. It is an exception. Viewed from one point of view only, at one specific point in time, it is true.
"Flippers are willing to sell for the least" is true under a very narrow set of circumstances. It is an exception. Viewed from one point of view only, at one specific point in time, it is true.
Contrast this with statements like:
Flippers cause prices to become more stable. Generally true.
Flippers prevent shortages. Generally true.
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Flipping salvage in this game is pure capital gains. In a real world tax environment, it really would not be all that efficient.
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Ok, trying really hard not to be a jerk. Yes, I know that. You know that. EVERYONE knows that. Still trying not to be a jerk, but you are making it really hard...|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Essentially, the market fee is a 10% tax on revenue. |
Next, where do you live in real life that ST cap gains tax is less than 10%? Is there housing and high speed internet access available?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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Capital Gains Tax is on profit. The Market Fee is on revenue.|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Ok, trying really hard not to be a jerk. Yes, I know that. You know that. EVERYONE knows that. Still trying not to be a jerk, but you are making it really hard...
Next, where do you live in real life that ST cap gains tax is less than 10%? Is there housing and high speed internet access available? |
Buy for 150. Sell for 200.
Capital Gains Tax at 30% --> 200 - 150 = 50 profit. 50 * .7 = 35
35 profit after taxes
Market Fee --> 200 * .9 = 180. 180 - 150 = 30.
30 profit after taxes.
Change the tax rate and Buy/Sell price as you see fit.
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Originally Posted by seebs
Flipping doesn't have anything to do with "the same item over and over". It's just buying something with intent to resell it at a higher price. Virtually all stock "investment" is pure flipping.
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Originally Posted by Misaligned
Troll fail
You buy a stock. You try to sell it for a profit. Quantity is not relevant. But hey, thanks for playing. I was amused for almost a whole second! Continue. |
Ummm... no.
Buying a stock and selling it for a higher price is *supposed to* happen because the value of the business, which the stock represents, has increased. It's called investment and stocks are a *tool* to invest in a business.
The misunderstanding comes from you equating buying and selling stocks in the way that *speculators* do. Speculators buy low and sell high not so much on the increased value of the business the stock represents, but on the *perceived* value which is driven by lots of things other than actual value.
Perceived value of a stock that is *thought to be* 'hot' makes it in high demand, whether or not the business is doing well. High demand drives up its price. But if the quarterly returns show the business is tanking, then the value drops greatly and all those who bought on the bubble going up are now out a lot of real money.
Speculative bubbles nearly destroyed this country in 1939 and almost again in 2008 -- partly in thanks to flippers who were buying and selling on perception and demand (i.e., speculating, i.e., flipping) rather than on a reasonable real value of the stocks.
When people have a retirement account, they are structured to assume a return of about 7% interest per year which is in line with historical growth in Gross Domestic Product. IOW, the gains come from actual increase in value of the business which the stock represent. That's not flipping. Flippers speculate and try to game the stock market to get much higher yields, thus destabilizing the whole economy.
So how's that for irony? This thread was to applaud the supposedly stabilizing influence of flippers. And when flippers point to stocks, it pretty much indicts them for doing something truly evil... in the very ethical sense of the word that the cutesy 'ebil' tries to hide.
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That is why I had "investment" in scare quotes -- because very, very, few people actually invest, but a lot of people speculate.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Ummm... no.
Buying a stock and selling it for a higher price is *supposed to* happen because the value of the business, which the stock represents, has increased. It's called investment and stocks are a *tool* to invest in a business. |
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| The misunderstanding comes from you equating buying and selling stocks in the way that *speculators* do. Speculators buy low and sell high not so much on the increased value of the business the stock represents, but on the *perceived* value which is driven by lots of things other than actual value. |
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| Speculative bubbles nearly destroyed this country in 1939 and almost again in 2008 -- partly in thanks to flippers who were buying and selling on perception and demand (i.e., speculating, i.e., flipping) rather than on a reasonable real value of the stocks. |
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| So how's that for irony? This thread was to applaud the supposedly stabilizing influence of flippers. And when flippers point to stocks, it pretty much indicts them for doing something truly evil... in the very ethical sense of the word that the cutesy 'ebil' tries to hide. |
The economic problems have not, generally, had to do with "flippers". They've had to do with large number of people developing wildly unreasonable beliefs about what prices were reasonable.
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And unsound loans. the 1938 crash involved a lot of stock buying on "margin" (loans to buy stock more or less). The recent issues involved house loans to people that really shouldn't have been given loans, with the risks hidden away behind "Derivatives".
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Originally Posted by seebs
The economic problems have not, generally, had to do with "flippers". They've had to do with large number of people developing wildly unreasonable beliefs about what prices were reasonable.
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Wow, marketeering debate. I thought the opposition had been quelled long ago.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!